polarbearit

I don't know the big picture, but have an understanding of recent events...

In my opinion Rover had a future producing rebadged honda's...

The BMW deal wasn't feasible in the long run as they didn't indulgence in much platform sharing hence a mini which still costs a fortune to produce and 75 which is a 5 series reenginered with FWD what a waste of effort!

Mmmmm

Interesting stuff from Mycroft.

Some of Labours policies,other govermental interference and high taxation policies really helped kill it off.

If the British car industry had been left to cope with natural market forces, something worth while and healthy might be left today.



[Edited by Mmmmm - 5/18/2003 4:26:36 PM]

jaf01uk

Austin Allegro, Morris Marina, Triumph Acclaim, Austin Maxi, Avenger, Viva, Need I continue? Oh and more stoppages than an average London bus!!

Oh Meant to say, BMW only ever bought Rover Group to get their hands on Land Rovers 4x4 expertise, once they got this for their X5 they were happy to get rid!

[Edited by jaf01uk - 5/18/2003 5:52:47 PM]

MGJohn

Lancia Chris,

Yeah, agreed, we still have those ... Good eh. Why did you omit MG-Rover from you list .. after all, we still have them too. Their survival is important. It will be an indicator of the nation's well being - or not ... Mark my words.

MGJohn

jaf01uk WROTE:

>> Austin Allegro, Morris Marina, Triumph Acclaim, Austin Maxi, Avenger, Viva, Need I continue? <<

Please don't continue. That is exactly the type of lack of vision so many of my misguided countryman are guilty of. Where do these misconceptions originate? Lets examine what were the superior alien alternatives available to us at the time. I shopped around and bought new cars then...... 1970s/1980s Datsuns, Hondas and all the rest. Sure they were highly finished articles on very poor base materials available at the time. Nothing new there then. Hondas, Datsuns, Lancias you name it; most disappeared in very short time before your very eyes as mother natutre tried to reclaim her own. I remember seeing chrome bumpers on Hondas (I'm still a Honda fan) whereby ALL the base materials had disappeared as rust leaving ONLY a very thin skin of pure chrome plating of the bumper. Remarkable. Datsuns disappeared in a pile of rust as you watched ... and all those cars were certainly NOT market leaders. The humble Marina, Cortina were often superior to the alternatives then available.

[Edited by MGJohn - 5/19/2003 5:59:56 PM]

Mycroft

Indeed, remember that Datsun used the ubiquitous BMC B series for the base for many engines... even the Silvia S12 Turbo ran a derivitive of that very motor... so again myth is quoted as truth... our designs were not faulted... when BMW were making the dreadful 700s' and the Bubble car we were designing Minis' and Jaguars... try to open your eyes people... some of you are just seeing the result NOT the cause...

Edited 'B' series 1622cc/1798cc...

[Edited by Mycroft - 5/18/2003 6:07:28 PM]

Mycroft

Even the BMW flagship the 507 was limited in selling just 250 at outrageous prices... at this time you could buy an XK120 for a quarter the price that was both faster and more reliable... you could even very shortly have the XK with Disc brakes... another UK first... we were always the best at this just starved of backing... Merchant Bankers had their part in the downfall too.

logiclee

MGJohn.

This is a bit off topic so apologies but its along the same lines I believe...

A lot of what you said is spot on mate. The decline of the car and mining industries in the UK was soley down to the Government wanting to defeat the Unions so the nationalised industry was run down allowing foreign companies a massive lead. The only people who lost out was the miners, car workers and the UK population.

UK Coal is the cheapest deepmined coal in Europe but it can't compete against Germany and the eastern european countries because their industries receive massive subsidies. Germany pays more in subsidies per ton to its mines than the UK produces its coal at. How can you compete with that?
European law says this is illegal in 99% of industries but not mining. It was due to be stopped but the German Government has said that it would cause 500000 job losses so it still goes on and the UK industry dies. The EU denies the UK industry any support as new applications for subsidy are not allowed. The Government says we have to comply


WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW is that in 10 to 15 years when the UK coal industry is dead, natural gas and oil reserves have run out the UK will be 80% dependant for all its energy/electricity needs from abroad and mainly from Eastern European countries.

