AndrewC

Tim,

Are you not concerned about the gearing of the 6-speed, assuming that you will have a 7500(ish) rpm limit?

John, what about a TD05-20G with a 8cm² exhaust housing?

Andrew...

richto

Well I like the sound of 1 Bar at 2500 RPM!

However, I dont have standard internals. Its an Axispoint Racing stage 4 with Forged Pistons, Conrods and cross drilled crank. Also uprated oil pump. Im doing the full set of fuel pump, regulator, FMIC, injectors, 3" exhaust, equal length headers.

What would the spool up on the TD06-20G be like?

What is the Garret GT30R like in comparison and what would it cost to source in a format I can drop onto the EJ257? (Zilla is $1500 + shipping + Duty + VAT)

Im not looking to run very high levels of boost though. Say 1.5 Bar max - I want it reliable.

john banks

You'll need a custom uppipe, downpipe, external wastegate, intercooler pipework and inlet pipe and filter. I think Lateral could sort you a kit out.

Search on NASIOC for spool up on TD06-20G and 2.5. IIRC, it was 400-500 RPM later than the TD05-20G.

Andrew, I don't believe the 7cm^2 housing is a particular restriction since with the 06H turbine people have made silly power in the 7cm^2 housing. I think it is the turbine wheel.

richto

What would the performance of the GT30R be like - ie low down spool up versus pure power? 3" entry / exit certainly makes more sense I guess.

Lateral are working out a price for me.

No one seem to be voting to the Garret / IHI hybrid so I guess its between the 'Zilla' TD06 and the GT30R

Pavlo

7cm^2 turbine housing is 'a' restriction, certainly in standard form. So far I must have got the most power in the UK out of one. The biggest drawback I found initially was boost creep, which reduced power considerably as I couldn't support the boost in terms of proper engine tuning. However I would really like to be able to get a 8cm^2 housing as I am sure that I am maxing the flow of the current housing within sensible boost range (overall flow could increase with higher boost and race fuel perhaps).

In terms of spool, the only direct comparison I have seen between a 06h and 05h turbine showed the 06h turbine actually spooled at lower RPM on the same engine (Godspeed tests on Dynapack).

I think the TD06h-20g would be ideal for the 2.5, and the TD05h-18g ideally suited to a 2.0 engine.

Paul

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Yes, but I don't have much choice when it comes to something that:

a) I can afford - I bought one while I still had some money , and it was half the price of a built PAR/PPG box

b) Will handle the torque of my engine

If I don't like it I can change it later when I'm earning again...

Andy.F

For fast road use I would recommend sticking with the smaller td05-20g, it makes such a fast and responsive cross country car on a 2.5 engine, the immediate power availability coming out of a corner makes it real fun to drive.
If you intend to race the car then the GT30 is an excellent option, it's what I use on my 2.3 Sti and it's working well from 3000 rpm right through to 8000 rpm.

Andy

harvey

iTrader: (48)

I run one of Andy`s TD05-06`s 20G on the WRX Wagon which is somewhere over 400 bhp. From TD05 equipped cars I have driven I would have thought that spool and lag was very similar. I can only talk about my own experience but would think this turbo could be capable of 440 bhp or thereabouts on a 2 litre. On a 2.5 I would expect earlier spool and a bit more power.

John B :

I am surprised at the conclusions you seem to have drawn and the results from your 2.5 litre engine. When I purchased the Ion 25 months ago it was the only mod done to the car at that time and it lifted power on my 2 litre from 370 (VF28 modified) to 417 bhp with no other work. There was a continual process of evolution with a lot of time and effort, midnight oil, frustration, success, and surprising revelations. Step by step power was raised to around 585 bhp with 464 ft.lbs or thereabouts. From memory we started running around 2.2 bar and eventually settled on 1.8-1.85 bar straight accross the rev range. There were numerous trips to the rolling road to check on progress or otherwise and I think Bob will have lost count of the number of times he mapped the car but I don`t think the final results can be questioned. These results were only possible with all the supporting mods and attention to the finest detail. I am not sure of the validity of your comparison 30% and 10% but I know what I was able to achieve with the Ion which I still have. I think you are not comparing like for like. For a start you are running lower boost and tapering it off. The only reason that Ion is not on the WRX Wagon is that I am happy with the current power output (which was done on a budget and using some discarded parts) and with standard internals I have no wish to attempt 500 bhp which I think would be produced with that turbo and the current setup.
Spool on the Ion by the way was about 300 rpm higher than the VF28 when first fitted and Bob was able to narrow the gap with adept mapping.
The trip to Prosport was a bit of a disappointment but the equipment was new to them. I was unable to get a maximum power run because the car would not sit on the rollers but it did record 499 ft.lbs before the best run was aborted.
I would have thought a 2.5 would be capable of far more than 450 bhp with the Ion turbo.

john banks

I've tried higher boost levels Harvey, and the gains rapidly diminish, the temperatures go up, the duty cycles required to hold the boost ramp up and the ignition timing goes south. All signs of too much exhaust manifold pressure - ie. of a turbo whose exhaust side is too small to get substantially more power, or alternatively of a inefficient engine - it isn't a bad block because I've had two of them, the heads are pretty decent - nicely ported and off a P1, so the same as yours.

