NDT

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by EvilBevel:
<B>Oh dear, where to start ?

Wrexy: drivetrain losses are fixed, not a percentage. Think about it: why would you loose more when your engine power goes up. Doesn't compute. Or vice versa: when my aircon kicks in, I have less drivetrain losses ?

Stef: a FMIC would not even give one bhp more in winter, as you are already pretty close to optimal charge cooling. It may make a difference in summer, BUT :

. big chance it will increase lag, *especially* if you keep your dump valve, because if the large pipe work (unless you turn around your intake manifold and a few other bits ... )
[/quote]

What do you mean - oh dear where to start???
Drivetrain losses are absolutely not fixed.

Why not?
Increased power = increased torque at the same rotaional speed.
increased torque = increased load on gear teeth faces and increased side loading on the gears = more friction = higher drivetrain losses.

Re the lag, I remember someone at Cosworth (where I used to work) calculating that lag was far more related to turbo rotational inertia than anything else.
I'd agree that a longer tract may reduce response a little bit...but you may also get some inertial tuning effects when off-boost.

cheers
Nick

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

I'm not that mechanically mided so bear with me!

I know that heat soak is a big problem. Is that when the heat from the engine heats up the bottom of the intercooler??

Surely this is really only a problem when the car is stationary or moving slowly?? As I assume whent he car is moving there is enough air flow to prevent this happening to such a great extent??

Is it possible to create a sheild for the bottom of the intercooler, and reducing the amount of heat getting to the intercooler??

There's always the talk of lag, but will this be that noticeable on say a UK MY99 car with the smaller turbo anyway???

Arrrh.... please don't answer if this rambling is stupid, but I want to get it clear in my own mind.

I'm torn between a TMIC and FMIC.

Andy

Adam M

andy, msn messenger if you want to chat.

easier to explain in person!

EvilBevel

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR><B>increased torque = increased load on gear teeth faces and increased side loading on the gears = more friction = higher drivetrain losses.[/quote]

Mhhm, you are probably right: however, what I wanted to say is that if you would tune the car from 218 BHP to 400 BHP, you would not still see 40 % (160 BHP) due to frictional losses. And side loading can be solved with straight cut gears

&gt;&gt;Re the lag, I remember someone at Cosworth (where I used to work) calculating that lag was far more related to turbo rotational inertia than anything else.

I remember that comment, and I think it was shown on this very bbs in the dump valve thread that there is more to it:

WREXY

Looks like APS's advertising fooled me into thinking that the standard item was not dual entry, as they emphasise it. I'm in no way an expert, so I do appreciate being corrected as I learn alot from this great bbs. So many things I never knew have been learned from here.

Cheers,
WREXY.

GOD

uprated front mount is supposed to work well. Specifically mrt.


If you want one, I know someone who might be selling one now.

Big improvement on standard but without complexity.

Hoppy

Andy, I'm with you. Given that space up front is at a premium for water and oil cooling, isn't a TMIC with water spray the best way forward?

Richard.

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

Well God, the only thing is that I don't want to hack my bumper down in order to fit one!

Maybe I could wait for a well designed FMIC to come onto the market!!

WREXY

APS

WREXY

Hi Moray,

Last night I rang my m8 in OZ after reading your post, as I have also been interested in a FMIC and asked him about the temperature increases and he said that he had not heard of any increased temperatures from customers. I wanted to ask him because your post about increased temperatures seemed logical and put me off FMIC'S a little. You however have first hand experience of this and I trust your judgement. I'm just a little confused about FMIC's now and will be waiting to see what Stef does and how he goes with it.

Theo I totally agree with you, marketing BS. They want our hard earned cash.

Regards,
WREXY.

Stef

Moray.
Thanks for the concern.
I have had lengthy discussions with several people in 'warmer' climates who have tested these temps and found no significant increases. I will of course be monitoring mine though.
One idea I had was to try and fit an oil cooler in the place of the old tmic. I have differing opinions on this, but most seem favourable.
I will probably fit one as it certianly won't hurt.
Oh, and CK1's front-end has never had a coming togather with a tyre wall, nor do I hope it ever will!!

Mike.
Prices for the Hyperflow kit have yet to be finalised, as does a UK distributor. Once this is sorted I'm sure you'll all know about it.

Andy.
It requires no metal cutting but some modification to the front bumper is required. It comes with brackets for the number plates too, and apparently they've dynoed cars with the plates on and there was no reduction in performance!

Theo.
I know it's not a case of 'I'm adding this so I'm going to get xbhp more'. Surely all mods of this type are fairly consistent though? If it's added 34bhp to a standard car I wouldn't expect it to add as much to my mildy-modded one. Every car I know with a fmic has shown sizeable increases though.
As I've said, I will try it with my current turbo and ecu for a while and see how I get on. If I don't like it then I'll upgrade the relevant bits accordingly.
I much prefer to add things one at a time so I can see exactly what each thing has done.

It's currently en-route to the UK as we speak (DHL tracking number to hand too!! ) and all being well will be fitted next week.
I will of course keep you all updated.

