apexi or hks??
31 December 1999, 06:32 PM
#31
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 1999
Posts: 2,694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I spoke to Jay (Firefox) recently, he has already removed all of the HKS kit from his car.
He is still giving it consideration but leaning heavily towards the Possum Link.
Just the Purchase of the Motec kit is over £2,200 +VAT. And it is quite diffcult to justify the extra spending for the extra adjustability.
Have a good new year everybody, everywhere.
Mike.
He is still giving it consideration but leaning heavily towards the Possum Link.
Just the Purchase of the Motec kit is over £2,200 +VAT. And it is quite diffcult to justify the extra spending for the extra adjustability.
Have a good new year everybody, everywhere.
Mike.
31 December 1999, 09:32 PM
#32
Scooby Newbie
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Happy New Year to all, we are already in it and UK will follow soon!
I totally agree that this is one of many timewasting debates and this is why I contributed.
I will happily communicate with people off line and, as Lee puts it - 'share' experience.
I do not understand paranoia about my email address and Lee's comments in this direction. What would he like to know?
It may be a cultural difference but you people in the UK seem to have a much better stomach for lots of things than the rest of the mankind.
Bob Rawle deserves another credit for being the way he was in his last thread although he would have have been the last to say something.
Fuunily enough, even Mike Tuckwood realised it was better to be wise and, while he did not answer crucial questions other members asked him, decided it was better to be prudent than stubborn.
In the end, let us hope that Link products will find the place they deserve in the UK and a number of brilliant cars and flops will be the best indicator of who knows and who doesn't.
There seems to be an extraordinary large number of people in the UK who know how to set up the PossumLink properly. I invite all those with PossumLinks to feed back their experience, good or bad. Online, of course.
Henry G.
I totally agree that this is one of many timewasting debates and this is why I contributed.
I will happily communicate with people off line and, as Lee puts it - 'share' experience.
I do not understand paranoia about my email address and Lee's comments in this direction. What would he like to know?
It may be a cultural difference but you people in the UK seem to have a much better stomach for lots of things than the rest of the mankind.
Bob Rawle deserves another credit for being the way he was in his last thread although he would have have been the last to say something.
Fuunily enough, even Mike Tuckwood realised it was better to be wise and, while he did not answer crucial questions other members asked him, decided it was better to be prudent than stubborn.
In the end, let us hope that Link products will find the place they deserve in the UK and a number of brilliant cars and flops will be the best indicator of who knows and who doesn't.
There seems to be an extraordinary large number of people in the UK who know how to set up the PossumLink properly. I invite all those with PossumLinks to feed back their experience, good or bad. Online, of course.
Henry G.
31 December 1999, 11:54 PM
#33
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lee,
Your post implies to me that fuel system modificatios are necessary i using a boost controller. This is not so if the boost is kept within the range of the maps in the stock ECU. It would only be necessary if your set boost level is leading to fuel cut. I know that you know this from your posts on using the bleed valve to control boost, but maybe your post might have misled some people.
Your post implies to me that fuel system modificatios are necessary i using a boost controller. This is not so if the boost is kept within the range of the maps in the stock ECU. It would only be necessary if your set boost level is leading to fuel cut. I know that you know this from your posts on using the bleed valve to control boost, but maybe your post might have misled some people.
01 January 2000, 02:25 AM
#34
Former Sponsor
Gents, Karlo is not in the market for an ecu fix. Whatever benefits the Link has will not suit his requirement.
My experience tells me that fuel "quantity" is not the issue. In any case Karlo has a "N" reg car which has special considerations on its own.
I had a good time tonight, I hope you all did
Bob
My experience tells me that fuel "quantity" is not the issue. In any case Karlo has a "N" reg car which has special considerations on its own.
I had a good time tonight, I hope you all did
Bob
01 January 2000, 05:31 AM
#35
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ALL THE BEST FOR THE NEW YEAR!!!!!
I HOPE YOU ALL HAD A GOOD ONE LIKE I DID!!!
PLEASE LET ME KNOW MORE ABOUT THE LINK FOR A 'N' REG SUBARU UK SPEC CAR PLEASE!!
