boomer

BoxerFlat4,

i think the key (and contentious) point is that "Commercial Posts may be locked".

So far, things seemed to have been handled sensibly, with a bit of friendly banter (as in, "are you going to take out a banner ad?") before any attempt to lock/delete.

Hopefully this will continue, with commercial companies/individuals too embarrassed to try to exploit the BBS (and subject to censorship/deletion if they do). Attempts at free advertising can do more harm than good!

mb

BoxerFlat4

I disagree - IMHO, threads like this occur because the system isn't working. I've been posting on SN for 3 years now, and 1 as a trader, and I'm still no clearer as to what I can and can't post up.

Oh, and ... You'd be astonished at the length some traders will go to ! Embarrassed ? Yeah, right....

boomer

Well after multiple readings of the "Forum Guidelines", i agree that (subject to sensible interpretation), they are good . The only "grey area" in my opinion is "Swearing and offensive words". Is **** offensive (which i have seen used by moderators). Also, what about things like FFS???

IMHO, so long as posts are covered/controlled by the swear-word filter, and people don't use techniques to avoid this, existing word usage is fine.

mb

GM

I think the guidelines are good.

I can't understand why people demand the right to swear - can't they communicate without swearing?

(And yes, I do swear. But not when I don't know how those who will hear me will take it. It may surprise some people but there are still those who find swearing offensive).

johnfelstead

I think my feelings on the interpretation of comercial threads is plain from the link in the previous post by BoxerFlat4. I didnt have an oportunity to reply to that thread as it was locked. I did talk with Simon on Saturday and we agreed to disagree on a few things.

I am not going to expand on that particular thread as it serves no purpose now. In fact i am not going to comment on anything in those guidlines except to say I still disagree with the deleting of information i consider to be helpful to people in solving there problem or trying to find help locally, even if that means mentioning a companies name.

[Edited by johnfelstead - 3/24/2003 11:56:20 PM]

dave_gt

I am a relatively new member of Scoobynet but totally agree with the guidelines that have been set forth. The swearing issue is probably the most controversial; I personally welcome it as I think that 99% of the time if you do not possess the vocabulary to find alternatives, you are likely to lack the intellect to win your argument anyway.

However, there are times when swearing is appropriate and sometimes effective; the problem would be how to determine what asterisked swering is neccessary. I do feel that the idea of an over 18s forum, while offering a potential solution, would incur too much administrative work for the webmaster and moderators.

pwig

Does that mean when I say 'Im going for a Mc Donalds' .. I am breaking the rules??

Cos i am so popular and have such an influence on everyone, and they all want to follow in my footsteps.

But Maccy D's are benifiting from my Mention of them.....

so is mentioning of Brand names allowed?

DemonDave

iTrader: (13)

Guidelines are needed to provide a structure to things. This does not mean they have to be inforced but allows the moderators to use the guidelines as reason. Somebody will always complain about a thread being edited or locked. I have no issue with the guidelines but then again I have never had a thread edited.

Would an alternative be to have another person who can review scoobynetters compliants about moderation ... decide if it was right and pass comment. This way people would feel listened to and if there was too much moderating going on then eventually it would find its own level?

Another alternative would be to ask somebody to edit there own thread before it is moderated and give say an 1hr response time.

Not sure about all of this, it is a sensitive subject and it is easy to see both sides, surely there is just a need for a bit more give and take and a bit of common sense.

Dave

Edited to correct spelling ! (not by a moderator )

[Edited by DemonDave - 3/25/2003 9:24:42 AM]

Brendan Hughes

Generally in favour, also in favour of moderating the swearing somehow but that's going to be a real toughie, with substituted or swapped characters like b@stard, ****, fukc etc. Swear filter also needs updating, IIRC F... is blanked out but **** isn't. And although I dislike swearing - as stated above it often weakens the argument and my view of the poster - a) I don't mind FFS, WTF, and ****, and b) if someone's just had their pride and joy keyed I would not expect them to write a letter to their grandmother about it, nor would I expect responses in a similar vein. it's going to be up to the mods to judge not to hit a guy when he's down, so to speak, and yet to keep some respect in this place.

You have a tough job folks, I wish you well with it.


Edit - Si, I'm really disappointed, I've read them through three times and NOWHERE could I find a request to "bare with us"

[Edited by Brendan Hughes - 3/25/2003 9:54:50 AM]

stephen30

They all seem sensible enough to me and the clarity of what moderators use is welcomed.