Stef.

[This message has been edited by Stef (edited 05 June 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Stef (edited 05 June 2001).]

CraigH

I think the "Dual Entry" tag was valid when upgrading the earlier types? But then all later TMs were Dual Entry anyway.

I had a BPM TM and it "SEEMED" to make a difference - although it was over winter it was put on - not the most ideal time to test an IC.......

Anyone who is interested in a front mount is more than welcome to check mine out when it's fitted - I'll be putting up install photos to show exactly whats required.

Adam M

I would expect a front mount to do what moray says, there is no reason why the rad should remain as efficient.

As far as oil cooling is concerned I am not sure. i thought the heat exchanger pipe bewteen the oil and water was designed to heat up the oil quicker. t would serve to cool it down too, but I dont think the water rad is intended to carry out this job.

I would certainly expect the water to run hotter behind a front mount.
Upgrading the rad is possible, ask pat, but possibly not necessary.

Isnt the oil cooled significantly by the filter being in teh airstream beneath the car, which is unaffacted by the fmic.

Stef, oil cooler up top sounds v interesting, I like you style. dont know if heat soak would be a good thing in traffic. dont forget radiators are heat exchanger, which means if the incident air is hot, the oil will still be heated. Does anyone know what the under bonnet temperatures reach in traffic? cos it is jams that I am concerned about.

option for me is the blocked off ducts beneath the idicators.
one of mine has accidentally become unblocked and appears to be a great size for a tiny oil cooler! could run one either side, but pipe work may become annoying.

FMIC will yield more power. if deisgn is good. but I think theo is right here.

A decent hybrid turbo is a better move forward in that it will generate less heat.

It is easier to not create it than remove it once it is there!

Obviously both would be great, but in stefs position I would do a hybrid vf 22 first. especially if the car is meant for the track1

Sam Elassar

hi very interesting
i don't know how i missed that one. but unfortunately no one seem to know for sure. subarus are relatively very new in the UK.
i will be getting the APS FMIC next week i hope and to stop this confusion once and for all, i will be getting the car RR dynoed before and after. hopefully within the same week. also i will measure the inlet temps before and after to check the difference. obviously the map will need to be adjusted a little to suit.


MY99 UK, link, vf23 and soon FMIC. i am hoping to break the 300bhp barrier. right now it is around 280bhp (192 @wheels) measured at star performance which is one of the low reading RR in the country.


cheers

sam

MorayMackenzie

Stef,

Re: "Oh, and CK1's front-end has never had a coming togather with a tyre wall, nor do I hope it ever will!! "

Sorry, didn't mean to offend... I hope you are right and you don't have any more tyrewall incidents... just thought that, based on previous incidents, the balance of probabilities points to a very slight possibility of a frontal coming together at some time. Again, I hope this doesn't happen.

Anyways, another thing worth considering is that the more exposed and unprotected the IC is, the more likely you are to come back to your beast in tesco's carpark and find that some git has driven their towball/bullbars/door/kids-bike/shopping-trolley into the core and buggered off, possibly oblivious to the damage (but i suspect not), leaving you with an expensive repair bill and at best a normally aspirated trip home (although I wouldn't risk running it as the core debris could be ingested.

Moray

Sam Elassar

hi mark
the APS IC tests where done running 25psi. and the pressure drop was 1 psi only at this level. i think i have read this somewhere.

sam

R19KET

Sam,

Looks like APS have changed the text since I last looked.

It's very hard to make an informed assessment from a 6min data "snap shot". I'd also like to know if they were running 25psi(1.72bar) at 7000rpm, or if they actually mean the data includes peaks of 25psi, and 7000rpm. Like all polls, and statistics, it can be interpreted in many ways......

Anyway, I still think 50deg'C is high for a FMIC.

Mark.

Rich_R

Sam,

Think it may have been this page:

Sam Elassar

hi mark
i think you will see it says 25psi at 7000tpm but i think that was for testing purposes only as i have spoken to APS myself and they don't recommend running that much boost that high. 50c is good on track at this level of boost i think + plus they will have to have warmer weather there than here .

Rich
that will be great if you could do that to see what exactly happens with the oil. i will be able to tell the water temps difference from the link.

has anyone seen these little turbo water cooler that pace are starting to do? i suppose they will be an option to reduce the water temps. probably cheaper than getting a new radiator. just an idea i was toying with.

sam

R19KET

Without doubt, a FMIC is potentially more efficient than a TMIC. It's something that I've been looking into myself.

First of all, I'd discount any "test" figures that are offered by the manufacturers, based on "RR" results. They are very misleading.

To qualify: The vast majority of RR setups, are biased towards FMIC's. The fans are designed to point towards the rad', and have to be modified/adapted to suit the Scoob intake. We consistantly see temps in excess of 70deg'C on the RR. Temps rarely seen on the road. This is in part due to the engine load induced by the RR, but mainly due to lack of air flow.