Just think by 2020 the UK can be held to ransom for our power needs. The Government on the other hand does sod all than says build more windfarms which together with nuclear and renewables can give around 20% of what we need.

Lee

cucumber

The bickering that went on between the various parties that made up British Leyland in the 70's set the tone, it was diabolical, management all trying to further their own particular favourites MG/Triumph etc. with no concept of where they were mean't to be going....... they couldn't see the big picture (mainly competion from Japanese cars)......bad/outdated designs that were frankly laughable and treating the buying public as fools thinking they would remain loyal regardless of what crap they turned out.......and the saddest thing of all is that we still don't see it.

Luke

MG John

very good points....made me think on a bit.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Another point about the decline in the uk car industry (along with government, management etc.) Is the shear lack of investment and development. With all the cars BL (Austin, BMC or whatever) produced and sold, the profits were'nt re-invested. Just wasted by poor managemnts and efficiency. Lack of marketing too, why did they never really make any great attempts on the forighn markets?

British Leyland pioneered (or one of the first to use ) some designs that are common place in modern cars. Such as 5 speed gearboxes, Traverse engines/gearboxes, front-wheel drive, Hatchbacks! Even EFi (Jaguar were owned by BL back then, and yes I know it was Lucas/Bosch - but it was on a Jag). Why were these never deveolped and improved?

They just carried on making it while everyone else caught up and overtook. By the time they realised that something needed doing, it was too late. Much like the Bike industry and Noton/Triumph's Triple engines - too little, too late.

brickboy

Cynical under-engineering and lack of development ... many manufacturers were guilty of the same but the likes of Ford and GM had global resources to fall back on.

chrispy200+

iTrader: (2)

You could go on to say that the entire UK manufacturing industry is taking a real nose dive. British Aerospace or BAESystems as they are know now are in my opinion on a decline, looking at merging with American companies, appearing to move away from manufacturing and just into systems (hence the name change) and failing to deliver on time most products.

Heres hoping that the industry recovers soon, British designers/engineers are still regarded highly though the industry though. Look at a lot of the chief motorsport engineers

chrispy200+

iTrader: (2)

Also it would appear that MG-Rover are trying to make the most of the 75 as it already has transmission tunnels etc for RWD, remember reading an article on it all.
BMW did rip them to pieces but the rise in the japanese car market has had a knock on effect. A lot of people can now be quoted as saying "i won't buy anything now unless it is japanese"
I think also there is no encouragement to follow an engineering education in this country, Computing seems to be the biggest industry / best paid and thats where evryone goes.

MattW

Very interesting.

My Grandad (god rest him) would not buy anything Japanese(I'm sure you can guess why). He ran Saab's or Jag's (and Rovers before I can remember). He would buy German, but not at the expensive of a comparable non-German or Japanese product.

GTI

MGJohn I did not know about anything apart from how much they sold Rover for - so however much they made from LR etc is new 2 me, thats why I posted the post so I could find out

MGJohn

GTI,

>> MGJohn I did not know about anything apart from how much they sold Rover for - so however much they made from LR etc is new 2 me<<

You and millions of others!! PRECISELY!!!! .... but why is that? It's the main trouble with our negative news brainwashing by British Media..... NEGATIVITY ... they're obsessed with it. British media ... anti-British more like!! YOU only know about "Loss making Midlands based car manufacturer MG-Rover is sold for 10 quid" because that's got soooo much more negative impact which those parasitic media ponces thrive on and offer for consumption .... they really do. How often were you, me and the rest of us told the FULL story? Sure the info was there but they didn't exactly shout THAT from the rooftops did they? One had to really search to find the full story.

Want more recent proof? Did you witness any of the recent media news reports a few weeks back about the possibility of "Industrial Action at the loss making Longbridge plant by MG-Rover workers"? TV/Radio, Red Tops and even some of the broadsheets gave initial reports indicating that industrial action was not only on the cards, it was a near certainty. Some contributors on this and other car enthusiasts sites read those reports as a foregone conclusion. One individual was almost orgasmic at the prospect of industrial action even on ScoobyNet. He has his reasons. He also has a severe paucity of faith in the British workforce ... of which he considers himself a more responsible member. That geezer is so brainwashed he must be an albino .... but he's not...

