IMPORTANT - New Forum Guidelines - Please read and comment
25 March 2003, 03:30 PM
#61
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As a guide anything rated 12A or above may be removed without notice
I'd also like to point out that the mods do not give up their time 'for free' as they got a free Scoobynet Plus membership out of it. There has been consideration (something of worth has changed hands), therefore they're getting paid for it (admittedly far below the level of the national minimum wage...
)[Edited by carl - 3/25/2003 3:32:27 PM]
25 March 2003, 03:34 PM
#63
LOL
OK carl.. I'm sorry, the mods get a free plus membership out of it.
a) they don't do it FOR that. This was just something I was able to give them back
b) the hourly rate would be well below a tenth of a penny by now.
The **** thing I think is a little more dodgy than the swearing (although I'll be swayed either way if it's what people want).
But I personally think that a "car bbs" will NOT become a worse place if **** can't be posted on it. There is plenty of **** around the web, I think that's a better place for it.
Remember that kids DO and WILL come on here as well.
What does everyone else think?
Cheers
Simon
OK carl.. I'm sorry, the mods get a free plus membership out of it.
a) they don't do it FOR that. This was just something I was able to give them back
b) the hourly rate would be well below a tenth of a penny by now.
The **** thing I think is a little more dodgy than the swearing (although I'll be swayed either way if it's what people want).
But I personally think that a "car bbs" will NOT become a worse place if **** can't be posted on it. There is plenty of **** around the web, I think that's a better place for it.
Remember that kids DO and WILL come on here as well.
What does everyone else think?
Cheers
Simon
25 March 2003, 03:36 PM
#64
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Sorry, I went back and edited my post. I didn't mean the **** thing, it was the 12A thing that p****d me off. That implied to me that we're a bunch of sub-12 year olds, and catering for that sector of the population seems inappropriate on a car BBS.
If you'd said "as a guide, anything that would be rated 18+" I wouldn't have an issue.
If you'd said "as a guide, anything that would be rated 18+" I wouldn't have an issue.
25 March 2003, 03:42 PM
#66
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Yes, it would be better without the 12A think. IIRC in the dim and distant past there were Usenet newsgroups called k12.* which catered for sub-12 year-olds (I think this might have been in a simpler, pre-paedophile time though 
)
Seems to me that Scoobynet shouldn't be part of that. You could change it to 18+, but then that opens the floodgates for links to 'Page 3' style stuff which, IIRC, is more like 15+.
)Seems to me that Scoobynet shouldn't be part of that. You could change it to 18+, but then that opens the floodgates for links to 'Page 3' style stuff which, IIRC, is more like 15+.
25 March 2003, 03:42 PM
#67
What the hell does a 12A rating actually mean anyway?
As for ****, I do not believe it has any place on a bbs of this nature. Go to the Max Power website instead!!
Is the above sentence considered to be a link to an undesirable website?? Oh my God, this moderating lark is too bloody complicated!!
Wuss.
[Edited by Wuss - 3/25/2003 3:47:32 PM]
[Edited by Wuss - 3/25/2003 3:52:15 PM]
As for ****, I do not believe it has any place on a bbs of this nature. Go to the Max Power website instead!!
Is the above sentence considered to be a link to an undesirable website?? Oh my God, this moderating lark is too bloody complicated!!
Wuss.
[Edited by Wuss - 3/25/2003 3:47:32 PM]
[Edited by Wuss - 3/25/2003 3:52:15 PM]
25 March 2003, 03:55 PM
#70
Excellent way of putting it carl.
Agreed. We'll ditch the 12A bit. Won't really change the meaning, but it will be less insulting to the adault population of scoobynet.
Cheers
Simon
Agreed. We'll ditch the 12A bit. Won't really change the meaning, but it will be less insulting to the adault population of scoobynet.
Cheers
Simon
25 March 2003, 05:38 PM
#71
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Strikes me the rules will just cause arguement. Smacks rather too much of Mary Whitehouse. The odd rude word, used in context, shouldn't be a problem amongst adults talking about an emotive issue like fast cars.
You will need to end up with a list of banned words, and the context when they will be banned. ****, clam, nipple, ****, sperm, doggy and Jehova (ducks rock) spring to mind.
Don't try and replace common sense with complex rules. You need 2 rules.
1.The mod is always right.
2.When the mod is wrong, rule 1 applies.
Colin.