Steve

Shark

No mention of that in the T & C’s

Simon, would you agree that this should be changed to the general motoring community ?

Personally I think swearing is a touchy issue, but a lot of people get round it with the *%£$, will this now be stopped?

Lastly – where exactly do joke posts go? I think a good joke should be aired in Non Scooby – am I right?

David

ex-webby

Hi All

Apologies for the delay in replying.

Firstly, these guidelines are mainly so that people can see that the moderators only do things for the right reasons. To prove that there are no hidden agendas. If we openly show the concepts we strive to support, everyone can be openly aware of them, and tell us if they think they need changing.

The swearing issue seems to be a big one. I personally don't see swearing as such an important thing that it warrants the negatives of it offending people and putting people off joining our community. If I am wrong, and this really IS necessary and important, I'll look in to the legal and moral issues more deeply.

Perhaps we should just revert to the stance we have had up until now. Is the balance right for everybody as it stands?

On the commercial thing. This was the best way we could word the basic common sense of the issue.

Basically, we have no problem with people recomending companies. Why would we? The problem is that *some* vendors abuse this "loophole" by posting under different id's / asking people to post for them. This is where the problem arises, and is what we will make every effort to protect you from. Imagine if the worst company in the world got 50 people to constantly say how good they are, and you all take your cars there only to find out they are dodgy dealers, etc.

Re : Prodrive, etc. Due to commercial constraints, prodrive are unable to place an official banner on scoobynet. They do, however provide a lot of benefits (some of which you will have already seen, some of which you will see over the coming months) which are as / more beneficial to the community as a banner advert. They are the only exception to the hard and fast rule I can think of. But they are not getting any special treatment, they are merely providing a different kind of benefit to the hard cash.

Privileges of companies running banner ads. All companies running banner ads are required to NOT spam scoobynet. Now.. they ARE allowed a little bit more flexibility in that, they can openly discuss issues to do with their company / products if they are completely on-topic and not just an advert. But.. AS SOON as we start getting complaints (as a number of vendors have found), we start to restrict what they can post immediately. So it ends up being self regulating, and regulated by the views of the community. If this is unacceptable to people, we need to discuss it in more detail.

Re : Joke threads. If a thread is a just a joke, I think it can be anywhere it is relevant. If a thread is just plain silliness with no relevance, etc, then muppets is the place for it.

All the best

Simon

PS. Bare in mind, that we are not changing anything, just trying to give you a black and white version of what we've been doing for you for a long time, so that you can see and comment on the way we moderate

Brendan Hughes

<bangs head repeatedly against desk>

[Edited by Brendan Hughes - 3/25/2003 12:36:46 PM]

BoxerFlat4

Simon -

Cheers for that : as a member, I approve of the idea of explaining how the moderators will be working, and the ideas and principles behind the BB. Good idea, and one I personally think should be made a sticky topic, for later reference by one and all.

One quick question about the commercial traders (you must be getting fed up with me asking about this ! ) :
So, if I haven't got a banner ad, but somebody posts up asking about a product I sell, which may or may not be unique to my company, which protocol is there for me to reply ? Should I sit back, and hope that the customer approaches me directly, or can I reply at least my contact details ? What if the post is of the "I've been waiting 6 years for the boost doo-hickey I ordered of them, and I've still heard nothing" ? Can I post up my response as a company ?

Like everyone else here, just looking for some clarification. Good work though, 90% I agree with !

scooby_si

Is there any more news with how/when the for sale section is going to be tweaked, improved etc? (in terms of different sections rather than nature of posts was my brief understanding?)
Si

ex-webby

Hi Chaps

Thanks to bredon for his intuitive and insightful response! LOL

Hi Boxer

OK. If you don't have a banner, anything you post commercially is considered a commercial post. So unfortunately, I would respectfully ask that you don't post in the circumstances you have suggested. The reason for this is that it give a clear message to everyone else that it is fine to advertise your company free of charge. If this became the norm, nobody would need to advertise and scoobynet would be no more.

Thank you for being constructive and reasoned on something that is clearly a challenging issue for you.

scooby_si

Can we leave that for another discussion please. This thread is about the guidelines. But just quickly.. there is not specific deadline, as everyone works in their spare time, it is basically as time allows.

All the best

Simon

dhorwich

Not many people on scoobynet use swearing where its not needed...(apart from the muppets) i hear more swearing on the TV than on here why do people have such a problem with it... I 'DONT' agree with fully typed swear words but the use of **## e.t.c is totally acceptable... how on earth can be people be offended buy this, the reason its blanked is so you make up your own mind what it says, i just dont understand..

