WRX280

>>For your information, I own a MK3 Supra Turbo<<

Oh so you own a Mk3 Supra Turbo, which uses a CT26 turbo. The same turbo, which you dissed about a year ago when you attempted to prove the MR2 Turbo was not capable of doing 158MPH, until you were so embaressely provied wrong (AGAIN) :P

Hypof*ckincrite

SteveW2

Cosworth427 - I apologise for being nasty in my last post. I think that each to their own and all that ****, BUT, it is a little anoying coming from the Supra BBS (which I don't deny maybe biased) and all the people on there that know a lot about cars (not just Supra's) and have proven dynographs of around 310-320BHP for stock J-Psec Supras.

If you claim to know as mucha bout cars as you say you do you would know that 1/4 mile times are largely down to gearing ratio's of a car as well.

There are lots of Supra owners getting 13 second times in standard cars, there are also lots that get 14 and 15 second times. This is the same for Scooby drivers and everyone else.

You cant judge a car based on what most people run at a meet, because then you would have to say the skylines run those times as well (as a generalisation) even though we all know they are plenty that drop into 10's.

As you can tell I've been to the pub at lunch and sunk a few wifebeaters and can't be bothered to argue with you.

You are entitled to yuor opinion, as we are ours. :-)

Cosworth427

LOL, you must look at the direction of where you spout your rubbish, WRX 280.

I didn't *diss* the turbo. I just found the belief that a standard MR-2 Turbo can reach 170 MPH laughable. The turbocharger used has nothing to do with top speed. My advise is to you is be aware of the ramifications of your posts, rather than put 10 smiles per post as if you knew what you was talking about.

I've worked on my 7M-GTE for the past 5 months. I have upgraded the headgasket with help from my friend outside his driveway. I have made every modification on the engine myself with exception of the front downpipe and exhaust system.

Now again, LOOK at the dyno measured at the wheels, http://mkiv.supras.org.nz/specs.htm It is at the bottom of the page, ignore the two manufacturer graphs.

Now LOOK at the compasison table for the 2JZ, notice the difference in A/R of the turbo chargers, notice the difference between intake valve lift AND duration. Notice the differences in injector sizes.

I personally love the MKIV supra, j or euro spec - but you people need to stop having these beliefs that J-specs are just as powerful and fast as any other export version - bar the 1998 onwards VVTis.





[Edited by Cosworth427 - 12/19/2003 2:21:31 PM]

Beef

Pillock.

There's *no* real-world performance difference between J and UK spec cars.

Besides, you're banging on about power - try concentrating on torque...

Cosworth427

Of course there is, it's called using the right gear.

Mean Horsepower = Performance. Don't make me school you on this, beefy.

SteveW2

Mr Cosworth, I have raced guys with UK specs and with VVTi's from the Supra forum and they will tell you that in relaity there isn't much (if any) difference.

It was only on the 26th Nov going up to the Westerham meet me a fellow VVTi owner give it a rip and neither cam out ahead. 40-50BHP down or not they are the same speed.

They will tell you the same. You should also note that the majority of New Zealand is above sea level where the air is thinner. That coupled with (o average) higher temps in the UK would lead to a lower power figure.

That point made, I don't beleive there is any difference. When looking for my car I test drove all but a VVTi and found no noticable difference between them. Including faster spooling turbo's that the J-spec have.

Beef

Ah - so what exactly is the difference between the gearbox on a J or UK then?

You seem to have some hard-on for the UK's. Surreal.

Cosworth427

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Turbochargers boost to required manifold pressure whether you are 0 ft or 5000 ft up. That's what a turbocharger does, it builds intake air pressure until a limit has been reached, NOT relative to what is at atmospheric.

Only natural asiprated engines suffer from significant loss in volumetric efficiency.

Doofus





[Edited by Cosworth427 - 12/19/2003 2:44:11 PM]

Cosworth427

I said "using the right gear" not gearing. The driver makes a difference.