You will need to end up with a list of banned words, and the context when they will be banned. ****, clam, nipple, ****, sperm, doggy and Jehova (ducks rock) spring to mind.
Don't try and replace common sense with complex rules. You need 2 rules.
1.The mod is always right.
2.When the mod is wrong, rule 1 applies.
Colin.
25 March 2003, 05:50 PM
#72
Hi Eldar
LOL, while your two rules would make life a lot easier for the mods, it isn't really what scoobynet is about..
Read back a few replies, we've decided to change the bit on swearing.
Cheers
Simon
LOL, while your two rules would make life a lot easier for the mods, it isn't really what scoobynet is about..
Read back a few replies, we've decided to change the bit on swearing.
Cheers
Simon
25 March 2003, 06:08 PM
#73
OK, so just to clarify what you are saying Simon.
This is an example OK.
We have a username of "GearboxExpress"
The guy has a profile that says "i fix gearboxes"
he has a signature in his posts that says "bloke from GearboxExpress"
He answers a question in drivetrain that is asking "I just killed my gearbox!!!! What is involved in fixing a broken gearbox? what should i do?" with the relevent answer such as "you need to replace the thingymybob with a new thingymybob, however i suggest you use a gearbox specialist to do this, as it really complicated and not an easy task for a muppet, you need specialist tools"
You would not have any problem with that, despite it being a vendor suggesting they use profesional services that they themselves could provide.
Is this correct?
This is an example OK.
We have a username of "GearboxExpress"
The guy has a profile that says "i fix gearboxes"
he has a signature in his posts that says "bloke from GearboxExpress"
He answers a question in drivetrain that is asking "I just killed my gearbox!!!! What is involved in fixing a broken gearbox? what should i do?" with the relevent answer such as "you need to replace the thingymybob with a new thingymybob, however i suggest you use a gearbox specialist to do this, as it really complicated and not an easy task for a muppet, you need specialist tools"
You would not have any problem with that, despite it being a vendor suggesting they use profesional services that they themselves could provide.
Is this correct?
25 March 2003, 06:29 PM
#74
Hi John
I was trying to keep all this to common sense rather than specifying every single possible loophole and angle. but...
In that specific case we would take a very dim view. That would be an example of someone abusing the system IMHO, and is the kind of thing that COULD end up spoiling it for everyone.
All the best
Simon
I was trying to keep all this to common sense rather than specifying every single possible loophole and angle. but...
In that specific case we would take a very dim view. That would be an example of someone abusing the system IMHO, and is the kind of thing that COULD end up spoiling it for everyone.
All the best
Simon
25 March 2003, 06:33 PM
#75
PS
You could also say that....
Like all things..
Let's say ONE person started doing that. And nobody ever saw it as a problem and nobody complained. That in itself would never cause anyone any concern (including us).
The problem is..
If another person sees this and then does the same, and then another and then another,etc, etc.
Then it becomes a problem which needs to be stamped out altogether causing something hugely negative.
So the only way to deal with these things is to just use common sense and remove anything blatant, and maybe have words with things that are starting to get a little less subtle.
Cheers
Simon
You could also say that....
Like all things..
Let's say ONE person started doing that. And nobody ever saw it as a problem and nobody complained. That in itself would never cause anyone any concern (including us).
The problem is..
If another person sees this and then does the same, and then another and then another,etc, etc.
Then it becomes a problem which needs to be stamped out altogether causing something hugely negative.
So the only way to deal with these things is to just use common sense and remove anything blatant, and maybe have words with things that are starting to get a little less subtle.
Cheers
Simon
25 March 2003, 06:44 PM
#76
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The new rules seem fine to me - with the option of swearing reinstated (where its appropriate). The trader/business issue is a nasty one though as there will be times when someone's just genuinely being helpful - one enthusiast to another - but then there will be other people who exploit the opportunity purely for their own gain. I'm not sure about complete censorship but i've no problem with it being up to Simon's discretion as the webmaster.
25 March 2003, 06:45 PM
#77
OK, then I am totally confused by what is or is not allowed to be posted by a vendor.
You said
The advice in my example is spot on; it is advisable to use a specialist to rebuild a box. (although, like I say this is just an example) Which part of my example is problematic? If its the user name or signature or profile info, how will a user having a good reputation get translated into gaining future business if no one knows they are a vendor? We could end up with a cliquey in set that knows that person is also a vendor, they benefit, and the community doesn’t. So what is it you don’t like? How would you post if you were that vendor?
