White Oil Smoke on exhaust
05 October 1999, 05:14 PM
#31
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AlexM - I do have complete pix. of engine building and transmission building too... even for the diff and LSD.
Is complete Subaru GC8 Manual with picture and is colour too
I even have Fuji Heavy Industry Subaru workshop manual .. for Legacy/WRX/STI and Sport too.
I think .. all the Subaru Tuner and Specialist in UK would have the same thing too. If not wat is their ref. when fixing the Car and Tunning it ??
Try and ask from them ... if not ... let me know again and will see how I can assist U.
Do U agree wit me FIREFOX/MALIQUE ??
Is complete Subaru GC8 Manual with picture and is colour too
I even have Fuji Heavy Industry Subaru workshop manual .. for Legacy/WRX/STI and Sport too.
I think .. all the Subaru Tuner and Specialist in UK would have the same thing too. If not wat is their ref. when fixing the Car and Tunning it ??
Try and ask from them ... if not ... let me know again and will see how I can assist U.
Do U agree wit me FIREFOX/MALIQUE ??
05 October 1999, 06:19 PM
#32
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Hello to all. First white smoke...then whinning noise. Lets see. white smoke can be caused by oil leak or water leak...depends if the owner can tell the difference. It's very hard for us to debate the cause as we've not seen it.
Whinning noise...can be cause of a shaky turbine shaft or faulty roller brgs. Since those guys have taken it apart n remedied, it's a little suspicious like what Firefox said. Are they specialists? Then again, it might not be the turbine or remedied fault. The fault might still be there waiting disaster to happen like twisted or worst, broken blade or shaft which goes where else except ENGINE! It depends on the job perviously as all are linked. Pls spare a thought for the terrified owner as he's worried abt his 10K km car!
Advice is a simple one, go back to agent n let them have a comment. Maybe go for another opinion n confirm.
Good luck.
Whinning noise...can be cause of a shaky turbine shaft or faulty roller brgs. Since those guys have taken it apart n remedied, it's a little suspicious like what Firefox said. Are they specialists? Then again, it might not be the turbine or remedied fault. The fault might still be there waiting disaster to happen like twisted or worst, broken blade or shaft which goes where else except ENGINE! It depends on the job perviously as all are linked. Pls spare a thought for the terrified owner as he's worried abt his 10K km car!
Advice is a simple one, go back to agent n let them have a comment. Maybe go for another opinion n confirm.
Good luck.
06 October 1999, 04:18 AM
#33
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fine print indeed. humpph!AlexM. Do You Need the pics? DYNT has striped them engines n transmissions and has pics.
[This message has been edited by malique (edited 06-10-1999).]
06 October 1999, 09:38 AM
#34
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Dynt/Malique
Yes I would like to see pictures, but I don't want to put DYNT to too much trouble seeing as I'm only satisfying my curiosity.
I'd pop round, but it's a bit far from the UK!. I don't think any of the UK tuners would be likely to oblige, as knowledge=money!.
Regards,
Alex
Yes I would like to see pictures, but I don't want to put DYNT to too much trouble seeing as I'm only satisfying my curiosity.
I'd pop round, but it's a bit far from the UK!. I don't think any of the UK tuners would be likely to oblige, as knowledge=money!.
Regards,
Alex
06 October 1999, 10:45 AM
#35
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Hi y'all
What exactly are you after alex ?
The most time consuming part is fitting and removing the bloody engine.... you can open the engine..fit new crank and pistons quicker than you can removing and fitting the engine
You are after things like changing the pistons ? And knowing you dont have to split the block to do it ? And how you fit the pins..
Or things like to change the crank? and how you split the block in half ? etc.. ?
No offence.. But I aint going to photocopy the manuals.. I'll be at the machine for years!!!!
Pop down to your dealer..... they will show you..
I actually havent got any pics of an engine rebuild... but I have started to use my camera when I work on scoobs now... I'll take some when I strip the engine...
The internal work is quite straight forward.. the heads (does depend on car) dont require much work...you could just tidy up any rough edges.... Pistons and rods/bolts are easy.... but the block has to be split.
My suggestion is , if you are going to the trouble of taking the engine out...do everything at once....including transmission...
Far easier.. plan it all...ensure you have all the parts and tools.... then go for it
J.
What exactly are you after alex ?
The most time consuming part is fitting and removing the bloody engine.... you can open the engine..fit new crank and pistons quicker than you can removing and fitting the engine
You are after things like changing the pistons ? And knowing you dont have to split the block to do it ? And how you fit the pins..