Doofus MKII

Beef

So the same driver in either car would produce, er, which result?

[Edited by Beef - 12/19/2003 2:48:28 PM]

ScoobyJawa

Well since you've resorted to childish insults you pathetic trolling ****, then so will I you utter **** stabbing ****.

Other people are trying to be helpful to RLE as he is generally interested and you do is come along and diss providing no help at all. Troll.

We know what the score is, we HAVE MKIV supra's YOU don't and we meet regularly for meets, dyno's, strip etc. so we know the reality. You MKIV wannabe with your MKIII. (no disrespect to other MKIII owners coz I know several others who are top blokes unlike you).

LOL again, so does my Jspec

So what??!?!?!?! They still work fine.

Again - real world I'd like to see this please, except at high mph.

I never said that, I said they were capable of it not all the time, you said they weren't which is incorrect.

They aren't rare. I'll say again, incase you don't read posts properly - all supras from 1998 on were VVTI and they were built in Japan until 2002 - hardly rare

Mine and other UK RR dyno sheets beg to differ.

Theres no dreaming, mine and others do fact. You gutted coz your MKIII doesn't?

Well gee, doesn't that make you the worlds most knowledgable person on the MKIV then I say again, you know so much about them you surely must be the UK's most respected MKIV tuner? Oh, you aren't? Isn't that funny!

ScoobyJawa

None auto box and manual are the same, its the diff ratio that is different giving the UK the slightly higher top end.

SteveW2

So the supra doesn't have a normal engine as well then. Its just one feckin great big turbo?

I am a combustion engineer so please don't tell me air requirements for a flame/explosion/internal combustion engine. All engines will measure the volumetric air flow and adjust the fuel accoringly based on the stoichiometric air requirement of the fuel. If the air is thinner (which it is higher up) = less dense = smaller volumetric air flow which will mean that the engine won't inject as much petrol.

I am hoping that even somebody with your intellect may know what that means (actually you probably dont = less power).

Hope you undersatnd basic physics now.



[Edited by SteveW2 - 12/19/2003 3:01:23 PM]

axle

Tis ammusing how Cosworth427 bangs on about power but the very fact that the 2 cars are different weights gets over-looked. So whilst you bang on about 1/4miles being slower than UK "because of the power difference" you totally neglect the other laws of physics...

I refer you to the previous statement that I HAVE beaten a Hybridised UK spec Supra with my BPU J-Spec on more than 1 occasion.

END OF DISCUSSION ABOUT POWER! THE REST JUST DOESN'T MATTER! And if 440cc injectors are too small its not like you can't upgrade them!

The Supra IS a very good car for getting from A to B on decent roads...however I don't recommend it if you are the type of driver who like to tackle really twisty B roads and the like as they are a bit too heavy and would need better suspension and Brakes (The j-spec brakes are crap - UK's are much much better and were an option on the J-spec). I drove mine home over 200miles when I bought it. Got out feeling very fresh and relaxed, no back ache no nothing. Just a silly grin

ScoobyJawa

A good point I kept forgetting to mention, the brakes are truely awful, UK's are much better and were once rated 2nd best stock brakes behind Porsche. I'm going to be upgrading mine to UK's over the xmas break, total cost from toyota is 730 quid for the calipers, discs, pads, and fitting kit. I've spent a bit more as I'm putting fast road porterfield pads in, braided hoses and motul race fluid at the same time

RLE

iTrader: (2)

Yep seem to remember Japanese Performance highlighting the brake issue in one of their recent buying guides. Had no plans to buy a Supra at the time so threw the magazine away. Will have to order a back issue as I think it was quite informative.

ScoobyJawa

Not a bad idea. Though if you did end up with a supe with the small brakes its not that costly to upgrade as I said. Its fairly straightforward to do yourself as well, simply unbolt old caliper and bolt on new one. Considering they give performance almost the same as Brembo and AP at 2.5k and 1.6k respectively thats pretty good going!

