Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

Roojai,

I know the car you mean and he took £2800 for it in the end!

It had a 2.0l VTEC transplant! Perfect for a turbo conversion!

66 Blue

Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo??
otherwise 200sx S14a.....
St205 celica GT4? you may need to strech your budget a bit on this one...

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

The Fiat Coupe is a nice idea, but they are FWD and group 18 to 20 insurance depending on the model!!

My mate had a choice of a Fiat Coupe Turbo or a 200SX S14a. The insurance quote for the 200SX was £800 and the Fiat Coupe was £1300, guess which car he bought!

Celica GT4 is a very good idea, nice coupe looks, 4 seats, 4WD, 2.0 turbo, and only group 17 insurance.

mynickers

Fiat turbo's are great cars, but the insurance was stupid, I can get around £900 fully comp for a volvo t5r, yet, the coupe is near £1500-2000 which puts it out of contention sadly.

I love mrk2 golfs, but everytime I looked I found it very hard to get one that hadn't been mod'ed, or raped (or both). Corrado's are also quite an effort to find a minter, I am paranoid about buying a dog, I really am! Again the v6 would be out of my league in insurance terms, not sure about the G60, I would love one if I could get a minter. (V6 flew past me on the A3 the other, sounded fantastic).

Pug 306 rallye is a fine car, but the build quality issue puts me off.

I would be well interested in a Toyota Celica (1994-1999) GT4, not the earlier one. But I didn't think they'd be in my price range, and I would assume they'll be pricey to insure! Would really like one though!

mynickers

Gt4 insurance = £1209.80 not that bad considering, but still a bit steep, only £900 for mr2 turbo and performance wise there isn't alot between them!

dij

CRX 88-92 is excellent ,especially the vtech with leather seats.
Another option is a civic vti 92-95 either 4dr or 3dr.These have the same engines as the crx vt and more space in the back.However not as much fun or power to weight as the crx.

Why are people concerned about the n14 gtir's engine and not the s14?
They both have the same sr20 det engine.They suffer from oil starvation on the top end which is not a problem if propper oil is used and frequently serviced.I also know that they dont blow as often as some other Jap cars.

S14 is deffinateley the better looking (pref facelift 97>)and theyre easy to get with leather and AC (If youre into that).

NigelO

I've just read through this thread and am pleased that the Fiat Coupe has at least been mentioned.

OK, insurance is high, but shop around and you'll get a decent quote eventually.

Your £5k will buy you a 88 R or S plate 20 valve turbo. Should have about 60 - 80k miles and will almost certainly have had the £500 cambelt done by now.

They have an unfair reputation as being unreliable. Sure, they'll struggle in the reliability stakes against most standard Jap fodder, but modded, they are no worse than any other modded motor.

What you get for your £5k though, is 220bhp, 0-60 in 6 (bit of an art getting that with FWD) 155 top end, four decent seats, gorgeous styling (yup, biased I know ) and a superb characterful 5 cylinder noise. Handling has been quoted as the best FWD chassis ever (before stuff like the Clio Cup came out) Although its not as sharp in the twisties as an ITR, it'll eat it alive on long sweepers. You could go for a slightly cheaper car and spend a few quid on mods, in which case, 250bhp is available for pennies, 270bhp for about £500 and probably closing on 300bhp for around a grand. Torque figures are usually about the same numbers as the bhp.

The Coupe's greatest forte is its in-gear performance. I reckon my 3rd gear 60-100 in 5.5 and 3rd gear 40-100 in 8.5 and 0-100 in 12.8 are all in the realms of serious giant-killing.

Just to show I'm not a complete Italiophile, I had a Mk2 CRX 16v for a year. Loved it to bits, handled better than the Fiat, revved and revved and revved and took as much abuse as I could hurl at it (used to Hillclimb it). Great fun, but tiring when you're not in the mood. Sh1te for more than one passenger too Rusted better than most Italian cars too

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

Nigel,

It's not that the Fiat Coupe is represented, it's just that it didn't fit into 'mynickers' requirements for a car with cheap insurance!! I mean a car with group 18-20 insurance is not going to be cheap which ever way you look at it!!!

