Trout...

John,

that's impressive at the wheels figures - is that at Star - I believe all you boys with kilts were off there last weekend?

Trout

T-uk

trout,

the figures at star were not consistent. Andyf has never been more than a few bhp away from star(with his ap22) but for some reason the scoobs he tested straight after their runs,made far better power at wheels with ap22. jb and andy have used the ap22 many times and always enters the same calibration. jb has recently started using the delta dash road dyno and it gives very similar results to the ap22.

star used to be very consistent with scoobs and then as they started to do evo's,the results for them read very high.an evo owner spent an afternoon at star trying different run and load timings and now star seem good for evo's and out for scoobs.

the operator has actually asked that jb and andy spend an afternoon there to try and get the rollers accurate again. at the air field 1/4 mile drags straight after the rolling road session,jb's car took 6 car lengths on a heavily modded evo7 that made 420bhp fly wheel on the rollers,as we were launching the car gently because jb was too miserable to let me fit one of mark's clutches,I think this made the operator realise something was not right.

[Edited by T-uk - 2/12/2003 8:53:02 AM]

john banks

The run time at Star is 35 seconds compared with 7 on the road. Equalising this time will be interesting and relevant.

Absolute Shower

I thought STi7s came with VF30's not 34's...I was told this by Jamie Whit.

Anyone have a chart (or something) to confirm the different sizes of these turbos...???

john banks

JDM STi 7 is VF30, RA spec C is 34 (?), UK STi 7 is 35 (?), always mix the last two up.

Absolute Shower

John, what's the size format for VF's, ie VF30 smaller than VF34?

I know the TD04 is smaller than the TD05, TD06...

john banks

They are not numbered in order of size. VF22 > VF28 < VF30 for example!

Absolute Shower

Why do they do that???!!

John, do you recommend the TD05 most at the moment (taking it that's what you are using)?

Mr J

They are nubmber by the when they were constructed..in a kind of way....
VF22 is the oldest type of VF turbo and VF35 the new one...

If I have got everything right that..is...

/Jan

Absolute Shower

Interesting...but take it they're in different sizes and not just age???

john banks

I think the TD05 is perfectly capable for a standard engine and gearbox.

Absolute Shower

From what I've heard, I'd agree...the TD05 sounds very good on spool up and max puff.

Mr J

Diffrent in design/size etc..but have nothing to do with how much BHP it will flow

/Jan

Andy.F

The TD05 is an excellent bit of kit in front entry mode Even better in 20G compressor upgrade mode

Turbo_Steve

Ok....Td05 sounds like the mutts nutts for those not wishing to go internal on our older cars.

I assume fitting one requires a remap (Scooby ECU?).

Currently, I have a UK Legacy Turbo, which I understand has a VF11 (is that right?). Everyones opinion of these seems to be rubbish: I assume it has poor flow charecteristics AND a slow spool up time?

Turbo_Steve

Apologies...I didn't mean it to sound like the turbo would 'make the engine stronger"
I really must learn to paraphrase better.

I meant exactly what you have just said, really: That the TD05 is a good turbo for those going to bigger horsepower but not mad.

i.e. the TD05 is a good soloution for those who aren't already spending £2000 on a rebuild. (mind you, I had a rebuild, and had it all done standard. D'oh)

But nobody has actually told me what is so bad about my little VF11 jobbie yet? And if it is a VF11 or a VF12?

T-uk

trout,

I too feel that 1.7bar is too much for a standard uk open deck block but john's engine feels so much happier with the td05 over his old vf based hybrid at lower boost,he decided to basically see what it can take and push everything,destruction testing if you like,while controlling det and tightening fuelling.this is what he was trying to do with the md304 but as the boost rose he was loosing power over a certain level,also the car was not happy,knocklink and det cans confirmed this as did the exhaust note when I was standing at the side of the road during the ap22 tests.at first we thought it was probably his 2.5" exhaust system which probably does have a small part in pushing over 350bhp but the proof came from the turbo swap.

I am sure john will come and tell you exactly what gains to the map he has made with the td but the car feels much more responsive low down and much less strangled.also holding boost no longer seems a problem.when he ran my lateral performance td05 with 1/2bar actuator,which was non-adjustable,he could easily get it to hold more up top than the md with 1.2 tightened actuator.





[Edited by johnfelstead - 2/13/2003 9:25:38 PM]

Andy.F

Turbo Steve - In reply to your VF turbo question, I suggest you drop Paul Blamire (Pavlo) an Email as I believe he had/has a VF11 turbo.

Andy

[Edited by Andy.F - 2/13/2003 6:22:07 PM]

[Edited by johnfelstead - 2/13/2003 9:23:40 PM]

T-uk

trout,

I don't think the TD05 has unique magical qualities of enabling you to take the calculated risk of running 1.6-1.7bar on an engine with standard internals. The risk is the same whatever turbo you choose to run at that level! But it is cheap.

you were referring to john's car with this statement were you not? the point is,as far as john's car is concearned,that it does seem happier with higher boost with the td over the vf hybrid at lower boost.iirc,and please correct me if I am wrong john,the engine was happy with the hybrid at 1.4bar but felt stressed at 1.5bar.with the td the engine is happy at 1.55bar and was pushed to 1.7bar at the airfield with no reds or even oranges on the knocklink,therefore I think the
whatever turbo you choose to run at that level is unaccurate.



