PhilBennett

And isn't it exactly what all this is about?

Badge engineering? At the end of the day a P1 is pretty much a STI with softer springs.

Nevermind all this alarm, warranty nonsense all of that doesn't require any engineering.

It isn't a case of selective listening it is a case of the IM group needing to prop up their greedy little empire. Why couldn't they simply import STI's at a favourable rate?

The P1 is no long distance cruiser and that is what they are trying to create - If you want a car to take you from London to Scotland then there are better and more appropriate motors.

johnfelstead

Hi Cem,

the current power to weight ratio is 371BHP/ton

when i have upgraded to 330BHP (which i will do fairly soon) it will be up to 445BHP/ton.

After todays antics, my first long drive in the dry, i need to put better brakes on the front before the 330BHP upgrade, it is quite stagering just how fast it gets to 100MPH, it is possible to power slide it at 80MPH there is that much torque. i think a set of willwood 4 pots are needed with some 310mm disks, that should do the trick. It currently has capri 2.8 injection front 2 pots, they just aint up to the job.

Acker

Stupot, I'm not planning any mods.


I have to get some ICE sometime, but I think you are scraping the barrel if you want to refer to that as a mod.

Acker

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by PhilBennett:
<B>
Regards the P1 - it has been created as a marketing excersise and isn't because it is superior in an engineering sence.
[/quote]

All cars are a marketing exercise of some form or another.

<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
The 17 inch wheels are an irrelevance as you can go to any OZ supplier for the same.
[/quote]

I think Prodrive will have the distribution locked for a small while, at least.

<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
They claim the P1 is the car you can drive from London to Glasgow and get out feeling relaxed. Hence it has softer front springs.


However is this how we truely see the role of a STI or Evo 6?? I think not for me (and I'm sure others) it is a 100 mile A and B road point to point car - with the occasional trackday thrown in. The last thing we need is softer springs.
[/quote]

I have driven a P1, and A and B roads are no problem. You <B>know</B> there is more to it than just softer springs.
<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
Then people start scraping the bottom of the barrel to justify the price with stuff like, Alarm, warranty, bodykit, blah, blah.
[/quote]
And I thought they were just responding to your query about the price difference with an STi.

<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
Autocar and now Top Gear don't really rate this car - but you can see from the treads that people want to make excuses for it.
Autocar said the P1 generally understeers - and you could see from the pictures that it struggles to keeps it's nose up and rolls far worse than the Evo 6.
[/quote]
If you read through the Autocar article they appear to like it a lot and then pick on the lack of a quicker rack and weak brakes. The quicker rack is IMHO not needed, the one provided is the same as the STi. Did they pick on the brakes 'cos they were comparing it with the the EVO VI or 'cos the tester grounded the front spoiler (nearside)?
TopGear (TV) liked it but the EVO won a test around a rallysprint circuit. How many of us are going to drive on a rallysprint circuit?
TopGear (mag) finished up by reckoning it was down to which rally car you supported/prefered apart from Tiff who prefered driving the EVO around an airfield/circuit, complaining that the P1 understeered. I haven't got my own airfield.
<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
Autocar's headline was damning enough!
[/quote]
Headlines are designed to sell magazines!!

<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
If I was going to spend £30 on a motor I'd buy 2 cars. A Caterham 1.6 superlight for the track and then something economical and comfortable for the road.
[/quote]
That's your choice, but why so critical of other peoples choice?



[This message has been edited by Acker (edited 24-04-2000).]

PhilBennett

So what are your reasons for buying?

PhilBennett

It isn't critism it's just a bit of banter to kill some time and I'm interested in others views.

I was curious on the P1 because I thought it would be a step up in terms of engineering for say an STi V6 - but take away the cosmetics and it is an STi!


You make an a great deal of assumptions in your last post - like the Prodrive tie up of the OZ wheels and the total disregard for the Autocar article.

You tell me that I KNOW that the P1 differences are more than just springs - but the point is I don't! You tell me what is so different? I think you'll find that it actually is spring.

How do you see the P1? GT car, Family saloon, what?

Acker

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by PhilBennett:
<B>So what are your reasons for buying?[/quote]

I've got a Terzo now and fancy something with a bit more go. Also the Terzo is the very first 4 door car I have owned. I have made <B>good</B> use of the extra doors on very few occasions. My mother still tries to get in the back by lifting the front seat.