So, our wunnerful highly regarded anti-british media, having geed-up the nation to expect strike action by those oh so lazy and irresponsible workers at Longbridge, suddenly had to change their tune when that much maligned workforce voted to accept the offer and NOT take industrial action. Just as I and many others possessing unwashed braincells had anticipated all along. What a delight for this and many other observers to witness the level of disappointment in the voices and words of those same media ponces when reporting that vote to accept and no strike action. How they would have loved a lovely negative ... "Everyone out Bruvvers" item ... Serves 'em right ... Good eh?

So keep 'em peeled ... the real evidence is out there. But they keep it all hid .... who said that? ... I remember now ..... Robert Zimmerman .... many a true word ...

This brain washing is nothing new. Back in 1982 when buying a new MG Metro 1300 as a family runabout .... (yes it fell to bits ... fifteen years and many thrashed miles later ... both my sons learnt to handle a car in it as small boys .... but the engine lived on in another car ... )but I digress .... back on track ..... a well to do vociferous women in the showroom at the time was voicing an opinion about british workers so that all could hear. Never forgot this. In a loud cultured voice she said she'd never buy a Rover product because those lazy workers at Longbridge and Cowley all deserve to lose their jobs. On and on she went until politely asked to leave. Her appearance suggested she had never had to do a reasonable day's work in all her life. ... now that's BRAINWASHING!! Sadly, there's still plenty more about like her ...

So lets have a little more respect for the British Worker .... irrespective of what you may be lead to believe about them. Media often speak with forked tongue ... they really do ..

Safety Fast MotorinG - whatever you drive ....

Mycroft

Again MGJ, I have to agree with you... we disemboweled our industry and now we bicker over who wielded the knife and spilt the entrails, blaming everyone but ourselves... it is very likely that the people from that womens social peers were the real lazy basterds that screwed the industry the dozy tart slagged off...

First against the wall come the Revolution brother...

MGJohn

Ali-B WROTE

>>They just carried on making it while everyone else caught up and overtook. By the time they realised that something needed doing, it was too late. Much like the Bike industry and Noton/Triumph's Triple engines - too little, too late <<

Too late maybe but, those BEEZA and Triumph Triples were something else though ... great stuff.

Red letter Bike day for me in Gloucester recently. Saw a Norton 88 in pristine condition and sounding great. That's the silver tank one with that fabulous black Norton Frame. Looked a picture. One of the best looking bikes ever. Perfect elegence of line and balance unlike many bikes of today. There are exceptions ... here's one ...

Little later as I pulled up in Poll position of three lanes waiting for the green light a motor cycle pulled up alongside my aged (but still quite nippy ...) MG Montego Turbo. Sod it, no chance ... know what I mean? ..

Through the corner of my eye I saw the beautiful lines of the bike and noted the colours .... Scarlet and silver ... the racing colours of ... no, can't be .. but it was.... an MV Agusta! In Gloucester of all places. I attracted the riders attention and we got chatting. Bike was for sale apparently ... only 8 grand ... about a third new price.... DOH! Then the lights changed and I just had time to shout "give it some revs" as he snapped shut his visor. He duly obliged.

What a joy it was to hear once again the engine of an MV being used for real ..... last time was back in the 1960/70s with Hailwood's and Agostini's fabulous MV Agusta works Grand Prix racers. Dream on John Boy ...

Still, helps to pass the time....

Why did our Bike industry disappear? ... Not just the crafty Nipponese, the Italians and Spanish still have a motorcycle industry .... and we Brits don't .... why build bikes when you can take ( not make) big profits or asset strip by shuffling paper and property in the city ... much less hassle ..... Building Bikes or cars ....too much like hard work.

What's long term investment mean Dad? No idea son ... I'm a Brit ....