HOPEFULLY I WILL DECIDE SOMETIME THIS YEAR!!!HEHEEH
I HOPE YOU ALL HAD A GOOD ONE LIKE I DID!!!
PLEASE LET ME KNOW MORE ABOUT THE LINK FOR A 'N' REG SUBARU UK SPEC CAR PLEASE!!
HOPEFULLY I WILL DECIDE SOMETIME THIS YEAR!!!HEHEEH
01 January 2000, 02:54 PM
#36
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Happy New Millennium!!
First an appology to Bob, for bringing up, or re-iterating issues regarding his personal circumstances. Sorry Bob!
Second, it's nice to see that *everyone* appreciates the valuable experience which Bob has aquired over many years and is kindly willing to share with the rest of the community. Keep up the good work, Bob! :-)
Now, back to the point at hand...
I'm guessing here, kangaroo, that by "changeable" you mean generic products, ie ones that may go onto any vehicle. In this case, I'de agree that the Link is NOT the right way to go. However, and without trying to shamelessly plug the Link, I will try and point something out, that's perhaps not immediately apparent....
Splitting the cost over four years comes to, what, UKP 125 per year (if you were to write off the cost rather than try to re-sell it). This is miniscule compared to the cost of the fuel you will be using over the same time. Moreover, it is entirely possible that you may get the same performance out of the Link on 95 RON as you can out of the JECS with add-ons on 98. It shouldn't take too long to recover the cost.... again this is *ONLY* a thought, *NOT* a recommendation. Anyway, enough about the Link.
As far as HKS kit goes, it is SOLID. Having used quite a bit of said stuff on a previous car (not a Scooby though) I can say that yes, it is expensive, but you get what you pay for. It is good kit. I'm not in a position to comment about APEXi since I haven't used any of said kit.
Now, at the risk of contradicting Bob, I would say that fueling *could* be an issue. If you are going to continue to use the JECS ECU and you up the boost, you could have a couple of problems....
a) the standard MAP sensor ain't no good over about 16 to 17 psi (or at least it becomes non-linear). This could cause the mixture to lean out under WOT. It may be that you have sufficient fuel under WOT anyway (IIRC my car is running quite rich under WOT). Be careful, and if in doubt check it either on the rollers or by fitting a Knock Link (small, *generic* box :-) Also, remember the overboost cut-off at 4 volts. This will limit the amount of boost you can run before the injectors / ignition shut down. You could fit a 250kPa MAP sensor [Bob, you were absolutley right, starting on a cold morning is "interesting" with one of these!] to get round the overboost shutdown problem (and NO, this is not like the SuperChips which fools the ECU by simply clamping the voltage. It is still linear, just with a shallower slope)
b) The JECS fuel maps weren't designed for higher boost and will be wrong, or at the very least, non-optimal, for high boost conditions. Of course if you can up the fuel pressure to compensate for the lower MAP reading the fuelling should be back to where it should be (note this is only of interest under WOT when the ECU is running in open loop, when in granny mode it's closed loop with the Lambda sensor allowing mixture adjustment [if it's working, that is :-)])
*NEITHER* of these are insurmountable with HKS kit. You can address both at the same time with something like a PFC-FCON or FCON-V but you're talking more money than the Possum Link for something that isn't entirely generic [FCON-V can run the car without the JECS, IIRC, and you'de just need a different loom adapter for another car... PFC-FCON is car specific by virtue of its EPROM] Check out HKS' website for more (accurate) info.
Alternatively you could address the fuelling "problem" (if there is one) with something like an AIC III. This could compensate for any leaning out and it IS entirely generic :-) You could also use the AFR to indicate a higher flow rate from the MAF/AFM sensor, but there have been problems reported with the AFR.
Ignition timing can be corrected but it would appear that the only two HKS units capable of this are the PFC-FCON and FCON-V, both of which are significantly more expensive than the Link (but still a lot cheaper than Motec... but then they don't allow you to map individual cylinders like the Motec). As mentioned before, the PFC-FCON is probably out of the question because it's not generic. The FCON-V may do the trick.....
