johnfelstead

So the answer to a direct question cant be given by the person most qualified to give the answer? That is classed as comercial advertising.

What you are saying is pick up the phone and dont ask questions on scoobynet if you want a direct answer. How is that good for the BBS and it's vendors who pay for a banner add? It's making it less of a resource and making you less likely to use the BBS.

OK, thanks for the responses Simon, i'll leave it at that.

carl

Hmm. There are so many holes in this.

For example, I don't believe Dream Weaver (Kreature web designs) has a banner ad. But we often see things like 'Look at the new Scoobysport site that I've designed and see what you think'. So now everyone knows that Kreature does web designing (and pretty good web designing at that) and he gets loads of commissions out of that.

It's an incredibly fine line -- if I was an employee of a company and posted a question about how to design a widget (in Non-Scooby, of course then later posted some pics of my efforts (look at the nice widget I've made) all well and good. This is the community spirit helping someone with their work.

But if you take someone like me (IT contractor) -- I both design and make widgets for a living, but also sell widgets and consultancy services designing widgets. Now the same request for help and pictures of the widget are advertising my wares. I may have needed the same help from the community, and be just as proud of the widget I've made, but now there's a possibility that someone on Scoobynet will buy a widget off me.

The other thing I'd like to see is clear labelling of vendors, even those who have banner ads/Scoobyshop gold vendor status. You and I know that Pete Croney is from Scoobysport, and Mike Tuckwood is from Scooby Mania but a newbie doesn't. Perhaps make more use of the 'From:' field (Pete Croney, From: Scoobysport) -- indeed make it a requirement that vendors use it -- and maybe a different colour to indicate their status?

[Edited by carl - 3/25/2003 8:16:17 PM]

Phil Harrison

Want to get a few thoughts in quickly, Webby, and take a bit more time on others.....

Swearing: I for one don't have any great problem with asterisks or pseudo-letters (e.g. PI$$), and there have been very few posts in the 3 years or so I've been on here that have caused me grief. Too many "*****" in quick succession is more intrusive than, say, "barstewards", however. There are no absolutes in this matter and we have to accept Moderators' judgements IMHO.

BUT:

Recent controversy has been generated by personal or gratuitous abuse, and this is a different thing altogether. Thus, guidelines governing this are more urgently needed than those governing swearing.

I also have no difficulties with the near commercial posts which have from time to time surrounded - for example only - "WAXWIZARD", or someone called "Trouser at TSL" (whoever he may be!!!) I have more difficulty with, say, a Dealer responding on-board to someone who's had bad service in another part of the Country saying "mail me and I'll do you a deal": that should take place off-board IMHO

I think its dangerous to try to be too definitive - and to be fair, most of your guidelines are ones of principle - but I ask myself far more often "why hasn't this been moderated/moved" (usually the latter) suspecting that, actually, it's 'cos there's no mod on duty at the time!!

All of which is a complex way of saying...
a) I support what you're trying to do, and - by and large - your draft
b) We shouldn't get too tied up in trying to define things too closely (the "12A" was a good example)
c) we should realise that moderating is the art of applying judgement, and we should support the moderators. Fortunately - a recent case excluded - overt challenges to moderators seem relatively rare.
d) Here's yet another Scoobynetter who isn't too worried about swearing at its current levels and practices.
e)..... and the guidleines need the spelling-checker being run!!!! last time I accused the Webmaster of being "bare" (whether in mind or body) I was deleted without explanation

Phil

chrisp

I cant believe you are arguing over bad language

Rights heres my piece.

This moving of posts is become very very silly.

Just spent 20 minutes looking at the number of threads today 25-03-2003 which have been posted on in each forum. It makes interesting reading .

Bugs 0
Scoobyaid 0
Scoobyshop 0
Projects 1
Sports 3
Motorsport 3
Insurance 5
Suspension 6
Dealer 3rd Party 6
Interior 6
Lights/electrical 8
Security 11
DIY 12
ICE 12
Bikers 13
Styling 13
Other Marques 19
Was it U 25
Drivetrain 25
Wheels./Tyres 27
Gen Tech 28
Gallery 34
Computer 37
CWE 40
Wanted 44
muppets 56
General 57
Non scooby related 57
For sale 121

I havent included the meet forums as stuff very rarely get moved from them.

Looking at the above stats suggest to me you have "HOT" forums and other which are in suspension or stopped. Moving threads means you are virtually killing that thread which maybe a valid question. I know I have had threads moved and went and asked the question on another BBS to get an answer. You desperately need to merge some of these forums together to gain posters and readers. There are just too many and irrelevant forums IMHO.