Or things like to change the crank? and how you split the block in half ? etc.. ?
No offence.. But I aint going to photocopy the manuals.. I'll be at the machine for years!!!!
Pop down to your dealer..... they will show you..
I actually havent got any pics of an engine rebuild... but I have started to use my camera when I work on scoobs now... I'll take some when I strip the engine...
The internal work is quite straight forward.. the heads (does depend on car) dont require much work...you could just tidy up any rough edges.... Pistons and rods/bolts are easy.... but the block has to be split.
My suggestion is , if you are going to the trouble of taking the engine out...do everything at once....including transmission...
Far easier.. plan it all...ensure you have all the parts and tools.... then go for it
J.
09 October 1999, 05:25 AM
#36
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CoolHand
I had it checked from a subaru specialist but not a turbo specialist. So I asked other people opinion and they concluded it was just over fill oil that went into the intake. The problem was the 'Specialist' opened the turbo and as the other guys opinion said that they didn't asseble it back correctly . I knew about it right after I orderd a bigger turbo . I feel bad coz I had to spend on a new turbo when it should have been the case .
I had it checked from a subaru specialist but not a turbo specialist. So I asked other people opinion and they concluded it was just over fill oil that went into the intake. The problem was the 'Specialist' opened the turbo and as the other guys opinion said that they didn't asseble it back correctly . I knew about it right after I orderd a bigger turbo . I feel bad coz I had to spend on a new turbo when it should have been the case .
10 October 1999, 04:18 AM
#37
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Roland,
How do U or they know it's a case of overfilled oil? Where's the stain seen? Lets say, oil hardly gets into intakes unless seals are leaking. Overfilling will mostly cause loss of engine power. Bigger turbine? what's the size? Now this is getting into details of getting yr fault rectified. Find out from them again. If the charge pipe has oil stain, it's the turbine's compressor oilseal. On the otherhand, the exhaust oilseal can leak also...causing bluish smoke. White smoke is associated with water.
How do U or they know it's a case of overfilled oil? Where's the stain seen? Lets say, oil hardly gets into intakes unless seals are leaking. Overfilling will mostly cause loss of engine power. Bigger turbine? what's the size? Now this is getting into details of getting yr fault rectified. Find out from them again. If the charge pipe has oil stain, it's the turbine's compressor oilseal. On the otherhand, the exhaust oilseal can leak also...causing bluish smoke. White smoke is associated with water.
10 October 1999, 05:34 PM
#38
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Coolhand
It was just a case of panic I went home one night and thought of checking the oil when I saw that there was little oil on the dip sitck I quickly addedl almost half a liter of oil. then I saw the oil go up the filling tube!!! . I thought it wont make any harm ( this happend 5 days before the white smoke) between these days I added a boost controller then I went on a hard long drive. when i got to my destination still no smoke. when I started in the morning and just wnet on a casual drive ( didnt boost so much) and parked my car I noticed white smoke. I had the intrecooler checked they noticed oil on it and at theintake side of the turbo.
the sop felt it was an oil seal leak so thy opened the turbo and noticed everything was intact. Now the problem is they didnt put it back together correctly and the turbo has this "whining" sound . I wanted it opened again but they told me its realy like that once you opened the turbo.
I asked another persons opinion and now they told me that there was nothing worng with the turbo it was just oil going thru the breather tube into the intake. They also said that the balcnce of the turbine was also messed up by the shop. now its too late coz it has done harm to my impeller. I had to get a new turbo!!!
It was just a case of panic I went home one night and thought of checking the oil when I saw that there was little oil on the dip sitck I quickly addedl almost half a liter of oil. then I saw the oil go up the filling tube!!! . I thought it wont make any harm ( this happend 5 days before the white smoke) between these days I added a boost controller then I went on a hard long drive. when i got to my destination still no smoke. when I started in the morning and just wnet on a casual drive ( didnt boost so much) and parked my car I noticed white smoke. I had the intrecooler checked they noticed oil on it and at theintake side of the turbo.
the sop felt it was an oil seal leak so thy opened the turbo and noticed everything was intact. Now the problem is they didnt put it back together correctly and the turbo has this "whining" sound . I wanted it opened again but they told me its realy like that once you opened the turbo.
I asked another persons opinion and now they told me that there was nothing worng with the turbo it was just oil going thru the breather tube into the intake. They also said that the balcnce of the turbine was also messed up by the shop. now its too late coz it has done harm to my impeller. I had to get a new turbo!!!
11 October 1999, 03:32 PM
#39
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AlexM, Roland,
Sorry about the delay... been "away" for a little while.
