2.5 Conversion
 

I've just had the engine go bang in my 94wrx sti. I am very reluctant to spend money fixing it to end up with the same car as i had before, so hae decided now is the best time to start tuning. Ive been told that its the short block that needs replacing so want to go for the 2.5 conversion. I've looked at scoobyclinic and a few of the others but don't know if the price quoted includes all that is needed like the FMIC etc. What is needed and what are the rough prices. Also who do you recommend around the north hampshire. I'm in Fleet near reading, guildford etc.

Cheers for any help and i have tried the search before anyone suggests it.

The nearest sensible person to you is Len at Subaru4you he's close to Thatcham and now has a smart new premises I believe. l don't have his number with me at the moment, but I'm sure somebody will tell you. OR search Subaru4you, just like its spelt

David APi engines / APi Impreza.

PS the costs and extras spent getting the 2.5 in and running properly might run out to the value of the car. Hows your brakes? Hows your transmission?

Best thing might be to get hold of PAVLO on here. He has done a relatively inexpensive conversion and on the rollers on Saturday at Power Engineering got 505 bhp & 508 ftlb torque! Now that's the way to do it!!!! He told me, all in, including buying the car, £13,000. So look him up and have a chat, seemed a nice guy.

I'm looking to spend in the region of £4000 - £4500. Will this be enough to sort the required parts and have them fitted.

Pavlo's engine is a long way past a bog standard USDM 2.5 short motor :D


A guide to prices(Only a guide so dont flame me!)

2.5 Short motor £1200-£1400 + VAT
Front Mount Intercooler £1250 + VAT
Custom Pipe Work For Front Mount £200-£300 + VAT
ECU - To control it all - £1000 upwards + VAT
Injectors - £300-£400 + VAT
Turbo to suit the 2.5 £1000 upwards + VAT
Knock link, boost Gauge to monitor reliable running £300 + VAT
Gearbox to withstand the extra torque (6 Speed Secondhand) £1500 ish...
Various ancillaries, hoses & bits & bobs £100 + VAT
Labour to remove, strip old engine, rebuild old parts onto new block, refit engine £1000

Bang :eek: your budgets gone....

These engines have a way with costs creeping out of control...... :(

Alot to think about....

Give me a call on Tuesday and l'll talk you through the possibles.

David APi Engines / APi Impreza

:D LOL

If you are only going to run say 300 BHP and 300 lbft you might get away with your original gearbox, injectors.

£350 for clutch
£130 for fuel pump
£1000 for Power FC, mapping, boost control kit

Otherwise you can do everything else as you would for a 2.0 rebuild.

Headgaskets are similar price, block is about £1200. Hope your heads and turbo are OK.

If you want a 400 BHP + monster then it gets expensive. - eg £2000 on a gearbox, £600 on turbo upgrade, £250 injectors, inlet tract, manifold, exhaust, lots of detail work to finish it all off, 400 BHP does not come easy and everything has to be spot on = expensive. It will find any weak point on the car and rip it and several things around it to shreds most likely if you don't do it all properly.

Running at 300 BHP on standard parts is a lot simpler.

Doesn't really matter what intake, exhaust you have, TD05 and 2.5 will easily do 300 BHP.

Sorry, just seen Conrad's similar reply and David's as ever sensible advice.

So does that mean I could drop the 2.5 in and have it up and running with relatively few mods and obtain the others at a later date? Thanx for the advice everyone and i'll ring you later david. Cheers

Yes but you must spend on the ECU from day 1, ideally have the mapper there with the ECU as the engine is first fired up, which can cause logistical problems. There is also no point scrimping on a clutch if you will turn it up later, but you would probably end up doing something with the gearbox anyway.

For many/most it is far better to fit a 2.0.

Conrad, you forgot the:

Modified Oil Pump
Water Pump
Head Gaskets
ARP Head Studs

Etc...

;)

It's really scary having an engine built just how much all the little extras add up to :eek:

Do a web search on AXIS performance. I came across a thread on the I-Club board (Subaru USA) and they have 4 or 5 different spec short blocks at very reasonable prices.

Tim, didnt want to scare him any further, I'd already blown his budget! The true answer to "can it be done on a £4500 budget" is NO, not if its to be done properly. If you do the labour yourself then maybe....

Aha, found the thread - any of the big power chaps care to comment on the Axis stuff?

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59371

There's a Dutch guy called Wouter who's built an engine around an Axis 2.35 short motor, he's been keeping us informed of his progress here: http://bbs.22b.com/cgi-bin/ultimateb...2;t=000042;p=2

Some of you guys are paying too much.
Front mount intercooler with all pipework = £580 from me.
Clutch adequate for 2,5 litre is £300 fitted from John Pye so a good bit less, supply only.
Fuel pump and regulator from AS Performance = £195 delivered (£100 + £95) and I see others have copied this deal.

However if I wanted a budget solution to the problem in a fairly short timescale then I would be listening to David O'Brien at API Engines, especially if there was some form of warranty. A 2.5 project will cost a lot more by the time it is properly finished and will take a lot longer.

Couple of guys this week have had engines from Ron at Axis, so they might post some results/impressions.

Mark

By far and away the cheapest way to replace a knackered ej20 block is with a ej20 block with warranty, say for API.

Any other configuration just adds money, and money and money, due to feature creep, and future possibilities, not to mention insurance (difficult with capacity change)

I still say, that there is going to be a whole load of people who bought the 2.5 blocks via the group buy, that are suddenly going to end up throwing bucket loads of cash at them just to get them working in a safe manner.