Merc_Cosworth

I think you're all missing the very root of the problem... What made British Industry great to start with.

British Industry was never particularly competitive, efficient, or streamlined. The only thing that kep it going was the Empire.

The Empire, and its inhabitants was a massive captive market for British Industry - financed by the collective wealth of the millions of people under the control of the Empire, British Industry flourished.

No need to be long sighted in investment when the market is so vast, and the British government had control over all of it.

Long-term investment and strategy is a direct consequence of a free market economy

The industry was so vast, and so all-consuming that its death came long after the colonies had gained independance, and Britains status as a world superpower had diminished to one of mere 'semi important friend of the USA'

The car industry was just an example of what happened to industry as a whole when the colonies disappeared - the constant bickering, in-fighting and short-sightedness came to fore as the captive market diminished and it was forced to fight on a global scale against something it had never had before - Competition.

A similar thing has happened in the former USSR. Countries that had no option other than to buy outdated expensive second rate Russian kit suddenly don't have to. Russian industry, having had no competition for 50 years, and being weighed down with inflexible management ideals (perfect in a single market economy) simply cannot change.

The real thing that killed British Industry was its failure to adapt to a free market economy. The Government was correct in stopping the cash subsidies - it would have bankrupted an already bankrupt country.

The end result? We have one of the strongest and most flexible economies on the planet. It is more resilient to inflation and recession than almost any other.

I'd rather live in a country where things aren't run by the unions, or like the rest of Europe - saddled with excessive industrial subsidies shoring up the manufacturing industry and as a result, the economy.

The German and Eastern European economies are dependant on the health of manufacturing - they're where we were 20-30 years ago.

The government took the right decision to let British Industry fight for itself - the massive casualty list is a reflection of how crap British Industry was to start with.

logiclee

But how is British industry to compete in the world market when the foriegn goods are cheaper due to the subsidies they receive?

I'm all for market forces and a free market but the truth is it doesn't exist. How can the UK coal, steel, ship yards etc compete when the French and Germans are offering massive insentives. It is also a lot cheaper to make a UK worker rendundant meaning we are always first choice for closure.
If we are to have a single currency lets balance everything else up at the same time.

Don't be fooled into thinking the Britsh economy will be as strong when we are totally dependant on foriegn goods and energy.

Just think 20 years on if it all goes pear shaped in Eastern Europe. When we are reliant totally on imported coal, steel and a gas pipeline from the old USSR. We would have lost the world wars within 3 months.

Top Gear had a very good story about the new Rolls on Sunday. It was pictured along side the Humber Bridge. We have always had the best Engineers and the capability to build world leading equipment, the brain drain just continues now.
Get the politicians involved and you end up with the millenium dome though.

Lee

Stevie

Cant do the quotes thing, but re the comment that Land Rover were purchased for technical expertise to do the X5.

Er no. Fortunately for BMW, they developed the X5 themselves, taking no input from Land Rover. LR may have pointed out it needed 2 diffs but that would have been about it!

The latest generation RR was developed using BMW money and knowledge, and it tells. Prior to this, ALL Solihull products were so closely related to the original 1948 vehicle it hurts.

IMHO, BMW wanted the Land Rover name, nothing else. I guess they sold it reluctantly to cover the money sunk into MGRover.

Sennadog 93

Err, hang on. Who says the UK car industry has been killed? Last I heard, BMW (Mini - Rolls Royce), Ford (Land Rover - Aston Martin - Jaguar), Vauxhall, Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Peugeot, MG Rover and VW (Bentley) were all manufactured in this country.

But they're not British owned companies (with the exception of MG Rover) I hear you say. Well maybe, but AC, Ariel, Bristol, Caterham, Lotus, Marcos, Morgan, Noble, Radical, TVR and Westfield are.

I'm not even going into a long list of ancillary manufacturers such as Mayflower etc but they are all very much part of the UK car manufacturing industry.

What people forget is that car companies are rapidly becoming very blurred (call it globalisation) as to their country of origin. Just look at BMW or Mercedes Benz - both of them manufacture in the US, South Africa and South America including other countries. VWs could come from any one of a dozen plants in Europe and even that venerable American icon such as the Jeep is made in Austria!