Also there is still a newbie forum missing where its free from stupid off putting comments to new members about using the search facility. Also it may stop the general forum getting clogged up with questions like "how do post a picutre", "how do I do smilies" etc. Unless scoobynet is going to provide an FAQ to explain how to do some of these tasks ?.

The newbie forum has been asked for many times but no we get a DIY forum or a biker forum or a projects forum.

I want to see scoobynet grow but I think it needs a rethink of the forums, what its trying to acheive and how best to use the forums.

[Edited by chrisp - 3/25/2003 8:46:56 PM]

salsa-king

reading all that lot my head hurts!!

I agree that we have too many forums now.. and when a thread gets moved it won't get looked at.

where do i look/Use scooby net.

1. General
2. Gallary
3. Midlands
4. some times Non Scooby Related.

If ppl want advice.. ppl post in the forum they are most likely to get a reply... where...?? General.
Not... Tyres.. DriveTrain.. etc.
cus they see how many posts get made in there in a day.. not may ppl reading it.




so i can't put a neoquip.com Signature under my name then??


Phil
neoquip.com

Brendan Hughes

Good point, though not for this thread! Someone should analyse the post counts in each forum over, say, a month, and if it doesn't come up to an average, merge it to a logical sibling to create that.

Of course, I'd LOVE to do that, but I'm a bit busy at the mo... (runs for cover)

carl

DIY was formed because Non-Scooby was being 'overwhelmed' by DIY posts

p1bobsta

Having been (and still) a member of several car forums and mailing lists, I really don't see the need for such harsh and restrictive limitations on suspected commercial posts.

I've witnessed incidences in the past where two (or more) suppliers ended up in a slanging match (and price war!) over parts and this was quickly stopped with all parties warned... But IMHO John is right - a gearbox specialist should be able to give gearbox advice and even state that he could help out. As long as he doesn't quote his full phone number, website/email/postal address and rates/prices it strikes me as a helpful post not an advert.

There are many small traders working in the car industry who don't make much money at all. They get into it 'cos they love their cars and are good at what they do. Let's not cut off these valuable sources of information.... Simon appears to agree on this point so let's hope it works out this way.

I also appreciate the costs of running an on-line site such as ScoobyNet - I work for a managed web hosting company and design this sort of infrastructure on a daily basis - it ain't cheap. However, IMHO I don't see any reason to differentiate between companys who take out banner ads than those who don't. Save for the guys who buy ads being allowed to say "just click on our banner and get in touch"... ie be a bit more direct with their contact info than regular posters.

I think we should all be credited with enough intelligence to be able to spot the difference between genuine advice and recommendations from other users, and blatant advertisers. However, I appreciate that Simon and the mods have a tough (and time consuming) job to do... but if they relaxed the rules slightly in this area I'm sure it would make their jobs easier. Questions would get answered quicker and it'd stop people registering fake IDs then posting random cr*p to get their post count up.

At the end of the day, we can talk about it all week in this post... but I'm happy to let Simon and the mods get on with the task and hope they'll strike the right balance.


[Edited by p1bobsta - 3/25/2003 11:31:38 PM]

TurboKitty

I agree the 12A rating is confusing, because I don't really know what that means in real terms. I don't think **** of any sort should be allowed on Scoobynet though. A large section of the internet is devoted to **** of one sort or another and it's not needed on Scoobynet, in my opinion.

Midmotorsteve

all good i think, i think the swearing thing is ok as is, you swear letters get blanked people still know exactly what your saying

On the where to post what where, i'm guilty of posting in general knowing it'll be moved because if i post in the relevant section i know no ones looking. or i post in relevant section, then in general or non-related with something totally random with a link to get people looking at the main question...silly really isn't it but generals a good read so people get stuck their, they don't necessarily not want to help someone with a technical issue, they just havn't been to technical in a while

thats all

ianfergus0n

hhhmmm!

Oh bo11ox, I'll get me feckin coat.

Could you do an easy english version please!

johnfelstead

chrisp, your numbers are flawed. You are listing topics posted to, not how many posts in those topics for the day. Forums like drivetrain dont have masses of topics, but they do get lots of detailed replies in each topic, it's more active than you think.

ex-webby

Hi All

There's some great stuff in here, that you for all your time. It shows how much everyone cares about it

I'll just quickly say..

If anyone else thinks that what I have said in any way suggests John's quote of :

Let me know. But I'm sure this would not be the case so will not go in to answering it again for one person.

carl

Agreed, it's a very fine line (the advertising thing) and I think we've got it about right the majority of the time so far? The guidelines are just that, "guidelines" rather than hard and fast rules, otherwise they would have to be 10 times the length and complexity and we'd still miss circumstances, etc.

phil

LOL All good points, and all taken in to account. Thank you for your time.

chrisp

Some really insightful and thoughtful stuff, but it's way off topic for this discussion, could we talk about this in another thread, another day?

salsa-king

I would respectfully ask that you don't please. It will onlt serve to irritate current advertisers and show others that paying for advertising is not necessary.

p1bobsta

I disagree. It is absolutely fine for him to help out and make suggestions (as previously discussed). But saying "I can help you out" (which equals "I can sell you my services") is an advert.