You also said
That I understand and have no arguments with anymore.
You said
I agree that small vendors can give benefit back, and there are no rules in place to stop them being able to offer advice on technical / practical issues. As an indirect result of this they may end up getting a good reputation on scoobynet and gain future business. This is fine.
You also said
The problem is only if they post "you can buy that product from me". That is not advice, that is a sales pitch.
25 March 2003, 06:55 PM
#78
John
To avoid confusion, just define in your mind the difference between simply giving advice, and then giving advice whilst commercially advertising.
How I would post if I were that vendor would be to take out all the stuff from my profile that said I was a trader, except maybe leave my home page in my profile. That way it's not taking the p*ss (is p*ss allowed now BTW 
) and then say.. exactly what you said. Now...
If I were that vendor. After I'd posted that I would mentally clock up a bit of a warning to myself not to post anything like that for a while. Fine to give advice, but if I can help it at all, I would steer clear of saying "take it to a specialist".
If it's COMPLETELY un-avoidable (which I don't think it ever would be) I would still post again, making sure I don't mention that I am indeed a vendor that can provide this service. But I would also be aware that I was starting to potentially abuse scoobynet and could start to be seen as commercially advertising by the rest of the community - which may be damaging to my business, and reduce the impact of any future advice I was giving.
This is just the process that would go through my mind.
Cheers
Simon
To avoid confusion, just define in your mind the difference between simply giving advice, and then giving advice whilst commercially advertising.
How would you post if you were that vendor?
) and then say.. exactly what you said. Now...If I were that vendor. After I'd posted that I would mentally clock up a bit of a warning to myself not to post anything like that for a while. Fine to give advice, but if I can help it at all, I would steer clear of saying "take it to a specialist".
If it's COMPLETELY un-avoidable (which I don't think it ever would be) I would still post again, making sure I don't mention that I am indeed a vendor that can provide this service. But I would also be aware that I was starting to potentially abuse scoobynet and could start to be seen as commercially advertising by the rest of the community - which may be damaging to my business, and reduce the impact of any future advice I was giving.
This is just the process that would go through my mind.
Cheers
Simon
25 March 2003, 06:58 PM
#79
Scooby Regular
This is crazy - so, as a vendor, who sells octane booster, I need to keep a running count of how many threads enquiring about octane booster I reply to, in case I use up my "allocation" ????!!
Surely this is going to increase "ghost" ID's, not reduce it ?
Surely this is going to increase "ghost" ID's, not reduce it ?
25 March 2003, 07:00 PM
#80
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Simon,
I've reread the thread, and see what you mean about the swearing
So I'll just say futbucker, just to be controversial, like
If you make the rules complex, you will get people saying 'It isn't fair, you didn't do X when someone else did what I did'
The bottom line is the mods run the show, to their rules - written or otherwise. Everyone (should) know that, and if they don't like it they either accept it or start their own version of scoobynet and see who wants to play.
I fear you are making your job more difficult, by restricting your freedom of movement. I mod a legal conference which, at times, makes scoobynet seem a terribly well mannered, placid place...
Colin.
I've reread the thread, and see what you mean about the swearing
So I'll just say futbucker, just to be controversial, like
If you make the rules complex, you will get people saying 'It isn't fair, you didn't do X when someone else did what I did'
The bottom line is the mods run the show, to their rules - written or otherwise. Everyone (should) know that, and if they don't like it they either accept it or start their own version of scoobynet and see who wants to play.
I fear you are making your job more difficult, by restricting your freedom of movement. I mod a legal conference which, at times, makes scoobynet seem a terribly well mannered, placid place...
Colin.
25 March 2003, 07:03 PM
#81
Simon
Glad you changed you're mind about the swearing thing and I'd say the balance we have at the moment is about right (ie swearing with asterisks). I don't think i've seen any uncensored swearwords from people on here and I do think the odd expletive is neccessary for expression in certain situations
Didn't want it to sound petty but check this thread out little b*st*rds
Actually second thoughts.... jameswrx 'swearing moderator'
I respect the work you and the mods do and I for one don't allways agree with the advertising some people do (mainly new users with a business).
For example if you put a post up saying 'someone keyed my car' it's nice to get sympathy and similar experiences from scoobynetters including suggestions of where to get damage sorted by reccommendation.
But what I wouldn't want is a business replying saying I'll sort it, heres my mobile number, heres my email, ring me tommorrow etc etc, does that make sense?. What I'm saying is I'd agree with you deleting a post such as this from a business.