AlexM,
The figure of 1.25 bar was just an example taken out of the air. I was merely trying to make the point that what is dangerous to a small turbo may not be dangerous to the rest of the engine. And vice versa wrt a big turbo :-) As far as a UK spec '99 model goes, I'de be cautious. The only way you'll knwo for sure how much abuse it will take is after it's blown up :-( 1.25 bar may well be OK. If you wanted to hold 1.25 bar, first correct the initial overshoot..... then pray :-)
Roland,
Holding 1.05 bar is quite reasonable. Should be perfectly safe for '99 spec car. Whining turbos are a Bad Thing(TM) so hopefully the VF23 will sort that problem.
Believe me you don't want to see the original go pop. It could take half the bulkhead with it. It probably wouldn't shear as such, it would just disintegrate... when the impeller touches the housing things can get very nasty.
Max boost for the VF23... err pass... I'de need to see the specs on it first :-) As for changing the ECU just because the turbo is changed... this shouldn't be necessary because it's a closed loop control system; the ECU will do what it has to in order to maintain its control over the boost. Unless of course you take that control away from the ECU by fitting a boost controller....
You do appear to have such a beastie, so get the car on the rollers to make sure you're not running lean at high boost. And don't whatever you do, try to mess about with the MAP sensor... bad idea. The ECU needs to know what's going on, even if it doesn't like it. If it's shutting down the injectors because it thinks it's seeing overboost, get the ECU remapped and/or the control program altered to raise the cutoff limit.
Cheers,
Pat.
Sorry about the delay... been "away" for a little while.
AlexM,
The figure of 1.25 bar was just an example taken out of the air. I was merely trying to make the point that what is dangerous to a small turbo may not be dangerous to the rest of the engine. And vice versa wrt a big turbo :-) As far as a UK spec '99 model goes, I'de be cautious. The only way you'll knwo for sure how much abuse it will take is after it's blown up :-( 1.25 bar may well be OK. If you wanted to hold 1.25 bar, first correct the initial overshoot..... then pray :-)
Roland,
Holding 1.05 bar is quite reasonable. Should be perfectly safe for '99 spec car. Whining turbos are a Bad Thing(TM) so hopefully the VF23 will sort that problem.
Believe me you don't want to see the original go pop. It could take half the bulkhead with it. It probably wouldn't shear as such, it would just disintegrate... when the impeller touches the housing things can get very nasty.
Max boost for the VF23... err pass... I'de need to see the specs on it first :-) As for changing the ECU just because the turbo is changed... this shouldn't be necessary because it's a closed loop control system; the ECU will do what it has to in order to maintain its control over the boost. Unless of course you take that control away from the ECU by fitting a boost controller....
You do appear to have such a beastie, so get the car on the rollers to make sure you're not running lean at high boost. And don't whatever you do, try to mess about with the MAP sensor... bad idea. The ECU needs to know what's going on, even if it doesn't like it. If it's shutting down the injectors because it thinks it's seeing overboost, get the ECU remapped and/or the control program altered to raise the cutoff limit.
Cheers,
Pat.
11 October 1999, 04:10 PM
#40
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Here's a question for firefox/Dynt/Malique
Thanks for your previous replies. I've been reading 'Maximum Boost' by Corky Bell, which seems to be a good primer on Turbo Systems. Several interesting bits caught my eye. Bear in mind that the main thrust of the book is designing an aftermarket system for a NA engine, and doesn't address the specifics of any particular turbo installation.
The first point he makes that increased boost isn't necessarily dangerous for the engine (as opposed to the turbo) because the combustion pressures act to partly reduce the inertial load on the conrods/bearings. The conclusion is that most NA engines could easily withstand six to eight psi boost.
Does this also mean that a turbo engine should also withstand a reasonable increase in peak torque without firing the crank out of the bottom of the engine?.
The second is that any turbo is rated at a certain CFM flow rating for peak efficiency. As you increase boost beyond this point, the charge temperature rises. As long as this is partly contained by the intercooler, then increased boost should also be well tolerated. Given that a turbo is rated by CFM at peak efficiency, how does this correlate to a 'PSI rating'. Surely the pressure differential is dependent on the flow rate of the engine the turbo is strapped to?. I'm not sure how these relate.
The explanations in the book make sense, but what does this mean in practice for my MY98 UK impreza?. Assume I'm looking for a +4Psi boost. What is going to cause me problems and why?.
Thanks
Alex
P.S. What about hybrid compressor wheel and housing?
[This message has been edited by AlexM (edited 11-10-1999).]
