nickw

This is curious - I've been contacted by several people now who have had "modified" ECUs and they are experiencing very different results. Some cars are surging more but appear to have a power hike, other's are now "flat" after the new ECU.

I wonder exactly how many flavours of ECU are actually kicking about at the moment ? Surely they can't all have the same map if this is happening ?

Maybe we are all guinea pigs and everyone is getting a different one ?

nickw

davel

All,

There is a known problem on MY99 and MY00 cars, Subaru UK seem to be hiding the problem. I have worked with Subaru UK for over 6 months with no improvement. I have sent them written notice of my intention to proceed wit legal action. As I need all the ammunition I can get, will all owners with the problem email me directly so as I can guage the extent of the problem.

Regards

Dave

sunilp

Sorry to be a sceptic, but does this ECU actually exist and has anyone physcially seen it being installed in their car?

Sunil

nickw

Well I hope so 'cos if not I'm driving 50 miles for nothing and will be most upset.

nickw

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

Nickw

How's it going?

F

nickw

OK, new ECU fitted. They also carried out a 15k sevice and cleaned the dump valve solenoid thingy that can get clogged up with oil. Haven't done much driving on it yet but initial impressions are of an improvement.

The hesitation present when coming on boost has been virtually eliminated. Wahey !! I say virtually eliminated because sometimes I thought I could detect a very slight hesitation, although nowhere near as bad as before. I now seem to be able to accelerate out of 2nd & 3rd gear corners like a normal driver without surge induced whiplash...take up is much smoother.

The car is smoother in the cruise - hesitation or 'hiccups' which could occur under constant speed are also much reduced although though I could detect the odd minor hiccup. Difficult to tell though with hard suspension unless on a billiard smooth surface.

Some have reported increased/decreased power with replacement ECUs. My impression of this one is that it is certainly no slower than before, in fact if anything I feel as if it is slightly quicker. It is definitely more tractable though, feels like torque has been increased or turbo is boosting at lower rpm - this could be due to it being smoother though.

On balance it is exactly what Subaru said it would be - an improvement but not 100 per cent due to emissions. A step in the right direction though. Think I'm going to live with it for a few more weeks before deciding whether to press them any further.

I know how frustrating this was - Anyone who has had similar probs around the North East is welcome to come and try it.

Nick

XMS

So what exactly are the symptoms of this surging/hesitation... how does it feel when it happens?

Nige

XMS

Maybe you guys have the surging problem cus you are running on regular unleaded (NUL) not Premium unleaded ??

Here in Australia we are told in the owners manual to ONLY run the WRX on Premium.

The reason I am interestid in this thread, is that my car developed a hesitation out of the blue the other weekend when I topped up at a dodgy petrol station out of town.
I have since refilled with reliable fuel, and the problem has reduced. (there is still some of what I feel to be bad fuel in the system).
Once I am through this tank, I will fill up with good premium unleaded, reset the ecu again and the problem should be gone (I hope!!)

Nig

nickw

Oh, forgot - apparently I have to run on SUL now for the new ECU. The above post is based on a tank of SUL. Not tried it with NUL yet.

Nick

JimC

Having just read this bulletin board for the first time I hope this might help some of you.
I have a MY00 standard UK spec Turbo. The surging problem began at approx 12000 miles only when accelerating in 5th. It has gradually got worse and is present 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th throughout rev range. I spoke to several dealers who gave various explanations but no cure. After several conversations with John Sherwood at Subaru customer services I received what was apparently 1 of 4 new ECU's from Japan designed to cure this problem. This was fitted during the 15000 mile service and if anything made the problem worse.
I was taking the car to my local dealers a couple of weeks ago so their engineer could drive it and stopped to fill up with fuel on the way. With a full tank the surging dissapeared and when I arrived at the dealers the car was running almost perfectly.(They thought I was mad!) The surging re-appeared after about 30 miles which made me think a problem with fuel getting through due to a vacuum in the tank. I have since taken the car on several long runs with and without the fuel cap on, and I'm happy to say that with the cap off it goes like a rocket rather than a rocking horse. The surging seems to have gone and it drives like it did when I bought it. Now I just need Subaru to sort it out whats causing the problem so I can enjoy the car again.
I know it sounds too simple, but it works for my car!

nickw

JimC - what happens when you go around a fast left hand bend ??!