Here we are at WAR e.t.c and people worry about geting offended by someone typing 'this is a load of s***'...???? which could mean anything.

Dan

[Edited by dhorwich - 3/25/2003 12:41:46 PM]

ex-webby

re the swearing.

I personally agree with your stance, but please remember, that what you think and what I think may not be what the majority of the community thinks.

Has the balance been right so far? If so, I think that's the way we should continue.

All the best

Simon

David Lock

Still no dress code guidelines!!

I took my tie off to post this - just to be contentious :

DL.

BoxerFlat4

Simon -

As far as the swearing is concerned, I think the situation as it stands is fine : expanding the swear filters might be useful, but most people who feel the need to swear tend to "hide" sufficient letters to prevent it being too obvious, and acronyms I think are an even better way of getting the point across.

As far as this :-
A little concerned about this, not so much because I don't get the chance to post commercially (sp), more that I can see some abuse of the system occuring. All it takes is a customer with an attitude, or a misplaced complaint against a non-advertising company, and they will have carte-blanche to post what they like, with no option of response by the company. Understand, I'm not just thinking about my company, but those many small and one-man business out there who rely on word of mouth for survival. I understand why you've had to take this approach, as the situation as been open to abuse, I just feel that these new rules will allow abuse of a different sort to occur.

Tricky one really, I'm struggling to think of a method which would be fair to one and all. Only method I can think, is a situation like NASIOC, with their "Vendor Approved" areas where approved companies can post and respond, but where the general public know that the advice will potentially "biased". At least, that's my understanding of the idea.

ex-webby

Hi Boxer

Remember, that we will also take a very dim view on anything that is potentially libellous, so companies will not be left in the learch unable to defend themeselves.

Remember also, that these practices have been in place for over a year now, so there is nothing new here. We are just respecting the community enough to publish the guidelines we live by.

On the idea of a "vendor approved" area. It seems on the face of it a good idea, but..

how do you approve a vendor? Does that then means that NO commercial posts of any kind at all are allowed in the other forums? This could be even more of a detriment IMHO.

Thanks for your time and input boxer.

All the best

Simon

Echo

I run a website in my spare time and have just had to shell out a grand for legal fees due to people posting articles that (although true) caused some upset - the upset person was very rich so could have caused prolonged and much more expensive hassle. It's a complete mine field and I can understand why Simon needs to be quite careful here! Like Simon, I earn nothing really from the site I run so if legal bills start rolling in the site closes :-(

Mike

Neil Smalley

After discussion with Simon and following your comments regarding the Swearing issue. The wording has been changed from

To

o Whilst the sensored versions of swearing (eg s**t, etc) are usually considered OK, offensive / overuse of this may offend and may be moderated. In addition to this, any deliberate circumvention of the swear word filters is prohibited. Common sense prevails. Eg, the use of images which have swear words in them are not acceptable.

Does that sounds better?

[Edited by Neil Smalley - 3/25/2003 1:54:20 PM]

dhorwich

Perfect..!!

Dan

scooby_si

If u take the "per" off that thou Dan u may still be wot is left
I'll get me coat
Seriously thou i dont think there's much more that can be done 2 protect all those concerned while still allowing 4 this fine board 2 continue but i have been known to miss even the most obvious thing
Si

johnfelstead

Why don’t you mail Nick at NASIOC and ask him how he manages his vendor forum, it works! You could also ask Jamie (Subie Gal) the same question as she has helped set that up and is also a vendor representative so knows how it works from both sides.

Having a policy that is so rigid with regards to small companies posting useful information about their products on here is going to kill (or at least slow down) their opportunity to grow into a size that can afford to buy a banner add. There are countless companies that started out on this BBS by posting the occasional bit of advice with their contact details, some of them have grown and now have banners, some are still in their early growth stage and commercially cant afford a banner, but may do so in future.

I really am worried this policy is going to be a negative thing for the future growth of the marketplace for users of this BBS, and long term it will limit the amount of potential future income for the BBS itself. It seems the only angle being considered is that having non-banner add businesses posting is going to damage the board and it's income, I see this as 180 degrees the opposite. The more I think about it, the more I can’t agree with this stance.