I would be very impressed to see a 2.5 do well over 450 BHP on the iON turbo I have at Star or Dastek using Optimax without additives. I'm not sure what I could do differently... I have the same intercooler, turbo, heads, boost controller and decent breathing. I've tried a variety of AFRs, but running 11.5:1 at various boost levels and taking the timing up to the edge it won't make the silly power yours made. Andy has looked at the maps with me also at various stages, and whilst I am more cautious with timing than he is, I think he agrees I need to be on a daily driver.

So we are left with three options - either my car isn't making the power it "should" (but 121 mph terminals would suggest otherwise and that was on the 20G), or we are measuring our power with different fuels and rolling roads, or the 2.5 just doesn't make power like the 2.0 STi engines. Pat and I have both noted that the 2.5 doesn't make 400 BHP at 1.0 bar like you might expect extrapolating 2.0 results. On the other hand, I found the 2.5 made very similar power on the 20G to the 2.0 when the same headers were used.

Andy's GT30R-12 is about the size I would expect for what I would consider to be mid 500s BHP, and he is of course running mid 10s at 135 mph.

Perhaps it is a combination of factors, but in the world I live in this is nothing like a 585 BHP turbo, but so are many Well Lane results IMHO. I think your figures have over-rated it massively. It is a nice turbo for up to mid 400s on a sensible rolling road without running fuel additives... in other words it does what it says on the tin, but compared to a proper GT30R-12 like on Andy's engine it is not in the same league for spool up : power balance.

carlos_hiraoka

so what is more efficient a 2.33L or a 2.0L STi engine ?

Carlos H.

Pavlo

Just a point of note. Andy's terminals are around 125mph without the gas on a FLAT drag strip.

Paul

john banks

The 2.33s do seem pretty good Carlos - I wish mine had worked (!), Pat and I both noted they seem to make more power at the same boost than a 2.5 despite the smaller swept capacity.

Paul, I don't know how many mph he gained with the nitrous. I suppose we've got more variables with drag strips as well, if the terminal times are affected by somewhat dubious timing gear and an apparent dip at the end of Crail. Probably fair to say that terminals are higher and rolling road figures are lower comparing Fife and Yorkshire

It will be interesting to see what Callum's car does at Dastek, although he has uprated cams in his 2.5, but again a similar GT30R/P20 turbo at the last count.

My point in response to Harvey is that I seemed to manage very similar power (434 BHP) to what Andy managed (440 BHP) on the 20G, I then put the iON on, and I can get the same without the methanol but no more and have a load more lag and a higher boost threshold, for what are minor gains. If I put the methanol in I get 10%. It is hardly a massively bigger turbo on that basis, and not really much of an upgrade. It falls a little short of what may be expected based on Harvey's figures.

If the iON P450 can do comfortably over 450 BHP at Star on an EJ257 on Optimax without additives let's see it Then I can copy what they did and eat humble pie

Pavlo

Given the options for bolt on turbos, I know where my money would go again. My opinion of my (now old) turbo is that it could do 500hp with just optimax and a 2.5ml/l dose of NF. I played with othe fuel mixes, but never got the chance to map them properly, I would guess my last try (at fuel) would have netted 530hp-540hp at PE if mapped correctly.

I would estimate about 490hp used to get 126mph terminal, which fits in with Andy's results from the same drag strip only 6 weeks previous, given the extra 100kg or so Andy was running with.

Next on the list is either a new development turbo from Deadbolt, or the same GT30R unit I supplied to Andy.

Taking 1lb of airflow = 1hp on fuel with octane booster, which seems to fit in with my results and MAF readings. Harvey's engine running at 6800rpm and 1.85bar would need a VE of 119% to make 58.5lb of airflow.

Paul

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

John, i have an offer for you.

My car will be off the road in a short while, pretty sure, how do you fancy trying my GT30 while its off the road?

john banks

The devil tempts me Very kind offer. In many ways I would love to if I only had the pistons and a surefire way of keeping the headgaskets on. If that were the case I would have bought one already I think, they just rock plain and simple. Any more on your gaskets?