I do agree they are great looking cars, but personally (and that's no dig at you or your car choice) I would go for an Integra Type R if I were paying for group 18 insurance!!

787b

Hmmm, so the front wheels are carrying 200+ BHP, steering, and doing most of the braking. That's a compromise you don't need to make.

200SX
Scooby WRX Wagon
MX5
325 Coupe
300 ZX
2.2 VTEC Prelude (4WS)

scrappydog

err, who said this? IMHO the concensus was that people admired the fact that the chassis *coped* with 225bhp going through the front wheels, but I've never heard people describe it as "the best FWD chassis ever". The Corrado VR6 was considered more fluid and feelsome chassis in all the group tests of early Coupes and the ITR likewise in later group tests. Your comments later on seem to reflect this:

I would say that the Coupe fits the bill if style and straightline/sweepy-bend performance is important and running costs are not such an issue. The down-the-pub stats are certainly one of the best! I don't think an ITR would fit the budget either for purchase price though.
My choice would be either Corrado VR6 or 200SX. Corrado because it's chassis has been geniunly praised as being one of the best, the VR6 engine is a great lump and should be reasonably reliable. The 200SX because it's the drifters-choice, lots of scope to tune and is also quite reliable.
If, after all the running cost calcs, the VR6 or 200SX were too expensive then I think the CRX would be the next choice.

Andy

Dark Blue Mark

Yep, heard of a number of experts qouting 200 bhp as being the aslute max for a FWD car....

Corrado and ITR are always considdered as right at the very best of FWD handling, as Scrappy said. VERY different cars though. ITR for me...

MB

NigelO

Over 200 is quite possible through the front wheels, as long as you accept there will be an effect.

On the Coupe, the effect is increased tendency to torque steer (although this can be almost eliminated by having the right tyres at the right pressures). Also, wet weather performance can best be described as "eventful", but again, the right tyres make loads of difference. I still reckon an average driver in a Coupe will be quicker than an average driver in a 200SX in the wet. (thats a compliment to many 200SX drivers, BTW)

The biggest problem with Coupes is the front weight bias (about 2/3 ) This is great for standing starts (hence the respectable 1/4 mile times) but it hinders the car being thrown around.

I agree though, the insurance is probably the killer factor in this comparison. I'm 42 and "only" pay about £600, but when you consider my 355 is cheaper, it perhaps brings home that for anyone under age 25, the Coupe is not a realistic budget buy.

Perhaps when you've grown up

TopBanana

My mate's got a CRX in amazing condition.... brilliant little cars

stevev_ukturbo

quiet suprised that the Mitsi FTO hasn't been thrown into the mix.

had a look at one after I sold the scooby, the GPX MiVEC is a 2.0l V6, has near enough 200 bhp throught the front wheels, can just about comfortably fit 4 adults, a suprising amount of boot space and an absolute hoot to drive.

for £5 you can pick up a very nice example with FMSH and some nice mods, the cars look as though they go like stink and do turn heads, engines are very reliable if looked after and have the rarity factor as well. Oh and the engine noise on full chat is very nice, not as good as the flat 4 burble but does have a ring to it.

I ended up buying an MR2 turbo (rev 3) because of the fun factor of a mid mounted RWD car puishing out 250+ BHP.

Steve

Mark in Ireland

Over 200 is quite possible through the front wheels, as long as you accept there will be an effect.

I have over 300hp and about 350ft/lbs of torque on my front wheeled drive Saab CD Carlsson, torque steer is ever present when hitting the gas pedal on the bends and pulling out to overtake but its still nice to have the power there for times when you need it most, like overtaking lines of artics in one go without changing out of 5th.

Famine

^ What he said.

Now, I'm going to be slightly biased here and drop the Mazda MX-3 V6 into the mix.

It's not a terribly quick car (0-62mph ~8.3s), but it's simply gorgeous (having been designed based on the Porsche 924/944 - seriously, check the profile) and absolutely bulletproof reliable (I bought it off my dad, so we've had it for about 2 years between us and there hasn't been a single problem of any variety - although the rubber seals around the exterior of the door frame are starting to warp a little, but it wouldn't cause me to call the AA, or book the car in outside it's usual service schedule). Mazda nicked "What Car"'s Used Car Reliability crown, with the least often repairs and lowest average cost for all used cars.