And finally.... I have a 1995/6 JECS ECU lying around on my desk.... I'm scrutinising it closely.... I'm a believer in the Open Source community and Freeware. I don't believe in bolt-on units that fool the OEM ECU. That's all I'll say for now.
Cheers,
Pat.
First an appology to Bob, for bringing up, or re-iterating issues regarding his personal circumstances. Sorry Bob!
Second, it's nice to see that *everyone* appreciates the valuable experience which Bob has aquired over many years and is kindly willing to share with the rest of the community. Keep up the good work, Bob! :-)
Now, back to the point at hand...
I'm guessing here, kangaroo, that by "changeable" you mean generic products, ie ones that may go onto any vehicle. In this case, I'de agree that the Link is NOT the right way to go. However, and without trying to shamelessly plug the Link, I will try and point something out, that's perhaps not immediately apparent....
Splitting the cost over four years comes to, what, UKP 125 per year (if you were to write off the cost rather than try to re-sell it). This is miniscule compared to the cost of the fuel you will be using over the same time. Moreover, it is entirely possible that you may get the same performance out of the Link on 95 RON as you can out of the JECS with add-ons on 98. It shouldn't take too long to recover the cost.... again this is *ONLY* a thought, *NOT* a recommendation. Anyway, enough about the Link.
As far as HKS kit goes, it is SOLID. Having used quite a bit of said stuff on a previous car (not a Scooby though) I can say that yes, it is expensive, but you get what you pay for. It is good kit. I'm not in a position to comment about APEXi since I haven't used any of said kit.
Now, at the risk of contradicting Bob, I would say that fueling *could* be an issue. If you are going to continue to use the JECS ECU and you up the boost, you could have a couple of problems....
a) the standard MAP sensor ain't no good over about 16 to 17 psi (or at least it becomes non-linear). This could cause the mixture to lean out under WOT. It may be that you have sufficient fuel under WOT anyway (IIRC my car is running quite rich under WOT). Be careful, and if in doubt check it either on the rollers or by fitting a Knock Link (small, *generic* box :-) Also, remember the overboost cut-off at 4 volts. This will limit the amount of boost you can run before the injectors / ignition shut down. You could fit a 250kPa MAP sensor [Bob, you were absolutley right, starting on a cold morning is "interesting" with one of these!] to get round the overboost shutdown problem (and NO, this is not like the SuperChips which fools the ECU by simply clamping the voltage. It is still linear, just with a shallower slope)
b) The JECS fuel maps weren't designed for higher boost and will be wrong, or at the very least, non-optimal, for high boost conditions. Of course if you can up the fuel pressure to compensate for the lower MAP reading the fuelling should be back to where it should be (note this is only of interest under WOT when the ECU is running in open loop, when in granny mode it's closed loop with the Lambda sensor allowing mixture adjustment [if it's working, that is :-)])
*NEITHER* of these are insurmountable with HKS kit. You can address both at the same time with something like a PFC-FCON or FCON-V but you're talking more money than the Possum Link for something that isn't entirely generic [FCON-V can run the car without the JECS, IIRC, and you'de just need a different loom adapter for another car... PFC-FCON is car specific by virtue of its EPROM] Check out HKS' website for more (accurate) info.
Alternatively you could address the fuelling "problem" (if there is one) with something like an AIC III. This could compensate for any leaning out and it IS entirely generic :-) You could also use the AFR to indicate a higher flow rate from the MAF/AFM sensor, but there have been problems reported with the AFR.
Ignition timing can be corrected but it would appear that the only two HKS units capable of this are the PFC-FCON and FCON-V, both of which are significantly more expensive than the Link (but still a lot cheaper than Motec... but then they don't allow you to map individual cylinders like the Motec). As mentioned before, the PFC-FCON is probably out of the question because it's not generic. The FCON-V may do the trick.....
And finally.... I have a 1995/6 JECS ECU lying around on my desk.... I'm scrutinising it closely.... I'm a believer in the Open Source community and Freeware. I don't believe in bolt-on units that fool the OEM ECU. That's all I'll say for now.
Cheers,
Pat.
