Daily driver 2.4 or 2.5 project - target 450 BHP/400lbft reliable
25 February 2003, 03:54 PM
#63
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Thanks for the link Andy. Not convinced by H section, but the material spec looks good 
John, I guess you could increase the fuel pressure even more than that, by why not just get bigger injectors to start with? They are the same price as smaller ones anyway!
John, I guess you could increase the fuel pressure even more than that, by why not just get bigger injectors to start with? They are the same price as smaller ones anyway!
25 February 2003, 04:14 PM
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If you can tell me where to get 740s for £260 I'll bite your hand off Also I want to stick with the standard ECU if possible, it will not idle well on 740s, since on this vintage of ECU I don't have access to the necessary compensation maps.
If I use a rising rate fuel pressure reg I don't think 450 BHP will be a problem. I only run 12:1 AFR anyway
Also I want to stick with the standard ECU if possible, it will not idle well on 740s, since on this vintage of ECU I don't have access to the necessary compensation maps.If I use a rising rate fuel pressure reg I don't think 450 BHP will be a problem. I only run 12:1 AFR anyway
25 February 2003, 04:23 PM
#65
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Cheapest I've seen is £400 for 4 850s. The high resistance injectors for the GC8 are more expensive than others...
Do you think the standard ECU will compensate for that much more airflow? What can you access in it? How do you control the ignition timing and in what increaments?
Do you think the standard ECU will compensate for that much more airflow? What can you access in it? How do you control the ignition timing and in what increaments?
25 February 2003, 04:37 PM
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It is in my interests to get the stadndard ECU to support this project if possible since the business I run in my spare time to fund all these mods 
is based around remapping the standard ECU If it is a no-goer, I am happy to accept that the standard ECU will not get to double standard power easily, but:
Airflow - I have capacity for 25% more mass airflow through the present sensor - I have access to the calibration map, which is 16 bit and 32 calibration points with interpolation. Presently I estimate I am at 380 BHP. I have an intake setup which lowers the MAF voltage which is quite handy to get more range out of the standard sensor.
Boost - the standard MAP sensor is capable on the standard ECU of up to 1.7 bar, if I need more I can use a different MAP sensor and rescale.
Ignition - I have access to the 16*16 ignition maps (you can adjust the load and RPM sites to any set of 16 values with 50 RPM resolution). The resolution is 1 degree, but that seems adequate.
Same with the fuel maps, resolution is about 0.1 AFR points.
I don't have access to cranking timing, coolant temperature compensations, warm up cycles, but I can change some values on the top row of the fuel map which the starting fuelling is based on. With injectors too big I would end up with making the base map lean so that on starting the cold enrichment would not end up far too much (based on 440s). With the 2.33 I hope 550s with a rising rate would work better than 550s on standard reg on 2.0 as now.
The Denso ECUs in the bugeyes have all this sorted and these maps are all accessible. Mr JECS did not write a friendly ECU for modifying
Mr Denso was very organised with his coding.
is based around remapping the standard ECU If it is a no-goer, I am happy to accept that the standard ECU will not get to double standard power easily, but:Airflow - I have capacity for 25% more mass airflow through the present sensor - I have access to the calibration map, which is 16 bit and 32 calibration points with interpolation. Presently I estimate I am at 380 BHP. I have an intake setup which lowers the MAF voltage which is quite handy to get more range out of the standard sensor.
Boost - the standard MAP sensor is capable on the standard ECU of up to 1.7 bar, if I need more I can use a different MAP sensor and rescale.
Ignition - I have access to the 16*16 ignition maps (you can adjust the load and RPM sites to any set of 16 values with 50 RPM resolution). The resolution is 1 degree, but that seems adequate.
Same with the fuel maps, resolution is about 0.1 AFR points.
I don't have access to cranking timing, coolant temperature compensations, warm up cycles, but I can change some values on the top row of the fuel map which the starting fuelling is based on. With injectors too big I would end up with making the base map lean so that on starting the cold enrichment would not end up far too much (based on 440s). With the 2.33 I hope 550s with a rising rate would work better than 550s on standard reg on 2.0 as now.
The Denso ECUs in the bugeyes have all this sorted and these maps are all accessible. Mr JECS did not write a friendly ECU for modifying
Mr Denso was very organised with his coding.
25 February 2003, 05:00 PM
#69
I've found somewhere that can supply pukka Denso/Jecs 740cc injectors for about £400. Also new 850s that use adaptors for about the same.
Used higher flowing injectors are thin on the ground, and all that are left are going for mega money.
Paul
Used higher flowing injectors are thin on the ground, and all that are left are going for mega money.
Paul
25 February 2003, 08:56 PM
#72
Jeez, if only I could find more injectors! I get at least one person a week after a set.
They are so rare to find used and cheap, that it would make more sense in my opinion to buy new ones. You can order direct from AVO in Australia, or some places sell the Blitz 550s (same as I supplied to John and so on), you can also buy Tomei 550s and 740s from the US.
The Blitz, Apexi and most other brands of 550s and 850s are in fact the same, also the same as I supplied used to about 12 people in the past 6 months or so. I made adaptors to fit them into phase 2 rails initially, and recently made some more ( to be used with the main adaptors) to also fit them to phase 1 rails. I've since found out that some companies sell them with the adaptors already.
I also sourced new o-rings for all areas of the injectors for silly money, something like £1.50 for 100 o-rings, Subaru charge about £5 for 4. Again I have the part numbers and spare o-rings for anyone that needs them.