The handling is often praised - I've never had an understeer problem, despite occasional provocation. I've never seen a bad (professional) review of the car - although apparently it has a "girly" image, what with a V6 being the new ovary I guess.

£3k should pick you up a decent 1995 M/N plate. They go from 1991 H to 1998 R (like mine!). Beware of any in "metallic red wine" as they are imports - the Eunos Presso - and should be insured as such.

The bad news? Well, they're perhaps a little on the thirsty side... Group 14 insurance (limit the mileage - I pay £560 FC PNCD and I'm only 26) That's about it.


The current vogue for the 1.6 version is to pick up a 2.5 litre V6 from the Probe/MX-6 and transplant it. It is essentially the same engine as the 1.8i V6 in mine, but bored out and with larger, lighter pistons. So there is no issue with extra weight upsetting the balance. There is a version of the engine, only used in Japanese MX-6s pushing out 210hp, amazingly. But again, you're looking at pushing the insurance up.

Standard car has 138hp, 118lbft, weighs 1100kg (2400lb). It will seat four adults and has a very large boot for the size of car (I put in a 7 foot Christmas tree with no bother - after being laughed at by Homebase staff when they saw it). It's no performance car - but it's quick, fun and will leave you smiling.

[/sermon].

mynickers

The are lots of really good handling front wheel drive cars, and you can get them to drift with lift off, and have great fun thowing them about. There are loads of hot hatches worthy of respect, Mk1 Golf Gti, 205Gti, ***** Clio, 106Gti/raylle (likewise 306), Civic Vti/type R, to mention but a few and I can see the sense in comparing these, but I don’t think you can draw comparisons with the l likes of purpose build coupe’s and sports cars like the Integra, Corrado, 200sx, 300zx, and the likes. In the sense that they are different driving experiences with different trade offs and compromises that all cars have.

As front wheel ‘drivers cars’ go I would say my money would be on the ITR it just has fantastic handling, amazing grunty vtec, relatively cheap to run and insure notoriously reliable, if I had the cash, I would almost definitely get one, they are great as standard, I am sure you’d still like to fiddle but I am sure I could be relatively content with a standard car. My only complaint is that it really feels like it would benefit from a 6th gear cause it’s really hard work on the motorway, but the box is great, close ratio smooth as butter and just as tasty. You’re not going to get a decent ITR for less than 9k unless you’re lucky! But as quite a few people have said, we’re not debating the best of the best but what performance fun you can get, for under or upto 5k that is reliable if well maintained, is as cheap to run as possible but without missing out on the ‘fun’ factor (I.E. low fuel consumption, tyre wear would be nice, but might be swayed by performance) and of course that isn’t ridiculous to insure. That’s the primary concern for me, and seems like quite a few other car-o-files in here, but after those it is nice to have one which looks nice, has a preferable image, nice cabin etc etc. And again some of these are worth trading off more than others when choosing.

RE: Fiat Coupe turbo, granted they’re a fine front wheel drive coupe, makes a great sound, has the looks and the charisma, and a good chassis, but a good one is still around the 6k mark, and the insurance is silly so it is just ruled out for those reasons alone because there are other cheaper better alternatives in my view. But I also suspect the build quality and reliability will not be able to rival the Germans and the japs I am afraid to say (don’t bite me it’s just my humble opinion). I know they’re better than most fiats, but I have read so many storys of Fiats falling to bits, and had the displeasure of being driven around in one by my dad when I was a tot, and having the window winder come off in my hands the second week we had it (and the list went on and on)!

For 6k my money would be on a Celica GT4, a WRX, or a 300zx, all very exciting prospects to me and I would have to say out strip the likes of a Fiat coupe. But I don’t think I can stretch that far on my first car, student loans etc etc, you know what it’s like you set yourself a budget, then start thinking of every car under the sun, and it slowly creeps up and up until you have to remind yourself you’ll be crippled with debt if you do it! Just to give you an idea on the costs for the above, they all actually pretty similar to insure give or take a few hundred squids circa 1.3k which is a lot, but considering my demographics and lack of ncb is not that stupidly bad for a high performance car.