No fun having a torquey engine if you cant plant your foot when you want, due to the possibilty of killing the clutch or gearbox.

Decent Clutches are cheap to buy, but not install, except for when the engine is out due to a rebuild, so if your thinking of uprating the clutch in the future, i would do it whilst the engine is out anyway, as the labor for doing that should be free.

Seriously think about what you will do

Hear, Hear, I've been saying that to anyone that will listen, since this became a popular idea late last year.

There are going to be a number of very disillusioned early WRX owners that have bought these short motors that can't get them to run right without paying a Kings ransom to finish the job off.

The beauty of most Subaru cars is, that whilst they go like the wind, they start and idle and run really well most times. If you do a half arsed conversion it'll become a temperamental bitch of a thing that spends more time being worked on than being driven.

Watch and wait is what l've been preaching, It cannot be made to run right cheaply. Why be the guinea pig? Let some others figure out the safe route and then copy 'em. Don't be the poor sod throwing cash at a project.

David APi Engines / APi Impreza

I do think it would be useful for some of the "big guns" to get involved with 2.5s. At the moment all the majority of develoment work is coming from outside the UK or by private individuals running a limited budget.

NOT HAVING A DIG AT ANYONE, generalized comment.

Steps down from soapbox and awaits flaming.

Mark

John Banks WAS the guinea pig!! :D:D:D

Mark: Send me a 2.5 and I will play about with it if you want. ;)
David. Exactly what I have been saying and I would add that in high power situations I am concerned the piston will nip in the bore due to the very tight clearance.
Time will tell and I would be happy if my reservations are groundless.

Mark, John has done probably 15000 miles with his now, and had a couple of issues as you may know from his project thread.

I have done over 7000 miles in mine, and its still going strong, boost issue to sort out, but thats down to something else.

I got my 2.5 short block early last september, so one of the 1st to get one, but i bought it knowing that to put it into the car properly it would start to cost, so it was bought early with a view of collecting various components as time went buy, and building up a completely new engine whilst i still ran on my 2.0. However, the rod coming through the block of th 2.0 put pay to that idea.

Harvey, i too had reservations about the clearances, and 6 months after buying my block decided to change the pistons and rods and have the block honed to suit. I know i have said it a couple of times, but 1 piston had a clearance of 1/10th of a thou, now thats tight, any real big power target would result in a problem i am sure.

As you say Time will tell though.

Its simple, if you havent got the funds to do it properly then dont attempt it because it will probably cost you more in the long run than it would have originally to di it properly in the first place ;) Does that make sense????

Now then, i have a nice strong, direct replacement, STi 7 short motor for you.... Form a nice orderley que please..... :D No messing about, just swap the bits over ;)

Sponaugle on NASIOC had 1 or 2 tenths of a thou clearance and his pistons didn't pick up at claimed 450 WHP on an AVO 600 turbo running nearly 2 bar. The pistons did crack, but not pick up, and his bores were not out of round either. On mine I got it quite hot, and the headgaskets went and an edge of one piston cracked, but again no pick up.

I think the differential rate of expansion between the piston and the bore is very similar.

For at least 400 BHP tuned safely it is a good engine with standard internals.

Harvey, I think you should be limited to a 2.0 for another couple of years, gives the rest of us a chance to catch up :notworthy
much like a golf handicap

Steven, I agree with what your saying and would recommend any 2.5 engine with forged pistons and rods. The price increase is not huge and the added reliablility paramount for people looking to extract >400 bhp.

Mark

Roger Clark Motorsport have this thing taped, but at a cost. Others are doing it, but keeping quiet. Our first ones are coming through quite soon. The problem as far as detailed work required is probably that there will be a great difference in cost in fitting one to say, an early WRX against a P1 or late STi Car.

Some running gear is more adaptable than other and to be able to have chapter and verse on ALL models will take a number of years, even if the converter wants to share the knowledge.

In the meantime experimentation is the only way for most with associated costs.

I worked out a simple conversion cost for U WOT and got to £5800 without covering all the angles properly, Barest minmum really. Run quality? Probably OK but not great.

David APi Engines / APi Impreza

If someone is looking for a big increase in power, it's always going to be expensive to achieve it safely, regardless of what is used as the base engine.

However, if people have to replace a damaged engine, and are just looking for a reasonably priced alternative to an engine rebuild, the STi 2.5lt IS a cost effective option, allowing for more power at a later date.

For these people, apart from having a remap, and some labour to port the turbo wastegate, I really don't know what extra costs are involved, over any other replacement engine ?

IMHO, some of the comments are getting blown out of all proportion.

Maybe David (API) could post the average cost of rebuilding an engine with a big end failure, and it could be compared to the alternative of a STi 2.5lt replacement.

Mark.

Stick with 2 litres and buy my short motor :D

Ive gotta agree with R19KET here... The guy has asked if it is worth replacing his short engine with a EJ257, not i want XXX bhp.
If the question was, i want to replace my short engine with a 2.5 and want to tune it to 500hp then fair enough, But why would you have to spend on unnessecary items if your targets were say 320/320?
We are talking about a brand new short engine here, not a warrantied repaired unit... Perfect replacement IMHO.

IMHO as long as you can account for a remap and maybe a fuel reg and pump there is not loads more to it.

Rob