01 January 2000, 04:42 PM
#37
Former Sponsor
For interest ... the map sensor of the MY92-96 cars are indeed only linear up to about 17 psi, later ones are linear up to 20 psi though. A Link won't worry too much about the linearity because above 1 bar it uses the same row of zones wether its 1.1, 1.2 etc so fueling up here is dependant on the max consistant boost you decide to use. So the circumstances are slightly different depending on which MY car is involved. Later cars (especially STi's) seem to be very overfueled as a matter of course so a bit more boost doesn't hurt. Its vital to check it though and you don't need anything more than a fast dvm to do that if you know what to do. The issue of boost cut looms over the MY92-96 cars , again due to the map sensor callibration. I suspect that the later map on the early cars is a good "fix" but I have not tried it. (better than the Cossie one I think)
Like the sound of "freeware" Pat, that dil socket is very inviting isn't it.
Again for interest, there are Link products available that split out the separate parts of the ecu software and enable fuel, boost, timing etc to be "intercepted" and varied up or down like the ecu. These compete well with the HKS/Apexi type products but are not as well known. The fuel module can adjust the maf or map signal, you choose, to modify fueling up or down.
At the end of the day you "pays your money" as they say. HKS is easy to fit and use as it alters overall fuel, Link stuff still has to be "mapped" and is more complex and less user friendly because of it.
Bob
Like the sound of "freeware" Pat, that dil socket is very inviting isn't it.
Again for interest, there are Link products available that split out the separate parts of the ecu software and enable fuel, boost, timing etc to be "intercepted" and varied up or down like the ecu. These compete well with the HKS/Apexi type products but are not as well known. The fuel module can adjust the maf or map signal, you choose, to modify fueling up or down.
At the end of the day you "pays your money" as they say. HKS is easy to fit and use as it alters overall fuel, Link stuff still has to be "mapped" and is more complex and less user friendly because of it.
Bob
02 January 2000, 10:14 PM
#38
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 1,821
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
****e... I go away for a few days and all this happens...
Hi guys.... Hey Bob, Mike and Mark.. hope you had a great Xmas and New Year ?
Reet then.....down to business...
I did run HKS kit... FCON V, Induction kit, exhaust, EVC IV, EVC IV Pro, GCC II, FCD... All at different stages, on different scoobs.
The kit is top notch... but you pay for it.
The FCON V alone is more than the Link. The reason I have removed it, is because it doesnt fit in with my future plans. I want flexibility, but the FCON V is only dealer tunable (I know the GCC allows for some flexibility).
I have looked at many different management systems, and each fills a specific requirement and budget. GEMS, Haltech, Autronics, Motech, Unichip, Apexi, HKS, etc...
I have decided to go for Possum Link and import it myself. For several reasons- to save money, and the fact that I have imported stuff before.
I believe I have the required knowledge to map the car, but if I do stumble onto any Link specific problems, I hope I can fall back on my friends (Mark and Bob) - Whos opinion and knowledge I value very dearly.
Anyways.. back to the topic... What would you like to know about the HKS stuff ? I am unbiased towards everything...Except gorgeous looking babes....
I am not a dealer or tuner... but just another "enthusiast"
J.
Hi guys.... Hey Bob, Mike and Mark.. hope you had a great Xmas and New Year ?
Reet then.....down to business...
I did run HKS kit... FCON V, Induction kit, exhaust, EVC IV, EVC IV Pro, GCC II, FCD... All at different stages, on different scoobs.
The kit is top notch... but you pay for it.
The FCON V alone is more than the Link. The reason I have removed it, is because it doesnt fit in with my future plans. I want flexibility, but the FCON V is only dealer tunable (I know the GCC allows for some flexibility).
I have looked at many different management systems, and each fills a specific requirement and budget. GEMS, Haltech, Autronics, Motech, Unichip, Apexi, HKS, etc...
I have decided to go for Possum Link and import it myself. For several reasons- to save money, and the fact that I have imported stuff before.
I believe I have the required knowledge to map the car, but if I do stumble onto any Link specific problems, I hope I can fall back on my friends (Mark and Bob) - Whos opinion and knowledge I value very dearly.