Cosworth427

I noticed that people say "oh, but the j-spec is lighter and spools up quicker!"

Lets look at this way. According rolling road results, pre 98 J-specs top at 237 HP at the wheels, vs 265 at the wheels for the Euro/US spec. The latter makes 12% more power, and makes more torque at the upper half RPM in similar proportions.

The Euro/US spec weighs in at 1560 KG vs the lightest J-spec at 1490 KG. The Euro/US weighs only 4.1% more than the J-spec.

12% increase in power vs 4.1% increase in weight.

Do the maths!

lolololol, that's like someone hiding a cucumber in a plastic bag -watch out I have a gun! You like to claim you have proof, but you never submited the proof - and on the other hand *I* did. I hope you took a good look at that dynograph I gave the link to.

Oh this is going to be fun ....

Charlatan! Different engines measure intake air differently! For example my Supra measures "air flow" via a Karman-Vortex sensor, the J-Spec MK4 uses the manifold absolute air pressure to assume the quantity of air charge! The Chevy air mass meter used on modern V8's measure air MASS/density.

Why do you make half-assed assumptions that could easily be disproven within 10 seconds??

And why are you bringing in the word "stoichometric"? Are you trying to sound clever infront of this fine collection of JDM fanboys?? I know for a FACT that my car at WOT runs richer than stoich for maxiumum power. I also know for a FACT that low RPM, part throttle at normal operating parameters will result in a leaner ratio for more economy!





The turbocharger or supercharger's job is build accumulated air pressure within the confines of the compressor housing. Pressure is directly related to density within a given confines that the air in contained or flowing within.

I told you before and I'll tell you again, turbochargers INCREASE AIR PRESSURE determined by the limits of the turbocharger and NOT in relation to atmospheric pressure!

Gordon Bennet! Are you folks in some kind of idiocy-competition?!

ScoobyJawa

Does it take training to never listen to what people tell you? Mine RR'd at 194Kw @ the wheels thats 260bhp to you. I don't need to show you proof, why not ask all the others who came to the Rolling Road Day with me - RB5320, Andy Tang etc. This is not fiction, this was witnessed by about 20-30 other people, but I suppose you'd argue with them too? I could dig out countless sheets from the Supra BBS, but quite frankly I can't be arsed to waste the time on you.

You submitted 1 graph, done in New Zealand - wow.

You really don't know anything about MKIV's do you, only the pre VVTI cars had MAP, the UK and VVTI(thats still a JSpec you know) and EURO/US all used MAF.

Why don't you run along and leave people that know about MKIV's to advise. Or stay and keep giving the many MKIV owners following this thread a right laugh, coz you have been so far!

[Edited by ScoobyJawa - 12/19/2003 6:38:51 PM]

Cosworth427

Again, more claims made by you. The difference with the dyno I provided compared to yours is that it EXISTS and is corrected to ISO standards. Knowing the reputation of most rolling road facilities in this country, your figures were probably derived from coast down. Another trick to make the customer happy.

No schitt! Could it be that non VVTI J-spec is the context of our discussion in this thread?

Face it, its obvious you are exhausted and frustrated by my access to the facts. I'm not trying to upset MKIV owners, just trying to lay down the facts.

Have a nice weekend!