More realistically at the moment the ones I personally like are, firstly the CRX I do really rate them, and it’s tempting budget fun, but it’s too small! Not the weird newer one, the old skool thing that looks like a giant trainer!

200SX is probably the favourite at the moment, good all arounder, cheap to buy, reliable, RWD drifting fun, easily tunable, insurance around 1k, but I am sure I can squeeze that down a bit, and **** it, if I get one for 2-3k I might even go third party (eek), the other strong contender provided I could find a clean one would be a Corrado preferably a V6, but possibly a G60 for running costs and insurance reasons mainly. Scooby WRX Wagon, a possibility depending on insurance but similar concerns as v6. MX5 I quite like but I always thought they were very thirsty, if I was going to get a thirsty car, I think I would probably be more likely to look towards a 300zx which I apsolutley rate, but then you’re creeping back up to the 5k mark for a decent one, and a cheap one twin turbo monster, you know it’s been ragged, and you know it will be a headache, add a whopping insurance premium and it stats looking slightly less exciting as already mentioned. 2.2 VTEC Prelude I do like, but I am not sure they are as focused a driving experience as some of the other cars above (just an impression, enlighten me if I am wrong).

If we’re talking real bargain basements and this is salary dependant option, if it is possible to find a clean golf mk2 16v, I’d be tempted. Volvo 850t5 another sensible option although not amazingly exciting compared to some of the others. I like the 106gti but I am really bored of small cars and the image that comes with them for a young chap like myself, and of course the attention of the boys in blue. However, if I could get a cheap version of her big brother 306 gti6 or raylle that would also be a possibility.

Post script

As for the FTO I do like them, I like most decent performing cars, but I don’t think it’s performance is enough of a pay of for the lack of practicality and costs all around. I think I would rather a 300zx if I was going to go 2 seater all out sports car. And well if I am brutally honest, I am not totally hot on the styling. And again while we’re being honest the same goes for the Pulsar gtir or what ever it’s called the thing with the freaking great whole in the bonnet that sucks in small children when the turbos spinning full! If that doesn’t say arrest me all over it, I don’t know what does (I Scooby sti scoop maybe LOL) just kidding, but you don’t buy an ugly little car with outlandish ‘sports’ styling, and freaking great air intakes to stick to the speed limit do you! I’d love to drive one though, they’re a mini-cossy, performance wise they rock I just don’t like to draw attention to myself for the wrong reasons, or rather form the wrong people. Apologies to all folk that own a car I have my dislikes about, it’s just my humble opinion please take no offense

les1

celica gt4, I've got an H reg A-spec car, 230bhp, 4WD, superb reliability, etc etc, if thats too old?, go for a '94 on new shape, 255bhp JDM WRC, but u won't get 1 for £5k?, UK version 242bhp, but not so many toys?, both cars will make huge bhp without too many mods.

Stiff

Interesting one this one as I`m in looking for the same type of thing for around 5k. Initially it was a blast in a Scoob that did it but then the age/cost factor put me off. (still not ruling it out though). I then just missed a modded black 200SX Touring (leather/air con etc). Skyline(ish) looks grabbed my attention and after following the SXOC forum realised the huge potential for these cars. Age/cost factor much better. Insurance quote- age 37, 0-no claims, 3000 limited miles, valued £3500= £500! Not bad, still on the agenda. Had a CRX 1.4 mk1 LHD a few years back. Went like stink with a slipping clutch and only sold it `cause someone followed me home from the supermarket and offered me lots more than I payed for it.If I was after a fwd car this would be the one (v-tec though). MR2 turbo`s up there too as I borrowed one once and it frightened the **** out of me at the time. Like the 300ZX too but heard too many horror stories of reliability issues and repair costs. The earlier Supra twin turbo would`ve been there too purely for the 0-60 (v-quick!) but a bit dated now and not sure about the twisties. Celica GT4 up there too. (never been in one but reckon good fun to be had.) RX7 infiniti would be my ideal choice (you can get one for 5k if you look hard enough) but when these go wrong (tips etc) they are VERY expensive. I hate looking for cars when I don`t know what I want!