[Edited by johnfelstead - 2/13/2003 9:22:15 PM]

john banks

All I can do is report my findings and my interpretations of them:

The TD05 continues to make more torque and power at least up to the level I have got it at now, I have a series of 13 road dyno plots as best as I can control the conditions to show the progression from 1.5 dropping to 1.4 bar going up to 1.67 bar dropping to 1.5 bar. I have stopped here after looking at the compressor map, measuring the way the car responds and discussing with Andy F re his experiences and thoughts on the sweet spot on the TD05. If I had tried to get the MD304 to do what the TD05 is doing either it or my engine would have let go by now I am totally convinced. That is obvious to anyone that has been in the car as it was early January and then saw it perform at the airfield or passengered in it or drove it. I am as happy with the way my engine is behaving now as I was with 35 BHP less at the wheels with the MD304.

Andy.F

I firmly believe that we should be monitoring exhaust backpressure prior to turbine. The boost pressure we are running is almost meaningless.

When I tried 1.6 bar with my restrictive exhaust and intake on the standard TD05 I had less than 300 bhp. The car was also very prone to det on the standard JDM maps.

I then upgraded my exhaust, inlet and intercooler. The same 1.6 bar boost with the same turbo and same JDM maps netted 369bhp. This required NF and a splash of Methanol in the water injection to eliminate det.

Now I run the TD05/06 hybrid at the same 1.6 bar boost with the same JDM maps (but bigger injectors) and now have an easy 432bhp Det free, without the need for water injection, NF or Methanol.

I'm sure that if I measured my EGP throughout, it would have been falling at each stage. This makes life so much easier for the engine in terms of pressure and temperature. In my opinion I am at less risk now, running 430+ than when I originally pushed for 300bhp

Andy.

JB We need to try this hybrid on your car



[Edited by johnfelstead - 2/13/2003 9:21:21 PM]

Trout...

T-UK,

I have no idea what you are talking about.

A number of people run various turbos to 1.6-1.7bar on standard internals - what I was pointing out - as John had responded - is that if you do - be prepared to take the risks. John is happy to take that risk.

As Andy posted earlier - he took a risk - most likely had a det problem - and suffered for it. Det kills engines.

My response was to suggest that whatever turbo you used - this was something to take into consideration.

I also run up to 1.7bar on standard internals - it is a risk that I take - and I don't run a TD05 - that in of itself is irrelevent and was not the subject of this thread.n However my car also runs with no det - with very low noise levels as the airflow is cool and the boost genuine.



[Edited by johnfelstead - 2/13/2003 9:20:05 PM]

johnfelstead

edited/deleted posts in this thread to stop all the dummie spitting and windup merchant activity.

Keep it on topic or i will delete this thread.

Paul_M

so what is the main benefit of the TD04 that gave subaru reason to change to it for the MY97 cars? I always thought it came in much earlier than the TD05 and was therefore more driveable, in my car boost seems to build from 2k RPM and is at full puff by 3k which holds to about 6k. Very little lag when the throttle is applied with the revs over 3k.

But what I'm reading in this thread indicates that with decent mapping the TD05 is at 1bar boost from below 3k which would put it on a par with the TD04 plus all the extra boost and lower charge temps at higher RPM. Surely there must be a drawback, is this in the form of increased lag compared to the TD04? Is there much boost produced between 2k and 3k on the TD05, since I find this area of the rev range is vital to town driving with a UK gearbox and when off-boost the EJ20 is pretty gutless.

Still considering what to map out in my long term plans

john banks

For a 215 BHP car Subaru chose the right turbo IMHO, so they were right to switch from the TD05. For an enthusiast driver who would like more like 300-350 BHP then the TD05 is far more exciting. With the right bits and map the TD05 can be relatively lag free.

[Edited by john banks - 2/13/2003 9:47:39 PM]

T-uk

thanks johnf for keeping this open.

trout,
would you agree that removing cats and fitting a good flowing exhaust help a turbo charged car?

the vf/hybrids seems to have a very high back pressure which kills the low down response of the engine.

I am guessing that you have one of these vf based turbos(cannot recall your current spec),if you do I would like to hear what your car does in second gear,WOT from 1500rpm to 4000rpm.the vf cars I have driven,not just with JB remaps have felt disappointing.they feel very strangeled and although there is boost nothing is happening.

I feel this is why people like their vf's,they are so poor low down that when the car does start to pull they think they are making huge power and not really willing to listen to others observations.I know the guy in this thread took some convincing for example . you see nothing to do with anything such as scottish......,we even open up on our own when they bury their head in the sand .

I am using jb's car as he has switched and the engine does seem happier and actually does something low down now.



[Edited by T-uk - 2/13/2003 10:21:11 PM]

Andy.F

Paul

I've never had a TD04 on my car so cannot make comparisons. JB and T-uk have done some data logging though, I think the TD05 comes quite close. The performance off boost may even be slightly better as there is less restriction in the exhaust system.

Andy

john banks

Picture paints a thousand words.....



This is at about the 1/4 mile point.

I like the TD05 because it does this to 420 BHP Evos And it did it again as well just to be sure with different drivers and similar launches.

Paul_M

Thanks guys, I'm getting more convinced by this TD05 idea all the time. Still a long way off mind cos the required remapping ain't the easiest or cheapest for the MY98 ECU.

John I'd still fancy that passenger ride sometime if it's still on and I get the opportunity before you go to the next level. Are there any forthcoming events you'll be attending? Unfortunately my irregular work pattern means getting to events is very hit and miss but if I'm available I'll make the effort. Cheers.

john banks

Next event will most likely be another gearbox replacing session Although I might not be able to resist the TD06 purple monster for more than a few more days

It is kind of already at the next level the spec with the boost I am running and the fact that it stopped being a daily driver after the first gearbox went, and would give a false impression of what you could do by just bolting on a scrapyard turbo. Of course all the supporting stuff makes the difference too and unlocks the potential.

[Edited by john banks - 2/13/2003 10:30:35 PM]