Cheers
James
Glad you changed you're mind about the swearing thing and I'd say the balance we have at the moment is about right (ie swearing with asterisks). I don't think i've seen any uncensored swearwords from people on here and I do think the odd expletive is neccessary for expression in certain situations
Didn't want it to sound petty but check this thread out little b*st*rds
Actually second thoughts.... jameswrx 'swearing moderator'
I respect the work you and the mods do and I for one don't allways agree with the advertising some people do (mainly new users with a business).
For example if you put a post up saying 'someone keyed my car' it's nice to get sympathy and similar experiences from scoobynetters including suggestions of where to get damage sorted by reccommendation.
But what I wouldn't want is a business replying saying I'll sort it, heres my mobile number, heres my email, ring me tommorrow etc etc, does that make sense?. What I'm saying is I'd agree with you deleting a post such as this from a business.
Cheers
James
25 March 2003, 07:03 PM
#82
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Have to say I'm confused by the hole vendor issue.
I simply cannot see what is wrong with vendors replying with factual posts to technical or product enquiries as long as no blatant advertising is involved.
I have been grateful on several occasions for responses from commercial entities on techincal questions. I would like to think I'm able to spot sales pitch from advice (and have never recieved the former on S'Net)
In comp related especially there are many helpful people offering advice. Some I know have "benefitted" form contacts made on scoobynet - but dont have banner ads. The community however continues to benefit from their ongoing willingness to provide many hours of free consultancy - which is without exception provided free from advertising. As I understand it, the second any individual or company makes a personal profit from a single scoobynet induced contact they should cease posting on the subject concerned ?
Seems overkill to deal with a few cases of blatant abuse to be honest.
Deano
p.s. The rest looks great
I simply cannot see what is wrong with vendors replying with factual posts to technical or product enquiries as long as no blatant advertising is involved.
I have been grateful on several occasions for responses from commercial entities on techincal questions. I would like to think I'm able to spot sales pitch from advice (and have never recieved the former on S'Net)
In comp related especially there are many helpful people offering advice. Some I know have "benefitted" form contacts made on scoobynet - but dont have banner ads. The community however continues to benefit from their ongoing willingness to provide many hours of free consultancy - which is without exception provided free from advertising. As I understand it, the second any individual or company makes a personal profit from a single scoobynet induced contact they should cease posting on the subject concerned ?
Seems overkill to deal with a few cases of blatant abuse to be honest.
Deano
p.s. The rest looks great
25 March 2003, 07:05 PM
#83
Boxer
No mate.
This is exactly what I didn't want. Common sense will as always prevail.
If you continually post commercially, your posts will be moderated, that's a fact.
If you merely answer technical questions, that's fine.
The only thing that would be a problem is if you say "mate, you need some octane booster for you car, and you should buy it from a specialist octane booster supplier (or something specific to your business)".
The only thing that was a potential problem in john's example is that the guy was plastering his wares right across his profile and then suggesting that people buy products and services from a company exactly like his.
It's all just common sense. I don't remember a problem from you, so I'm sure you're doing just fine.
Cheers
Simon
No mate.
This is exactly what I didn't want. Common sense will as always prevail.
If you continually post commercially, your posts will be moderated, that's a fact.
If you merely answer technical questions, that's fine.
The only thing that would be a problem is if you say "mate, you need some octane booster for you car, and you should buy it from a specialist octane booster supplier (or something specific to your business)".
The only thing that was a potential problem in john's example is that the guy was plastering his wares right across his profile and then suggesting that people buy products and services from a company exactly like his.
It's all just common sense. I don't remember a problem from you, so I'm sure you're doing just fine.
Cheers
Simon
25 March 2003, 07:06 PM
#84
OK, i understand teh signature thing, but i dont agree with the guy having to take a break from posting for a while. That makes no sense on two fronts. Firstly is that you efectively answer some users questions but ignore other users. That would make the vendor look a bit of a **** in the person who was ignored eyes. Secondly, if they are not regular posters people wont know them, so they wont build up a reputation, which is part of the reason they would be posting on the BBS in the first place to gain a good reputation.
I see no problem with them recomending any action either, as long as that is technically apropriate. In this instance the only really good advice is to use a specialist unless you are highly skilled and have access to special tools.
It sounds almost like you are having a totting up counter of how many times per month you can post, which isnt really practical or of much use to the BBS members.