[Edited by Cosworth427 - 12/19/2003 7:13:08 PM]

scooby_si

But still, these always get funny when everyone gets pedantic reading into other peoples wording (read Si dont understand any of it so just carries on drinkin beer laughing ) pmsl
But this thread started as how good r supras & the answer is they have probably the best most potentially powerful meaty engine & true they do have a bit of weight also but coorrr wot an engine, the arguements about UK vs JDM have long been banging around even the soop boards but it is as i say PEDANTIC cause they are both lush engines, which we all agree on do we not? lmao & yes devil is in detail but the reality is there aint much in it! full stop draws a line narr narr cant say not [Si ooh baby was watching time travel thing last night now that was full of theories & BS but i think i've time travelled back to playground rules! rofpmsl]
tiz funny thou but i hope this is used as a lesson to teach children & newbies about how sillly arguements can start from either misinterpretations, poor understanding or just people looking for an excuse to start or most prevelant FISHING (couldn't find a fishing smily lol)
So back on track & since i've had a few beers now [puts handbag mode on just to join in kuz it is really mildy amusing ]

(look i can do the quote thing too god damn i'm guna bkum a professional trowl at this rate too pmsl)
but u can never have too many smilies they help eople understand when yer saying stuff in irony etc & merely jesting etc although i c this is of no use 2 any1 who wants to make their comments as nonspecific as possible [truely a mycroft trate ] lol
oooh im tired but just 2 do the smily thing:

lmfao
Si

ScoobyJawa

They are not claims they are fact - I have nothing to prove, you have, like I said 30 people saw the result so that speaks for itself, I do not need to prove it to you. And it is not a figure from coast down either - they don't operate like others I could name - again, ask the people that were there that day - I have already provided 2 names, Mark Kahn (Mkahn on here) was also there. We primarily use DIN70020 in this country - so you can't compare it to ISO.

Actually you have been harping on about the JSpec as a whole. And if you bothered to read the thread properly you would see that RLE is after 98 or newer. Now NOT ONLY DOES THAT RULE OUT UK SPEC (is this clear enough) it also means he has to get VVTI, so it is very much the subject of this thread

Access to facts - bwaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaaaaaa good one.
Funny that no MKIV owner thats read this agree's with you.

[Edited by ScoobyJawa - 12/19/2003 8:23:21 PM]

ScoobyJawa

LMAO @ Si, mate I'm just trying to make sure a possible new owner isn't giving incorrect information which is whats been happening.

There's only one person here fishing for an argument, look at his first post And it says something when no-one else agrees with him either.

Time for a beer meself I think Woohoo, its the weekend and better prep for an all day drinking session tomorrow!

[Edited by ScoobyJawa - 12/19/2003 8:25:08 PM]

Cosworth427

Claim of fact is still a claim...

Keep in context of MY posts please. 280 HP J-spec please. AKA the Twin Turtle.

You need a beer, poopra man, you're so tense after debating with me.

ScoobyJawa

Not at all - nothing like a good debate

According to your link that includes the VVTI then

WRX_280

>>>I didn't *diss* the turbo. I just found the belief that a standard MR-2 Turbo can reach 170 MPH laughable. The turbocharger used has nothing to do with top speed. My advise is to you is be aware of the ramifications of your posts, rather than put 10 smiles per post as if you knew what you was talking about.<<<

I post proof of real life experiences. YOU post some dodgy dyno graph from Mongolia, which you expect US to believe.

Nobody said it can reach 170MPH. You said it couldn't reach 158MPH. And you were wrong AGAIN, since i took out an ZX-6R on top end ... oooh yaaah!

BTW...this is a defnition of "Cosworth 427":

http://www.seghea.com/emails/troll.html

scooby_si

pmsl at clicky troll description
ahhhhh have we got a mass debate here then? pmsl
Si (& sense of humour a small child wood be jealous of! ohhh & is strong in him! lmao)

Cosworth427

Again yet more *claims* of proofs, yet no actual proof there within a debate.

I know you are on a wind up WRX 280. You have a tendancy to say "yeah you were proven wrong - nananana etc etc" when nothing of the sort has happenned - ever. (you need proof to prove someone wrong).

And you posted *me* a link to a definition of a troll.

LOL, go drive your 170 MPH java-applet-powered MR-2, twit.

V5

Bored now.








Go have a ****, Cosworth427.

axle

Lol...you troll...you forgot the different Diff, AGAIN!