We have to think of the long term success of scoobynet. If people can advertise free of charge, they won't bother to pay. In addition, I would suspect that the other car forums you mention have a fraction of the traffic of scoobynet, and there really are a whole load of extra woes and concerns when you start to get to this size (and continue to expand constantly).

TK

The pornography thing has been sorted now. We are taking out the 12A bit.

----

OK.. It looks like we're pretty close to agreement here.

- We're agreed on the swearing thing as, due to your comments, we have modified the guidelines to reflect the *current* situation, rather than any new "regime".

- Based on your comments the 12A rating has been dropped.

The only thing that *seems* (to my untrained eye!! ) to be in slight contention is the commercial stuff..

But I think we're about there on that also?

Keep it all coming, but try to steer clear of the swearing thing now as I think we have the right balance.

All the best

Simon

chrisp

John it took me long enough to go into each forum and count the number of threads nevermind the number of posts in each one . It was just trying to show that if you had 10 threads in one forum and 15 in another for a day then all the threads would be on the same front page. Anyone looking could see the last 24 hours at least without having to flick through second and third pages .

If forums arent being used people dont visit them and them moderators move the threads to them and the thread is finished.

They are simply too many IMHO and have been for a long time. As Simon says probably not for this topic but it needs sorting.

ianfergus0n

Si,

I was reading the thread very late last night so could someone please tell me if this is legit or not......

A person posts saying..... Oh god, please can some one help one of me neons have broke and I need it replacing asap, the place I got them from was in london, but I now live in East Midlands.

Would I Be able to say ...... Try Salsa-King he may be able to sort you (then either phils number or email).

Would that be seen as advertising.

Ian

ex-webby

Hi Ian

In that specific case, I wouldn't see a problem with it.

The person is clearly incredibly stressed and needs assistance urgently. If salsa-king was to post it, it would obviously be a different matter, but if a member simply suggested the name of a company (without saying "they're great and really helpful, etc" maybe) that was in their area, I can't see a problem with it.

It's all grey areas, and not going to be absolutely easy. As with all things, there are mitigating circumstances in each case. If you turned out to be best mates with salsa-king, we might think it was a little suss. It's all just common sense, and not rubbing it in people's faces, etc.

But. Please let's not try to be too specific about all of this. It's purely common sense, and how it's been done for a while now anyway, so nothing is about to change.

All the best

Simon

ianfergus0n

Just as I thought..... Cheers Si.

I think the major point of contention is that you are trying to put in to words somthing that has been happenig for a while, without thinking about it people are presuming you are changing things.

I will stick to the rules in the alternative thread.

1. The Mod's are always right.
2. If the Mods are wrong see rule 1

Ian

ex-webby

LOL

Agreed. Nothing is changing, we're just trying to be as open to all as possible so it's clear what our motives are.

So.. are we all agreed then? Sorry to put on you all again, but could you just give me a show of hands if you're ok with it all. Obviously still rip in to me if you're not ok with it all!

Cheers

Simon

carl

I disagree (again).
Aside from the fact that I can't see why someone would be 'incredibly stressed' about some neons , if somebody asks "where do I get some stickers" I think I should be entitled to say "speak to salsa-king -- I've had several sets off him and they're great, delivered quickly, etc."

This is just a recommendation, and recommendations are what keeps this community going. I've met Phil (salsa-king) once, but I have no hidden agenda. Just got good service and happy to recommend it.

[Edited by carl - 3/26/2003 12:45:46 PM]

ex-webby

*aargh*!!

Agreed carl. Please can we leave this as "it's just going to be common sense".

If someone is taking the mickey, we are going to look closer at it. Otherwise it really shouldn't be a problem. Remember again, nothing has changed here, this is just a worded version of the incredibly difficult borderline calls we have to make on a daily basis.

All the best

Simon

carl

TBH I'd be incredibly stressed if I owned some neons

ex-webby

LOL

--

OK, if there are no objections, we'll run with this then. I'll give it a bit longer in case anything else comes up.

Thanks for all your input.

All the best

Simon

johnfelstead

No we are all not agreed. Dont say there are no objections when there are some. I.E Mine. It's lonely being a rebel sometimes. LOL

Chrisp, i know what you are saying mate. You sure you dont want to analyze it per post or even per view?

Best of luck, i hope you got this right Simon, for everyones sake.

bluto22b

S****horpe

Oh so it does