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

Been working late last 2 days, and today, so not had time. Inspection day tomorrow, but pretty sure its the head gaskets. Will let you know.

The offers there if the engine has to come out.

Steven

Andy.F

130mph without the gas Paul
It may be of interest that last year my old 2.0 car ran 128mph at Elvington but only recorded 122 at Crail in the same trim.
It all depends which results you 'want' to believe comparing your best ever mph with my first outing in a new car seems fair though

Andy

carlos_hiraoka

John, but according to Quirt @ Crawford Performance the 2.33L which actually makes the most power is the one made by:

EJ257 engine block
EJ257 sized pistons
EJ205 crank

not the other way around.

Carlos H.

Pavlo

Your times at elvington on the 2.0 suggest the 'fast lane' terminals were optimisic as much as the slow lanes ones were pessimistic.

11.7@108 (slow lane)
12.15@106 (slow lane)
11.71@107 (slow lane)
11.72@125 (ooh, we've discovered the fast lane!)
12.01@112 (fast lane)
11.94@126 (fast lane)

You don't suddenly 15mph more on your terminals on the same day but go slower.

Paul

Andy.F

lol, as I said, you tend to believe the ones you would like to be true What were your lower mph's last time out

Andy

David_Wallis

well said andy.. same goes for rolling road printouts

Well I cant wait to get all my minor issues sorted and see what a big garrett goes like..

I dont think my car shows its true performance on a drag strip.. I need to get some in car footage of 70 - 160+ (cant tell as speedo endstops around 160) rev counter still moves as quick though.

Steven, for john to try yours he would have to borrow 50% of your pipe work, not a problem though..

John I recommend NOT trying it, as you'd like it too much

Now about those pistons.

P20SPD

iTrader: (1)

David, i know he would, but as you say, no problem.

Pavlo

Andy,

I just remember that day (TOTB2) having odd results, although the terminals at the shootout were odd at times too, I got a 12.1@97mph or something silly. I also got a 12.4 @118 on the same day (a run that killed 4th gear a little more)

At totb 3 I was getting about 117/118mph on the slip but this might be down to not getting full boost in 4th gear. On the day I ran the 10.9 I was getting about 120-126 depending on the runs, which did improve as I improved the boost in 4th gear, which was lower due to a reduced initial duty cycle on the AVC-R.

My first drag experience at North Weald produced 12.2@120mph, with a string of 12.4@118-119 runs. That was on the 2.0 litre with 20g and standard headers.

All of this is academic, as I am sure you would like to run against me properly next year, and I certainly think it would be fun. Would would be nice is a drag/circuit/RR weekend to really put the cars through their paces, I would be prepared to travel to Scotland if someone could arrange that.

Paul

Andy.F

I think you might find Crail a bit disappointing Paul, after being spoiled at Elvington the traction up here is not quite so good. There are a few more events this year but the weather has to be a gamble, especially when travelling 300+ miles each way.

I have been told that Edzell strip (even further north) has a better surface and the same cars/bikes run lower ETs there using the same timing gear. May give it a try at the next meet on 24th Oct.

I think there is another Dastek RR day on the weekend of 31st Oct which coincides with the next Crail day although being a Max Power mag day at Crail it will be busy.
Crail also has a timed handling circuit in a figure of 8 with plenty run off area for practicing drifting around if you like that sort of thing

John Harley (T-uk) has kindly offered to accommodate people and their cars at his farm which is a short drive from Dastek, Crail and Knockhill.

Andy

Pavlo

I think it would be a giggle, perhaps something for next spring if you still have the car. Perhaps a 2 leg event could be organised with a scottish leg and something in the south depending on when the 2 Dastek (keep it consistent) rolling roads i hear of will be comissioned for use.

Paul

tweenierob

Very interesting reading, apart from your gasket Steven

Order for Ion cancelled

R.

Andy.F

Just noticed this !

The Power FC only needs a boost control kit if you plan to exceed the original map sensors pressure limit.
This is not an issue on any MY's if you are targetting under 350 bhp from a 2.5, therefore the Power FC plus mapping is only £700
MY96 onwards are also fine on the OE sensor to well over 400bhp

Andy

john banks

You mean just use the original solenoid and MAP sensor then?

You are clearly not charging enough! So £1000 would do a Power FC and hand commander and boost control kit or Power FC and AVC-R from the sounds of it. Nice one

Andy.F

Re above -

Yes
I know
Yes !

easyrider

LOL