Every country has it's weakness in the national psyche, for example Australians suffer from Tall Poppy Syndrome but in the UK Negativity seems to reign supreme. OK, we don't have giants in the Car manufacturing sector but we do in Telecoms (Vodafone), Oil (BP and Shell to name but two), Defence sees the like of BAe etc etc and don't even start on the success of the City within the financial markets.

It does **** me off sometimes how negative people can get.

wilf

Sennadog is right. According to a recent article in Autocar the UK produces more cars per year than it has ever done at any time in its history.

jaf01uk

Cant do the quotes thing, but re the comment that Land Rover were purchased for technical expertise to do the X5.

Er no. Fortunately for BMW, they developed the X5 themselves, taking no input from Land Rover. LR may have pointed out it needed 2 diffs but that would have been about it!

OK, so when did BMW produce their first 4x4? I must have missed something somewhere, seems strange they did'nt do it till after the aquisition of Land Rover,

GTI

Feckin hell! I didn't kno they made so much money out of them - but I spose if I thought bout it.
Theiving B@tstards! Just adds to why I would never buy a Beamer, nor a Rover for that matter.

GTI

Sennadog said "Err, hang on. Who says the UK car industry has been killed? Last I heard, BMW (Mini - Rolls Royce), Ford (Land Rover - Aston Martin - Jaguar), Vauxhall, Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Peugeot, MG Rover and VW (Bentley) were all manufactured in this country.

But they're not British owned companies (with the exception of MG Rover) I hear you say. Well maybe, but AC, Ariel, Bristol, Caterham, Lotus, Marcos, Morgan, Noble, Radical, TVR and Westfield are."

Yes but the topic of the post was the "british" car industry meaning English companys.
Anyways, Morgan and Marcus have gone into liquidation last I heard!
So has it died apart from the few specialized sports car manufactuers??? Also AC isn't mean't to be in the healthiest of states, plus look how many have died in the past 40 years!
Triumph, Morris etc....

[Edited by GTI - 5/20/2003 5:39:30 PM]

Sennadog 93

GTI - I'm confused. Nowhere in your original post did you mention British OWNED car companies....

"Is the british car industry past saving?
RoverMG are a bottomless money pit. BMW tried and failed selling out for just a tenner.
Who did kill the british car industry? RoverMG inparticular. Things have been going wrong for a long time, since the mid-eightes from what I can see.
But what did go wrong, does anyone know? Lets see."

The title of your thread clearly states: "Who killed the British Car Industry?" I'm pointing out that no-one has killed it.

Are you now talking about British or English car companies as in your last post?

Editted to reflect the fact that Morgan certainly isn't in liqidation, Marcos are still manufacturing and the comment about AC proves my point about British negativity.

[Edited by Sennadog 93 - 5/20/2003 6:29:20 PM]

Stevie

JAF01UK

Except 2 diffs there is absolutely nothing in common between the X5 and ANY pre BMW Land Rover product.

By definition, if in developiong the X5 they chose not to use a seperate chassis, not to use live axles, not to use underpowered engines, not to use crap trim etc, then they chose not to use Land Rover's alleged expertise!

The X5 being launched after the purchase was a coincidence. BMW had already recognised they needed to be in the SUV market sector, and had done something about it.

Kevin Mc

Talking of Aston, this from another list from an employee at Ford:

"Announced at work today was the latest blow to what is left of the British
motor industry.
The supply of Engines for Aston Martin cars is being switched from the
current UK supplier to the Ford Werke AG engine plant in Cologne. No
adequate reason was given beyond "Exexcutive decision"
For the past two years we have had Exec's from Dearborn and Cologne
bleating to us about the need to cut costs and raise quality in order for
the Ford European Turnaround Strategy to work. Now we get a premium
brand's engine supply switched from the low cost high quality supplier to
the plant in Europe with the highest operation costs (thus highest piece
price) and mediocre at best quality.

Any one care to hazard a guess how long it will be before the Americans and
Krauts close down all operations in the UK???"