I had been contemplating an STi for a while but then heard of the possibility of an <B>official</B> STi. There was no big rush, after all the Terzo is now only 2 years old.
This time last year I was looking at 27,500 for an imported STI through an import company who would take my Terzo as a trade-in. I am not interested in the cheaper import routes, I want to pull up in my Terzo and drive away in my next car. I know it costs a bit more in the long run but hassle
selling cars costs time and money.
I spoke to the dealer again a couple of months ago and he just cannot get good prices on Subarus so he has had very few through.
Having stated my prefered upgrade route, I will use Warrenders for price comparison. Warrenders want 28,995 for the STI Limited. (Forgot to say I want Sonic Blue). Subaru want 31,495. Not a big difference when you add up the costs of the spec differences and the wider UK support. Obviously I would have been happier if they had met their 30,000 target price.

Acker

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by PhilBennett:
<B>It isn't critism it's just a bit of banter to kill some time and I'm interested in others views.

I was curious on the P1 because I thought it would be a step up in terms of engineering for say an STi V6 - but take away the cosmetics and it is an STi!
[/quote]
I wouldn't class it as a step up, more minor tweaks and tailoring for the UK.

<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
You make an a great deal of assumptions in your last post - like the Prodrive tie up of the OZ wheels and the total disregard for the Autocar article.
[/quote]
Find me the wheels available elsewhere currently and I am then obviously wrong.
I didn't have a total disregard for the Autocar article mearly the two points they complained about. Try reading through the Autocar article again yourself and they like it right up until the end.
<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
You tell me that I KNOW that the P1 differences are more than just springs - but the point is I don't! You tell me what is so different? I think you'll find that it actually is spring.
[/quote]
What I meant was that you know, in your driving role, that their is more to a good handling car than just spring rates.

<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
How do you see the P1? GT car, Family saloon, what?

[/quote]
I don't agree with your comment <B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
The P1 is no long distance cruiser and that is what they are trying to create[/quote]
I think you have stretched a marketing comment too far there.

I see it as an uprated UK turbo, so that would go into whatever category you put the UK Turbo.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Going a bit off topic here - the prices I quoted are to source a brand spanking new, latest Possum board and have it mapped by the most experienced and expert hands (not just my view, the majority view) in the UK...and this is not a pitch, I paid full price.

The tuning cost also covers aftertuning advice via email, telephone and in person.

I paid a little bit more - but that included buying a Tuning Module and Knock Link and Sensor - not essential by any means - good to haves.

In terms of consquential costs - then only time and the market will tell.

I am only reinforcing this statement - not as a value judgement on P1 v STi v UK v Tractor v Minibus - but to ensure that potential Possum purchasers have the correct information.

R

Neil F

The problem with this argument is that the P1 is a new model with limited edition status.
Wait till the car is 1-2 years old and then the STi will come into it's own again.
One of 2 things will happen:
The P1, as with Terzos, Catalunyas and RB5s, will hold their value better than a standard UK Turbo.
This means, comparing a 2 year old P1 to a 2year old STi, that the depreciated STi has some "budget room" to make any alterations (which incidentally the previous owner is likely to have made already!) to suspension, ECU or whatever you consider necessary.
Failing that, the STi's will actually increase in value again as a great alternative to the P1!
Even now, if you don't necessarily hanker for a brand new car, you can get P1 performance+ at anywhere between £4000-8000 cheaper.

For me, my 1998 STi 4 is the perfect solution; phase 1 engine to allay any burnt piston fears you may have, later interior, £200 on Eibach springs to sort the suspension (I'd like to test it against the P1 as the ride/performance compromise is superb) and it still looks brand new.

This is just my humble opinion, which as usual is spot on. ;o)

By the way, I think that John's statement (page 1) that the Impreza is bred from a road car is incorrect. I have read in a number of sources that it was designed specifically to replace Colin McRae's old car which was considered to be at the end of it's rallying life. Hence such details as near perfect 50/50 front/rear left/right balance, high under clearance, equal length driveshafts etc.

Neil.

[This message has been edited by Neil F (edited 25-04-2000).]

JayDee

I thought the point about the P1 was that it produces its 280 bhp on 95 RON fuel without detting, unlike the Sti's, which are designed for 100 RON. So you you spend a coupla grand on a possum for the Sti and the remap, and the price differential is not so great.

JD

Trout

iTrader: (1)

JD,

just a factual correction - a Possum and remap will cost around £700-900 depending on source.

An alternative is do nothing - as Jonathan rightly says you will negate your warranty if you make post purchase mods, however the majority of standard Sti Vs and VIs don't suffer det - it's the breathing mods and track days that make them lean out.