Thanks for your previous replies. I've been reading 'Maximum Boost' by Corky Bell, which seems to be a good primer on Turbo Systems. Several interesting bits caught my eye. Bear in mind that the main thrust of the book is designing an aftermarket system for a NA engine, and doesn't address the specifics of any particular turbo installation.
The first point he makes that increased boost isn't necessarily dangerous for the engine (as opposed to the turbo) because the combustion pressures act to partly reduce the inertial load on the conrods/bearings. The conclusion is that most NA engines could easily withstand six to eight psi boost.
Does this also mean that a turbo engine should also withstand a reasonable increase in peak torque without firing the crank out of the bottom of the engine?.
The second is that any turbo is rated at a certain CFM flow rating for peak efficiency. As you increase boost beyond this point, the charge temperature rises. As long as this is partly contained by the intercooler, then increased boost should also be well tolerated. Given that a turbo is rated by CFM at peak efficiency, how does this correlate to a 'PSI rating'. Surely the pressure differential is dependent on the flow rate of the engine the turbo is strapped to?. I'm not sure how these relate.
The explanations in the book make sense, but what does this mean in practice for my MY98 UK impreza?. Assume I'm looking for a +4Psi boost. What is going to cause me problems and why?.
Thanks
Alex
P.S. What about hybrid compressor wheel and housing?
[This message has been edited by AlexM (edited 11-10-1999).]
11 October 1999, 07:31 PM
#41
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AlexM - Increasing boost reasonable would not harm Ur bottom end.. but wat is reasonable?? Let say from 0.8bar to 1.5bar .. no problem the bottom end will handle that .. speaking from the mechanical side of the engine only.
CFM flow rating is different from PSI/BAR of boost.
CFM is used to measure the volumetric efficiency of the working turbocharger at given RPM..... heat is taken into account.
PSI/BAR is related to pressure of air being forced into the engine...because pressure is involve..the strenght of an engine bottom end is measure by PSI.
As u know that engine is a form of AIR PUMP so U need to know the air capacity to determine its volumetric efficiency.
Hybrid Inducer trim ... U have to look into the trim efficiency/pattern and wat material being used......ie. Titanuim Inducer Trim from EVO 6... U have to match it wit the turbine wheel
Compressor Housing ... A/R ratio is very important. U have to match it with the exhaust housing.
Anyway .. U can do almost anything to the turbocharger.... and Ur engine too.
Heat and vibration is a major problem and leads to mechanical failure... even on standard engine.
I'm confuse now .. so many things in my mind. Look wat U have done AlexM....*sigh*
This Corky Bell ... he is smart eh!! Hehehe .. corky guy too... American.
Where was I ????
Cheers.
CFM flow rating is different from PSI/BAR of boost.
CFM is used to measure the volumetric efficiency of the working turbocharger at given RPM..... heat is taken into account.
PSI/BAR is related to pressure of air being forced into the engine...because pressure is involve..the strenght of an engine bottom end is measure by PSI.
As u know that engine is a form of AIR PUMP so U need to know the air capacity to determine its volumetric efficiency.
Hybrid Inducer trim ... U have to look into the trim efficiency/pattern and wat material being used......ie. Titanuim Inducer Trim from EVO 6... U have to match it wit the turbine wheel
Compressor Housing ... A/R ratio is very important. U have to match it with the exhaust housing.
Anyway .. U can do almost anything to the turbocharger.... and Ur engine too.
Heat and vibration is a major problem and leads to mechanical failure... even on standard engine.
I'm confuse now .. so many things in my mind. Look wat U have done AlexM....*sigh*
This Corky Bell ... he is smart eh!! Hehehe .. corky guy too... American.
Where was I ????
Cheers.
11 October 1999, 08:03 PM
#42
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Hi there..
Take ya pills DYNT..
Any news on the oil temp sensor ? mail me... *hint*
Just going on from what DYNT said...Corky is partially correct within reason (I believe his theories are based on low pressure turboing of NA cars... not directly to do with modifying already turbo charged cars).... In this case boost is important... as I said in a another post...its all to do with ECR (effective compression ratio = piston compression * turbo pressure).
The principle on upping the torque and whether the engine will survive varies between engine and engine...engines have a builtin margin of extra strength... fitting a low pressure turbo system doesnt introduce "that much" extra torque and bhp.... but uping the boost on an already turbo charged engine can greatly increase the engine loading...