Simon, with regards to this. Yes Prodrive can give benefits to the community with things like the ATD drive, having Dave Lapworth interviewed, having Damien post his thoughts on handling, it’s all great stuff. I think you are being a little closed minded though, because it could equally be said that there are vendors out there that can offer similar levels of advice to members of this BBS, but on different subjects, such as for example, car care products and their application, uprated gearbox internals advice, hybrid turbo’s etc etc which are equally of benefit, if not more so to the daily users of this BBS/Subaru’s in general. It’s just different types of benefits and you are limiting that benefit in kind to what you feel is important, rather than what others may feel is important. I am not in any way criticizing you personally here, I am just pointing out that there needs to be some flexibility if this community is going to continue to grow, part of that growth is the expansion in marketplace which has resulted from some freedom of vendors to post on this BBS.

Prodrive are probably the one company that least needs a banner add anyway, as they are the official Subaru partner for upgrades and they get mentioned every day in 10’s of threads relating to the PPP, suspension, wheel etc upgrades. It’s great to have them posting on here, it’s great to have the likes of Mike Wood giving information to users of this BBS when they see questions regarding PPP, but these guys are limited in what they can say, they have to be thinking about how what they say could affect the Prodrive/FHI/IM partnership, so they cant always say what they want to and cant give information as freely as might otherwise be possible. This is where the smaller vendors who right now, are in their infancy and unable to justify £150/month payment, can give massive input. I believe we as a community should support the smaller vendors and help them grow, that way this BBS can long term benefit commercially, which is what this debate is all about, keeping the BBS up and running for it’s members to use.

This is all IMHO and I am not trying to do anything other than give an alternative view, I hope you can take that onboard with the intent understood. This is most likely the last time I will post these thoughts, as I don’t want to come across as continually banging the drum on a subject I may not get my way on. I am just trying to be constructive in the only way I am capable.

ex-webby

Hi John (can we try to keep replies short and to the point if at all possible - I accept they can't always be - as time is incredibly limited)

I agree that small vendors can give benefit back, and there are no rules in place to stop them being able to offer advice on technical / practical issues. As an indirect result of this they may end up getting a good reputation on scoobynet and gain future business. This is fine.

The problem is only if they post "you can buy that product from me". That is not advice, that is a sales pitch.

The VERY important thing to be sure about here john is. I AGREE WITH YOU (ps.. I don't type in caps to signify shouting, I write in caps to emphasise something important).

Everything we are doing is to ensure flexibility and common sense, but allow us to moderate the people who abuse it / post blatant adverts.

The reasons why this is necessary are obvious, and have already been stated.

Thanks for your comments, and once again, I agree 100% and what you are suggesting is already in place.

All the best

Simon

Wuss

Moderators,

Great work! With so many registered Users on this bbs the need for control becomes all the more important.

I would, however, like to voice my concern over the issues regarding the unacceptable use of swear words. Who is to say what is and is not 'in context' or 'relevant'? I have just posted up a reply to a thread that detailed a protracted, traumatic episode involving my car and a convicted criminal:

"...I had only had my brand new Dark Blue Mica MY00 two months when I returned home from work (8.30pm) and found the police outside my house. Some p*ssed w*nker had been on an all day drinking session and had crashed into 8 cars before being arrested. Mine was the seventh and he caused £2,000 worth of damage. I cannot explain how bad it was to find my £21,000 pride and joy smashed in after only two months of ownership."

Would the term 'inebriated undesirable' have been more appropriate? Some people would find the above paragraph acceptable, others wouldn't. How do you please all of the people all of the time?

I wonder what proportion of the people who swear on this bbs are intellectually challenged?!! Well, it's a good thing I bought my degree in Theoretical Mathematics and didn't bother working my f*cking a*se off for it!!

Wuss (who had better watch his language from now on!)

PS. I would recommend that a thread should be left intact unless a specific complaint is directed at that thread.

PPS. I also think that some of the funniest threads I have ever read on Scoobynet have contained the worst language you could possibly imagine - as long as it is all light-hearted and not abuse directed at a fellow contributor...


[Edited by Wuss - 3/25/2003 3:22:56 PM]

ex-webby

LOL

I have to say, that I personally find very strong language, when not used offensively, incredibly funny and even a term of enderement (sp?) at times!!!

Derek & Clive is in my opinion one of the funniest things of all time.

But..

That's not everyone's view, and I would never be arrogant enough to say that what I say goes.

So.. whilst I agree with your above post, I do think that the only way to deal with it is as we already have been. As it's basically that or ban it all as there are no in-betweens.

All the best

Simon

Wuss

Simon,

I'm with you on Derek and Clive!!

Wuss.