If they do then put 1-3% Octane Booster in - then they run fine (and keep their warranties).

It's simple, you pays your money and you makes your choice - and we all choose different things

JayDee

Rannoch

Accept in principle what you say about price although you surely need to spend on decent map for possum - a map you can have confidence in, unless you DIY and really know your stuff

I guess the point is that it all adds up so that the REAL price differential, (including octane booster, residuals, and everything) is not that great

Ultimately, value is only measured by what you are prepared to pay......

Jd

johnfelstead

neil, your missing the point.

All rally cars are a development of a road car, thats the rules.

The impreza rally car has to use the same basic shell and bulkheads as the road car, from then on its pretty much a free for all under the WRC rules.

The point i was making is that the rally car is developed from a road car. The road car does not take its basis from a rally car as the marketing would like you to believe.

PhilBennett

Of course there is more than just springs that have a bearing on a cars handling BUT what I was saying is that between the P1 and STI the only difference is springs and what Autocar describe as "uprated" dampers.

Although what is an "uprated" damper??? Is it just re-valved or has it more adjustment for bump & or rebound OR what??? You tell me.

As for these OZ's - well if you want them badly enough then Prodrive would supply the actual rally versions in Magesium (just like Richard'S) if you get your cheque book out. However they look like Super T's to me just a different colour.

Finally the Autocar test. Without simply re-writing their road test I think you will find they say:-

1 - Is the P1 the ultimate road car; or even the ultimate Impreza? The answer is not quite.

Now if that isn't clear enough they also say:-

2 - (Prodrive/Subaru)...designed to..be the best Impreza ever on the road. Second to wrest the cross country crown from the fearsome Mitsubishi Evo VI - In our view it succeeds on NEITHER front.

AND IF THAT ISN'T CLEAR ENOUGH THEN....

3 - Not the Impreza masterclass we expected.

THEN FOR THOSE WITH THERE HEADS IN THE SAND we have...

4 - ON PAGE 47 - RB5 is better value.

Jonathan

Phil

Each time you refer to Autocar as if they are the Gods of the Motoring press.

Please also mention EVO mag, Top Gear and Car to give a balanced view. But I know that wouldnt suit.Sudcliff who wrote the review is a known EVO fan.

As Evo says "the ultimate Impreza and afordable driver car". They didnt even need to test the EVO as the RB5 trashed it and the STI V last year.

Car made it the "Ultimate Impreza" and so did Top Gear

3 out of 4 isnt bad.

Jonathan

First Past the Post for the P1 me thinks

[This message has been edited by Jonathan (edited 25-04-2000).]

Blow Dog

Holy crap John,

Just going thru my Evo magazine, cars with higher BHP/Ton are as follows:

Car/BHP = BHP/Ton

Ferrari F40/478 = 441
Ferrari F50/513 = 424
Lister Storm/594 = 420
McLaren F1/627 = 560 (!)
Caterham 7 Superlight R/187 = 470
Westfield SEiGHT/270 = 411

Incidentaly:
STI v4/280 = 203
22B/280 = 221
UK Turbo/215 = 177

That is a ferocious car you have there, I wanna ride. Emm, ok guys you can continue with the debate, it just seems like you needed a diversion.

Ill get my coat.
Ce,

PhilBennett

Autocar V Evo.

All I can say is this - Steve Sutcliffe is a proper driver and can win in TVR races.

Evo magazine, well lets put it this way Richard Meaden raced with us at Thruxton in 1999 and he wasn't on the pace at all - as an example he was almost 2 seconds PER LAP off us.

So either I'm Schumacher and as I know I'm not he is ****.

Evo magazine is like a posh Max Power.

So

Jonathan

Phil

So the test of a motoring mag is how many races you win ? and if your within 2 secs of your lap time ?. Are racing drivers real world drivers or just driving cars with the wrong frame of mind ?

Damn I knew I'd missed something. I think they Autocar rate the 75 as well. Still what do I know. Better cancel that order tomorrow.

Jonathan

Mr Sutcliffe is God

Stupot

Go on, get another STI, you know you want to and go on holiday, buy a suit a furniture have a visit to the pictures and have enough money on the way home for a nice bag of chips
Stu

johnfelstead

dont know where the westfield seight gets its figures from. It is supposed to be almost identical weight wise to mine and mine has 5BHP more.