Its hard to give an example of CFM and pressure....ok...lets say 1cubicfoot is being flowed every one sec.... no resistance...everything is fine....turbo spins freely... then you introduce a resistance (in the form of pressure from the air thats already filled the manifold/pistons). The turbo is still trying to flow the one 1 cubicfoot/sec... but the gases cant flow...so pressure builds up...trying to compress the air.... when you start to compress gas heat builds up..the turbo is having to work harder (resistance) and inturn builds heat... everything equates to heat.... which is bad... To minimise heat you use an intercooler....and also a turbo that doesnt have to work so hard to produce ... I THINK I NEED PILLS NOW - did that make sense ? I do know honest...
CFM is different to PSI... consider them like Volts and amps...
Turbos have their optimum operating band... if you drive them too much... you will reach their peak and surpass it..and you wont get anymore power for your engine..just heat.. and lots of it.. I've seen glowing red turbos and manifolds...not good!!
Trim..AR...wheel/shaft material/design...housing are all important.... If you are going to change the turbo... Think what you want from it ? response or top end ? Then you have two options (depending on your existing turbo). Have it modified (hybrid)...or buy a new model...that best meets your requirements... then have that modified.. lol
Turbos range from about 700 quid to 1600 quid...for virtually the same spec....shop around...
J.
Take ya pills DYNT..
Any news on the oil temp sensor ? mail me... *hint*
Just going on from what DYNT said...Corky is partially correct within reason (I believe his theories are based on low pressure turboing of NA cars... not directly to do with modifying already turbo charged cars).... In this case boost is important... as I said in a another post...its all to do with ECR (effective compression ratio = piston compression * turbo pressure).
The principle on upping the torque and whether the engine will survive varies between engine and engine...engines have a builtin margin of extra strength... fitting a low pressure turbo system doesnt introduce "that much" extra torque and bhp.... but uping the boost on an already turbo charged engine can greatly increase the engine loading...
Its hard to give an example of CFM and pressure....ok...lets say 1cubicfoot is being flowed every one sec.... no resistance...everything is fine....turbo spins freely... then you introduce a resistance (in the form of pressure from the air thats already filled the manifold/pistons). The turbo is still trying to flow the one 1 cubicfoot/sec... but the gases cant flow...so pressure builds up...trying to compress the air.... when you start to compress gas heat builds up..the turbo is having to work harder (resistance) and inturn builds heat... everything equates to heat.... which is bad... To minimise heat you use an intercooler....and also a turbo that doesnt have to work so hard to produce ... I THINK I NEED PILLS NOW - did that make sense ? I do know honest...
CFM is different to PSI... consider them like Volts and amps...
Turbos have their optimum operating band... if you drive them too much... you will reach their peak and surpass it..and you wont get anymore power for your engine..just heat.. and lots of it.. I've seen glowing red turbos and manifolds...not good!!
Trim..AR...wheel/shaft material/design...housing are all important.... If you are going to change the turbo... Think what you want from it ? response or top end ? Then you have two options (depending on your existing turbo). Have it modified (hybrid)...or buy a new model...that best meets your requirements... then have that modified.. lol
Turbos range from about 700 quid to 1600 quid...for virtually the same spec....shop around...
J.
12 October 1999, 03:28 AM
#43
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Darn! DYNT n firefox said EXACTLY what I intended to say
AlexM. Only by knowing the limitations of the parts holding your car together will you know whats reasonable or not. And that , my friend, is where the experienced tuners come in.
Having said that I think 4psi boost increase is the norm and very reasonable.
Too simplistic?
thanks .
M.
AlexM. Only by knowing the limitations of the parts holding your car together will you know whats reasonable or not. And that , my friend, is where the experienced tuners come in.
Having said that I think 4psi boost increase is the norm and very reasonable.
Too simplistic?
thanks .
M.
12 October 1999, 04:58 AM
#44
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Roland, If the breather tube has oil flowing back to the intake, then some crankcase vent valve may bot be working. It isn't suppose to work that way. If they opened the tubine properly, it shouldn't have the whinning sound. It's bad job! Anyway, VF-23's a good tubine for the scooby...just don't overboost. By the way, don't push the car st this momnet if I were U...something might just snap n there goes the engine.
17 October 1999, 05:32 PM
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coolhand
Actally I hve a 97' Impreza. You thinkt can take the VF23 t 1.1 bar . FYI I have a boost controler but I won go over 1.2bar there is a cut off at 1.2bar (ECU)
You think the VF23 is safe enough?
Actally I hve a 97' Impreza. You thinkt can take the VF23 t 1.1 bar . FYI I have a boost controler but I won go over 1.2bar there is a cut off at 1.2bar (ECU)
You think the VF23 is safe enough?
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