Most cars after a long fast drive have low pressure in their tanks - enough to overcome the fuel pump ? Never really noticed if my surging was worse when the tank was emptier though.

XMS - Don't know if your Oz spec WRX's are similar to UK/European Turbos, don't you get the Japanese models ? According to UK literature, UK models are meant to be able to run on 95RON. I experimented with both fuels over time and it didn't actually seem to affect the hesitation at all.

nickw

NDT

Low tank pressure makes sense.....
if the fuel pressure's low and it's running lean, the surging might just be the engine cycling between knocking, reducing the boost/retarding ignition, then building the boost back up again. My tank always seems to have a vacuum, when I fill up. Needs a new vent pipe with a one way valve maybe?

Same knock related thing might happen with dodgy fuel.

Incidentally, i had a slight surging problem with my 98 STi, and hesitation at light throttle - surging has gone after ECU reset on Saturday.

Andy-D

JimC,

Very interested in what you have to say about the vacuum in the fuel tank possibly causing the problem. I will try this over the next couple of days as the problem is driving me mad at the moment. Also you say having a full tank of fuel reduces the problem, I'm going to check this too as it seems to follow the symptoms I get 'dissapearing' from time to time.

All,
I have reported the problem to my dealer who said they would log it with Subaru and come back to me, they said they had not heard of the problem (surpised - not!) and I will let you know how I get on. Has anyone else had anymore feedback from Subaru apart from Nick, if so what was it?

JimC

nickw - I just keep turning right until I get there!!!!!

Something I didn't mention yesterday was my conversation with International Motors. I think the guys name was Paul Bond and he told me that the engineers who came over from Japan diagnosed the problem to be the throttle body, and replacement units were to be sent over. That was several months ago. The next time I spoke to somebody else, who told me that they hadn't heard anything about this and the cause of the problem was still unknown!

I was also told that only a few cars had this problem. Apparenly not.
JimC

Andy-D

Spoke to dealer today. They said they contacted IM and they had not heard of the problem, YOU WHAT! Somebody is telling fibs here and I am at the receiving end.

Anyway I have booked the car in for a week on Friday for them to look at it. At the moment it has a de-cat down pipe which I am hoping they are not going to be funny about or try and blame for the problem, we'll see and I'll let you know the feedback.

Seems like the latest ideas are that it's to do with ECU, throttle body or fuel supply, that doesn't seem to leave a lot left!!

Really pissing me off now

Dales

I can't understand how it could be fuel supply as surely it would be more likely to do it under heavy throttle openings rather than light ones - and why would the surging clear as the revs increase beyond 3-3500 rpm?

Does anybody find that there is a variation in the magnitude of this problem between fuel types?

Personally I find Texaco minimises (but does not eradicate) the surging.

Dales

nickw

Uuuurghh

Think I spoke too soon - @ 150 mile run to Manchester last week across the M62 revealed the hesitation has cunningly been hidden around 2900 rpm on cruise throttle. Unfortunately that also happens to be about 75 mph. By the time I got to Manchester I was about prepared to carry on to Liverpool and jump out just before the Mersey....

I really am sick of this now, I wish I had never ordered the piece of junk in the first place - unfortunately I suspect that after 6 months and 15k miles rejection of the car is out of the question. Good faith doesn't get you very far. Sticks in the throat a bit when you read all the blurb on their web site about exactly why they won the JDPower award (speed of problem resolution, attention to detail - I nearly fell off my chair laughing). My dealer spends most of his time telling me what they can't do. Useless doesn't come close.

I heard once that Subaru monitor this site. Well hey guys - your product and customer service is S***E. All I want is a car that runs NORMALLY, sorry if that appears unreasonable.

I think that we find ourselves in one of two situations.

1. Late model old shape Turbos in general cannot meet emmissions regulations without intentionally handicapping the vehicle causing the engine to constantly hesitate. They are not fit for their purpose. They should not have been sold.

2. We all have a small batch of Turbos that for some reason either cannot meet emissions or are clearly faulty. They are not fit for the purpose for which they were sold. They should never of been sold.

Either way same result.

I have exams in a few weeks - after that I'm going after Subaru in any way I can. Anyone who wants to join in is welcome.

Nick

Julian

NickW,

Have you been in contact with Davel? Check his posts in this thread.