I will repost this info along with pictures and locations to buy new injectors, mainly in the US.
Anyone that needs parts to fit them to a phase 1 or phase 2 Subaru fuel rail let me know and I can sort you out.
I can do some adaptors to fit phase 2 Tomei/Nismo injectors (often sold for SR20DET fuel rails which are the same, JECS type) into phase 1 rails. What I currently have for the Blitz style 550s might work with a suitable o-ring too.
Paul
They are so rare to find used and cheap, that it would make more sense in my opinion to buy new ones. You can order direct from AVO in Australia, or some places sell the Blitz 550s (same as I supplied to John and so on), you can also buy Tomei 550s and 740s from the US.
The Blitz, Apexi and most other brands of 550s and 850s are in fact the same, also the same as I supplied used to about 12 people in the past 6 months or so. I made adaptors to fit them into phase 2 rails initially, and recently made some more ( to be used with the main adaptors) to also fit them to phase 1 rails. I've since found out that some companies sell them with the adaptors already.
I also sourced new o-rings for all areas of the injectors for silly money, something like £1.50 for 100 o-rings, Subaru charge about £5 for 4. Again I have the part numbers and spare o-rings for anyone that needs them.
I will repost this info along with pictures and locations to buy new injectors, mainly in the US.
Anyone that needs parts to fit them to a phase 1 or phase 2 Subaru fuel rail let me know and I can sort you out.
I can do some adaptors to fit phase 2 Tomei/Nismo injectors (often sold for SR20DET fuel rails which are the same, JECS type) into phase 1 rails. What I currently have for the Blitz style 550s might work with a suitable o-ring too.
Paul
25 February 2003, 10:26 PM
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Ideally I suppose you'd fit a new fuel rail with 850s and a new ECU to get good cold start, temperature compensation and easy injector calibration. But I can see that you want to use the standard ECU since that's what you do.
27 February 2003, 10:50 AM
#75
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Nice one John hope it works out for you, just seen the thread, haven't ventured into the projects section before lol. I'll be sure to come back though as i'm always after ideas 
Ahh the infamous Claudius, i notice you've changed your location
i think this info still applies though doesnt it
Car & Mods Evo 6 TME, custom welded roll cage, Öhlins, 2.2l JUN engine and 75% RS rear LSD, AO32Rs
Biography I was born, grew up, still learn and do not plan to die LOL
Location France
Interests Evos, Sex and Drugs
I see you haven't replied to this thread m8
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?ThreadID=170144&Page=4
Sorry to hijack John couldn't resist
Ahh the infamous Claudius, i notice you've changed your location
i think this info still applies though doesnt it
Car & Mods Evo 6 TME, custom welded roll cage, Öhlins, 2.2l JUN engine and 75% RS rear LSD, AO32Rs
Biography I was born, grew up, still learn and do not plan to die LOL
Location France
Interests Evos, Sex and Drugs
I see you haven't replied to this thread m8
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?ThreadID=170144&Page=4
Sorry to hijack John couldn't resist
21 March 2003, 12:52 PM
#79
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Update:
Whilst I am away in Claudius' nice country for two weeks, work will continue on my 2.33 short motor. Some STi 5 heads are getting ported and skimmed to give me 8.5:1.
740cc injectors I am chasing.
Lateral Gearbox waiting.
Whilst I am away in Claudius' nice country for two weeks, work will continue on my 2.33 short motor. Some STi 5 heads are getting ported and skimmed to give me 8.5:1.
740cc injectors I am chasing.
Lateral Gearbox waiting.
03 June 2003, 01:52 PM
#89
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Gruppe S headers just received. Andy's 410 ish BHP at Star with only 1.35 bar talked me into this one.
Depending on results I'll decide how much if any NF to run (controversial )
It seems 400lbft may be more the challenge than 450 BHP?
Andrew has sent me the board to use as a basis for the speed-density conversion of JECS if I can get around to it. Trying to decide on which exact water injection kit to get. Might use the same board to drive it (RPM vs Boost with water solenoid duty cycle in a little map). I have a spare PWM output, spare 256 bytes of memory for the map, and a suitable driver circuit for the 13 ohm solenoid.
The block and heads are now in the same place and should be with me middle of the month.
Just about all the other bits are rounded up.
Insurers don't mind about the increased capacity.
Still intending to try first on the 20G... if choke or surge are issues I will pursue the GT37 76mm 52 trim compressor wheel or a proper Garrett CHRA/P20 hybrid.
[Edited by john banks - 6/3/2003 1:53:22 PM]
[Edited by john banks - 6/3/2003 1:56:10 PM]
Depending on results I'll decide how much if any NF to run (controversial
)It seems 400lbft may be more the challenge than 450 BHP?
Andrew has sent me the board to use as a basis for the speed-density conversion of JECS if I can get around to it. Trying to decide on which exact water injection kit to get. Might use the same board to drive it (RPM vs Boost with water solenoid duty cycle in a little map). I have a spare PWM output, spare 256 bytes of memory for the map, and a suitable driver circuit for the 13 ohm solenoid.
The block and heads are now in the same place and should be with me middle of the month.
Just about all the other bits are rounded up.
Insurers don't mind about the increased capacity.
Still intending to try first on the 20G... if choke or surge are issues I will pursue the GT37 76mm 52 trim compressor wheel or a proper Garrett CHRA/P20 hybrid.
[Edited by john banks - 6/3/2003 1:53:22 PM]
[Edited by john banks - 6/3/2003 1:56:10 PM]