Either i have the wrong figure for the vehicle weight (just going off the press release i have seen) or the westfiled seight weight calc is wrong.

I need to weigh it i suppose.

PhilBennett

You can't beat a bit of banter!!

John - I'd hate to be the one who first puts a scratch on your P1!!

In reality the P1 is going to be a fantastic piece of kit. Just I don't really think it will be any better than a STI.

Of course you can be a great journalist and totally naff on track - but I do think that if you are a decent race driver then you are qualified to say how a car handles - don't you?

Acker - you are right I am too biased. It's just I feel that they could have made so much more of the P1 - instead of a softer STI with stickers, wheels and bodykit.

As for revised font/rear geometry - I'd love to be able to sell cars for a big premium simply 'cos I'd altered the camber and tracking!

Like you say - each to his own - and upon reflection - I guess the price gap isn't so large as it seems.

Hope that P1 goes well John.

Acker

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by PhilBennett:
<B>
Of course there is more than just springs that have a bearing on a cars handling BUT what I was saying is that between the P1 and STI the only difference is springs and what Autocar describe as "uprated" dampers.
[/quote]
In your original post you just mentioned softer springs, glad to see you've re-read the article, but you still failed to mention the revised front and rear geometry.
<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
Although what is an "uprated" damper??? Is it just re-valved or has it more adjustment for bump & or rebound OR what??? You tell me.
[/quote]
Best ask Prodrive, it's not my field.
<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
As for these OZ's - well if you want them badly enough then Prodrive would supply the actual rally versions in Magesium (just like Richard'S) if you get your cheque book out. [/quote]
But the OZ's were brought into the debate over the cost difference with an STi. Everything has its price but then you are moving rather rapidly away from your why is a P1 4K more than an STi VI question. Keep it up and your STi will soon be 4K more than a P1.
<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
However they look like Super T's to me just a different colour.
[/quote]
The P1 OZ has fewer and different shaped spokes. Picky maybe, but they are different.

<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
Finally the Autocar test. Without simply re-writing their road test I think you will find they say:-

1 - Is the P1 the ultimate road car; or even the ultimate Impreza? The answer is not quite.

Now if that isn't clear enough they also say:-

2 - (Prodrive/Subaru)...designed to..be the best Impreza ever on the road. Second to wrest the cross country crown from the fearsome Mitsubishi Evo VI - In our view it succeeds on NEITHER front.

AND IF THAT ISN'T CLEAR ENOUGH THEN....

3 - Not the Impreza masterclass we expected.

THEN FOR THOSE WITH THERE HEADS IN THE SAND we have...

4 - ON PAGE 47 - RB5 is better value.
[/quote]
Let me show you a different slant just by picking out different parts of their report:

1 - A machine created out of the WRX, but shorn of many rough edges to maximise its potential as everyday transport.

2 - The P1 has a rare ability to smooth surfaces a driver's eye has marked down as being troublesome.

3 - It's difficult to think of road car chairs that offer the same combination of lateral support and long-distance comfort.

4 - The P1 is definitely faster than the Turbo and RB5.

5 - In isolation the P1 is a shatteringly impressive car, one whose body control and suspension composure set new hot saloon standards.


Now people may have a totally different view if they read these summary points. All I'm trying to get at is that if the article is read overall then I get a different viewpoint to their front page headline and their inside summary. How many car test articles have you read wher the verdict goes against the article that you have just been reading. I doubt very much that you can say none.

You do appear to have a fixation with the Autocar article and have ignored references to other reports. Do you have a sideline as a car test reporter?

Why not go away and read the other mag reports, i.e. Car, EVO and TopGear to get some more input and see what you think.
Better still go and get a test drive of a P1 then see what you think. Yes there is a lot of press hype about the P1 but it is a very good car. Maybe Autocar are attempting to redress the hype or maybe a scooby fan tested the P1 prototype and an EVO fan tested the real P1, who knows? It could even have been a marketing ploy to steal sales away from rival publications.

As for value for money, well that is always a personal decision.

Blow Dog

John,

Might have been figures for the euro version.

Cem

johnfelstead

the euro version is only 200BHP, you have figures from the original seight with 270BHP there, i belive it was a very lightweight one. Press cars ey

Then again my car was the press cosworth car so mine might be a bit lighter too

I need to check this for curiosity reasons, wont make it any quicker will it

It was timed by one mag at 0-60 in 4 seconds when it was running 220BHP, with 275BHP i have now it should be in the 3.5's i would think as traction is fantastic in the dry.