Julian.

tonybooth

After new ECU revealed that it was no where near a cure, I complained bitterly. Subaru UK have described the surging as a phenomenon and say my driving style accentuates the problem. They go on to say that they can do no more without breaching EU emissions regs. In the brochure the engine is described as 'inherently smooth'. Quite clearly the vehicles are not fit for purpose as Nick states. I have responded to the letter and await the next thrilling installment in what is becoming a right farping farse.

gregh

I wonder if any of you with surge problems could persuade your dealer to fit the PPP ECU temporarily and see if that helps?

just a thought.....

Greg

davel

Another communicae from Subaru UK
'The problem affects a minority of drivers according to their driving style'
They are suggesting there is nothing they can do.
I have penned 1 further letter following which I WILL regretably take legal advice. I am used to fighting lost causes having successfully sued a dog breeder in England(I am in Scotland)
I have tried an email to the SIDC with minmal interest, if anyone has direct influence there, lets get a mail shot done to see how many people this does effect.
It is now becoming clearer that Subaru were unable to comply with EEC emisions and rather than admit defeat, created the C**P cars were are having to endure. This is my 4th Turbo and this is not what Subaru is about.

tonybooth

Greg

Subaru UK have refused to supply a PPP ECU - even for the purposes of elimination. Despite all the SWRT work their seems to be little willingness for Subaru UK to work with Prodrive on anything.

TONY

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by gregh:
<B>I wonder if any of you with surge problems could persuade your dealer to fit the PPP ECU temporarily and see if that helps?

just a thought.....

Greg[/quote]

Dales

Davel

Your post mentions compliance with EEC regs. Does this only affect the MY00 cars then? If so, is it just a case of getting hold of a second hand MY99 ECU to cure the problem?

Has anybody tried this?

Lots of questions...

Dales

22b

tony,

just to let you know have had two full prodrive cars my99 and current my00 - both have the same problem whilst the engine is cold.

if i leave it idling whilst the oil temp rises...which takes bloody ages..then everything is ok !!

steve

ps, i can say that a 22b doesn't have a problem and everyone should have one !

tonybooth

Steve

Thanks for that. I spoke to Prodrive today and they say that one of their PPP ECU's may or may not cure the problem. I will wait for a reply from Subaru UK before taking any further action, but suffice to say I am starting to hate my car more and more, day by day.

TONY

nickw

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by davel:
<B>Another communicae from Subaru UK
'The problem affects a minority of drivers according to their driving style'
They are suggesting there is nothing they can do.
[/quote]

Really - well all I can say is I must know a large minority because everyone who has had a go in mine gets the hesitation, including but not limited to my Dad, various mates, mech at the dealership etc etc. Maybe I was subconsciously projecting my driving style onto them through osmosis.....

Then I had a go of another scoob (STI Type RA) and must of completely changed my driving style temporarily because it didn't hesitate once.

Gee, it's been my fault all along. Whoops.

Nick

davel

No, this appears to affect MY99(mine is MY99) and MY00 cars, I even had 1 MY98, but I think he had another problem.
The Final Letter is on its way to them now, I will have to wait and see what they say

Andy-D

NickW and co.

I know fixes to this VERY annoying problem come and go but I'd thought I'd share this latest snippet in case it's of use to you.

I had exactly the same problem as your first post, and I mean exactly as I printed it out as a description of my problem for my dealer. Anyway, I have had my Lamda sensor swapped for a new one and, touch wood, the majority of the problem has gone away. I can't say I get smooth acceleration between 2.5k-3.5k but the surging and pulsing, so far, has gone. Still annoying but a BIG improvement.
This may help you mate, I'm not sure if all is well now as this post has gone quiet recently but it maybe a possibility for you to try?

Andy.

Lambo

I think the ECU change is a bit of a red herring. An ECU is just a computer that decides what to do based on information it recieves from the various sensors, the rules it basis these decisions are fixed and cannot change.
Looking through this mail it seems that surging problems have materialised over a certain period of time, and those sufferers that have cured the problem have mentioned it was when sensors have been replaced or cleaned and I think this is the area that should be concentrated on.
Whilst some ECU's are probably faulty, I would expect that in these cases the surging would been there from day 1.
This is only a theory, so feel free to tear it apart.

Cheers
Lambo

PS. My car runs fine, slight surge for the first few minutes when cold but nothing to worry about, MY99 11,000 miles

tonybooth

edit

[This message has been edited by tonybooth (edited 14 February 2001).]