Anyways.. back to the topic... What would you like to know about the HKS stuff ? I am unbiased towards everything...Except gorgeous looking babes....
I am not a dealer or tuner... but just another "enthusiast"
J.
03 January 2000, 01:55 AM
#40
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bob,
That 28 pin socket is very interesting indeed.... a 64kx16 EPROM goes in there... AFAICT, a custom job done by Fujitsu with multiplexed address and data lines. Thus far I've downloaded the JECS control program and maps, positively identified power and ground lines (the usual) unconnected pins, what appears to the be 16 bit address/data bus plus three control signals, one from the CPU (presumably ALE) and two from the other chip (perhaps high/low byte enable or nCE and nOE).
Next task is to build a wee mezzannine board with a couple of latches and EPROMS to try to get the ECU running off the original maps on off-board PROMS.... to this end (and to help with some other projects) I'll be picking up a logic analyser later this week (if ComSol are open, that is :-)
After that, well, I don't really want to say until I'm sure it can be done.... "watch this space"... :-)
Cheers,
Pat.
That 28 pin socket is very interesting indeed.... a 64kx16 EPROM goes in there... AFAICT, a custom job done by Fujitsu with multiplexed address and data lines. Thus far I've downloaded the JECS control program and maps, positively identified power and ground lines (the usual) unconnected pins, what appears to the be 16 bit address/data bus plus three control signals, one from the CPU (presumably ALE) and two from the other chip (perhaps high/low byte enable or nCE and nOE).
Next task is to build a wee mezzannine board with a couple of latches and EPROMS to try to get the ECU running off the original maps on off-board PROMS.... to this end (and to help with some other projects) I'll be picking up a logic analyser later this week (if ComSol are open, that is :-)
After that, well, I don't really want to say until I'm sure it can be done.... "watch this space"... :-)
Cheers,
Pat.
03 January 2000, 05:21 PM
#42
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gavin,
Indeed, I had come across this page before. It's one of a few places that show you the innards of the JECS and the info on the EPROM. If you want even more gory details of the JECS unit, point your browser at:
Indeed, I had come across this page before. It's one of a few places that show you the innards of the JECS and the info on the EPROM. If you want even more gory details of the JECS unit, point your browser at:
03 January 2000, 11:14 PM
#43
Former Sponsor
Brilliant if you can do it Pat, Racelogic already offer an upgrade by this means and the PE phase I and GGR upgrades are also done in this way. Thanks for the site info. well worth a look
Edit
Hmm, didn't mean this to sound as though it had all been done before since Pat may be planning something in a different way. Takes a deal of understanding IMHO.
Bob
[This message has been edited by Bob Rawle (edited 03-01-2000).]
Edit
Hmm, didn't mean this to sound as though it had all been done before since Pat may be planning something in a different way. Takes a deal of understanding IMHO.
Bob
[This message has been edited by Bob Rawle (edited 03-01-2000).]
06 January 2000, 01:20 AM
#44
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 679
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh, alright then, I'll let the cat out of the bag, and I'll probably regret the day I wrote this, but what the hell, eh?
OK, the real gem is not the little mezzanine board that takes the 27C256 EPROMs, but the little mezzannine board that you plug into the 28 pin socket and allows you to live map the JECS unit. Yes, you read that right, it will allow the user to change the maps on their JECS ECU (and save them, of course!).
At the moment I'm trying to figure out some concurrency issues... it's all rather gory detail logic stuff which would act as a very effective insomnia cure if I were to discuss it here :-) [mail me if you're interested].
Cheers,
Pat.
OK, the real gem is not the little mezzanine board that takes the 27C256 EPROMs, but the little mezzannine board that you plug into the 28 pin socket and allows you to live map the JECS unit. Yes, you read that right, it will allow the user to change the maps on their JECS ECU (and save them, of course!).
At the moment I'm trying to figure out some concurrency issues... it's all rather gory detail logic stuff which would act as a very effective insomnia cure if I were to discuss it here :-) [mail me if you're interested].
Cheers,
Pat.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
crazyspeedfreakz
Wanted
17
05 October 2015 07:19 PM
Mister:E
Subaru Parts
2
24 September 2015 01:37 PM