Now, repeat the RR run with a FMIC, and the intake temps will drop dramatically, and power will increase, but not just because a FMIC is so much better than a TMIC, but because the FANS are better designed to cool it.

At PE, Bob Rawles intake temps reached in excess of 70deg'c, on the road, he rarely exceeds 35degC !!!!!!!!

Oil/water temps:
The IC manufacturer has to compromise between IC core efficiency, and air flow to the rad'. The denser the core (fin packing) the more efficient the IC will be, BUT, it will restrict air flow to the rad', water temps rise, as will the engine, and oil temps.

So the manufacturer designs the core around it's application. If they are making for the general "bolt on market" it will tend to be a more open core, so mod's to the rad', and oil cooling aren't needed.

The more efficient cores, WILL restrict flow, and may need an uprated rad', as well as an oil cooler.

On top of that, you have the pro's, and con's of "tube and fin", and "bar and plate" cores !!!!!!!

Just for comparison, and APS don't say what boost they were running in their tests, my MRT TMIC + wi, rarely, if ever, see's 50deg'C 0n the track (1.5bar held). Even at Bedford, with a blown head gasket , and water temps hitting in excess of 100deg'C
J's car barely hit 30deg'c (1.5bar) at Donington, though ambient temps were a little cooler.

Thought mine was running a bit rough....

Mark.

R19KET

Sam,

I'm still trying to work out the APS graph. The graph certainly goes higher than the 50deg'C, to nearly 60deg'C. It also seems that the "on boost" time periods are upwards of 25 seconds, without lift off, and gear changes !!!!!!!!

so unless the graph only shows 5th gear, and the track had some VERY long straights on it, I'm confused.

RE ambient temps, the graph shows just over 20deg'C, we had higher at Bedford......

Mark.

Sam Elassar

mark
good observation about the long on full boost periods.

what fmic would you recommend i know you have experienced the MRT FMIC ? and i know it works.

if APS send the stuff soon as they promised then i will have a lot of data and we will then see how good it really is. i have got a UK car so i am not going to run more than 1.2-1.3 bar max so i am sure it will be much better than my standard one. don't you think ? i have been running 1.2 bar for over a year now with the standard item !!

at the end of the day the APS is coming to the UK at the right price as well. £800 inclsive of vat from ND i think that is a great price. considering that the TMIC is more expensive from MRT, and scoobymania's is only slightly cheaper !! so i think the whole package is right. i spoke to couple of people who had it fitted and they think it made a big difference. i am not cliaming it is the best around ( yet ) until i have tried it, and tested it. you never know in couple of weeks i may say it is crap and put it in the forsale section but i doubt it.

sam

Sam Elassar

hi mark
when did pace start producing their FMIC ? i thought it was going to be one of these in development forever kind of jobies !!

what is the design like. the only one i have seen with the FMIC side by side to an uprated rad was the falkland one which i did not like.

but you are absolutely correct the figures quoted by the manufactures are very miss leading, but i am sure if you cut through the BS you can find what you want. the market is just starting to open up for FMIC in the UK

R19KET

Sam,

This has gone slightly off track. The point I was trying to make, is that the figures quoted by manufactures, can be "confusing". I'm sure that the APS FMIC will work just fine.

Just out of interest, and for those guys who have UK cars WITHOUT "aircon", Pace have a new FMIC for the Scoob, that also comes with a new uprated rad'.

The price, £725 + vat for both !!!!!!!!! They have to be used together, so come as a kit.

I've not seen any results, but suspect Pace will have done a pretty good job. The pipework is relatively very short, and routes within the engine bay, not via the wings. Certainly worth a look......

Mark.

Richiehash

maplin electronics temp probe and display about 20 quid. using a small drill drill the hose insert the probe,glue into place with instant gasket. fit to car. instant charge temp display easy to swap between cars so you can all get together swap the bugger about and see which is the best system.
just to add some more fuel to the fire has anyone tried charge cooling as i remember some good pwer gains recorded on an rs turbo wih one(revs mag) and they take up less room than an intercooler.subaru also fitted one to the legacy with a seperate pump and rad.
hopefully later today ill do some sums to work out the ammount of extra air gained by the increase in density caused by the temp drop,just need to find the old physics book.
richie

carl

Stef, would you not be better off taking all your goodies (except PPP) off CK1, and selling it (pretending that all the panels are original, of course ) and replacing it with an STi? Then you'd have 276bhp to start with, and providing you got the right one, forged pistons, closed-deck block, etc. which would respond better to tuning.

Stef

Carl.
I don't think so. There's something special about my ickle green UK Scoob. If you've got an Sti people expect it to be quick. It may well end up with an STi engine in it one day though!
Besides, after all we've been through, I could never part with CK1.

Stef.

Richiehash

okay this may be a smidge out but allowing for a few constants (pressure and vol) for every 10 degree temp drop you will gain 3-4% more air in the charge.
does anyone run water/methanol injection as this can really pull intake tamps down and as a bonus stops detonation as well.(more boost perhaps or less retarding of ignition)
happy boosting richie