I see no problem with them recomending any action either, as long as that is technically apropriate. In this instance the only really good advice is to use a specialist unless you are highly skilled and have access to special tools.
It sounds almost like you are having a totting up counter of how many times per month you can post, which isnt really practical or of much use to the BBS members.
25 March 2003, 07:14 PM
#85
dsmith
Neither can I. This is exactly what we're saying, except possibly the "product enquiries" if you mean enquiries like "where can I get x from" or "which product is best x or y".
I would hope you would extend your respect that the moderators can spot this too.
You understand wrong . This is not the case and has never been suggested.
Deano, all we want to do is stop the blatant advertising. We have never and do not have any problem with people giving technical advice. And if they end up getting contracts purely by people respecting them for this, then that's fair and square as far as I'm concerned. There is no negative (present or future) to the community and they have proven their worth already.
It would only be a problem if they actually advertised their products / services.
Cheers
Simon
I simply cannot see what is wrong with vendors replying with factual posts to technical or product enquiries as long as no blatant advertising is involved.
I would like to think I'm able to spot sales pitch from advice
s I understand it, the second any individual or company makes a personal profit from a single scoobynet induced contact they should cease posting on the subject concerned ?
. This is not the case and has never been suggested.Deano, all we want to do is stop the blatant advertising. We have never and do not have any problem with people giving technical advice. And if they end up getting contracts purely by people respecting them for this, then that's fair and square as far as I'm concerned. There is no negative (present or future) to the community and they have proven their worth already.
It would only be a problem if they actually advertised their products / services.
Cheers
Simon
25 March 2003, 07:14 PM
#86
Scooby Regular
I think I might go back to writing computer games for a living....... far less confusing than this !
I appreciate the comment Simon, (probably because I haven't been posting that much on SN lately for various reasons), just trying to figure out the rules. It's all probably irrelevant anyway : as before, many will obey the rules, and a few won't.
I appreciate the comment Simon, (probably because I haven't been posting that much on SN lately for various reasons), just trying to figure out the rules. It's all probably irrelevant anyway : as before, many will obey the rules, and a few won't.
25 March 2003, 07:19 PM
#87
Hi John
I didn't say that he should take a break from posting. Just take a break from posting "You need to take it to a company like mine" for a bit *unless it's un-avoidable*.
People can post the answers to technical questions all day long every day and we encourage that.
Again I will state that this just needs to be common sense. I am *not* using a totting up procedure based on monthly totals or anything even slightly like it. I am just saying that if I were that vendor I would personally think "ok, that was perhaps a bit close to commercial advertising, so I'll be extra careful for a bit".
Cheers
Simon
I didn't say that he should take a break from posting. Just take a break from posting "You need to take it to a company like mine" for a bit *unless it's un-avoidable*.
People can post the answers to technical questions all day long every day and we encourage that.
It sounds almost like you are having a totting up counter of how many times per month you can post, which isnt really practical or of much use to the BBS members.
Cheers
Simon
25 March 2003, 07:38 PM
#88
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Simon - Thanks for the clarification
In that case all would indeed seem reasonable. The insuation that I could spot advertising from advice was indeed intended to imply that 99% of people (inc Mods) could - the remainder are amply catered for by late night infomercial channels
By product enquiries I meant specific questions. e.g
"Does whatnots widget do this ?" - I would expect whatnot to reply with a factual response with no pricing etc.
"How much does servicing my widget @ whatnots cost ?" - Something of the order of "it costs x for a std service. - If you have any more specific questions you can of course contact us directly"
Deano
In that case all would indeed seem reasonable. The insuation that I could spot advertising from advice was indeed intended to imply that 99% of people (inc Mods) could - the remainder are amply catered for by late night infomercial channels
By product enquiries I meant specific questions. e.g
"Does whatnots widget do this ?" - I would expect whatnot to reply with a factual response with no pricing etc.
"How much does servicing my widget @ whatnots cost ?" - Something of the order of "it costs x for a std service. - If you have any more specific questions you can of course contact us directly"
Deano
25 March 2003, 07:44 PM
#89
No probs..
On the first example you gave, agreed 100%
On the "how much does it cost to service my car" thing. I would see the reply you gave as commercial advertising.
Cheers
Simon
On the first example you gave, agreed 100%
On the "how much does it cost to service my car" thing. I would see the reply you gave as commercial advertising.
Cheers
Simon
