JaseM

No probs though with the JDM variant (old shape) look fine 2 me.

JDMCTR

Good to see that some people know about the MK1 then

Olly

Has anyone else ever wondered how these new breed of overweight hot hatches would compare in terms of laptimes against the "old skool"?

Wonder how slower a 1800 Mk1 GTi would be against an R32? Or a Civic against, say a a 1900 205? Or a Clio 172 against a Williams? Would make an interesting Top Gear.

PS Its the Focus for me. I like the R32 as well. Civic looks odd, but seems a bargain in comparison. Strangely the Alfa floats the boat, especially in RED. First Alfa EVER to do that.

scoob_dood

Why compare the old Mk1 GTi to the R32, the R32 isn't a GTi ...

I believe the Anniversary GTi has been compared to the original, and was quicker .... but I have no evidence to back this up

- Jon

JaseM

In terms of 'real' hot hatches then, I would say yes to the focus, CTR & clio cup.

They represent the bare essentials, for those of us whom were driving the 'hot hatches' in the 80's n early 90's now that we are getting on a bit lol, a bit of comfort is welcome.

Hence the R32, S3 147 gta are appreciated.

GaryC

Hot Hatch? You can keep your Daganham Dustbins ( ), Screaming Rice Rockets( ), Overweight German panza wagons ( ) - the 147 GTA would get my money if I was looking at a Hot Hatch.

250bhp Italian V6 and Italian styling..... cuore sportivo especially as Alfa have the reliability licked. Three years of Alfa ownership (145 cloverleaf/156 V6/GTV V6) were the most problem free I've ever had

chrisp

Must say tha 147 interior is nice but the front is terrible with that big bit missing at the front looks like it hasnt been finish or something has fallen off in the middle. The alloys are straight of an XR3i IMHO. The GTV coupe was nice but too small inside and didnt have the best chassis either. Never driven a 147 but I have driven V6 FWD cars and they always felt very heavy at the front due to the weight of the engine. Not sure about the R32 golf the 4-motion didnt seem to be that popular. The mark1 and 2 GTIO were superb pieces of kit, like alot of cars (including scoobs) they grew up and got solid, better built and secure but slow.

Type R

Swisskenny I drive the JDM CTR (MK1), and no I havent driven the new Golf Fuddy Duddy R32.

Why?

Well look at it, the local Biffa Truck has more disguinshed lines for a Sports car.

I wouldt even consider it on my shopping list, what with a 3.2 litre engine and 4X4 it should lap a lot quicker than it did, 0 - 60 in under 7 seconds is hardly jaw dropping. Would like to see how the brakes handle after 5 laps of Donnington

Not a massive fan of the EP3 (New CTR), due to its looks, but it is fun, tail happy, loads of power in the right places, very tuneable, same with the RS, it has character as has the 172 and Cup.

It is all in my opinion and if I was spending that money, from what I want for a car, the Golf is not it, and hasnt been for quite a while.

ChrisB

That 147 looks the dogs danglies

chrisp

All these comment about track times are a joke IMHO. We are talking a professional racing driver doing the times. The average driver in street wont get near those times. Would you get in a ring with a professional boxer .

So its a question of how much effort/talent is required to get those times how much of the time is made by the driver and how much the car is predictable and neutral to drive.

I am convinced as an a average bloke in the street (like me) would be quicker in a four wheel drive motor than a 2wd hot hatch, its well known the scoob gives you a good head start and plenty of predictable feedback and confidence.

Look at the star in the resonably priced car times. They are in the same car and times are nearly 20 seconds difference (okay some were wet and some were dry but 20 seconds is miles for the same car). The Suzuki isnt that powerful so cornering and straight line speeds arent massively high, if they were in higher powered cars the times would be even more spread out as some drivers are better than others and would to able to use the machinery to more effect.

Put it this way a pro racing driver in a WRX and normal bloke off the street in a CTR/R32/FRS my money would be on the WRX even though its the slowest on that track with the racing driver driving it . That goes for any of the cars. It would be interesting to see a normal driver in all the cars and then see how the times change .

polarbearit

Am I only person that hates the way VAG prop up an ageing car with a limited 'ultimate' type car...

The Golf is due replacement very soon (as is the A6/RS6).

Personally I think £23k is pushing it for a hot hatch - however good and however strong the VW image I'd never spend so much on a shopping car!

Of all the hatches mentioned I'd probably go for a 172 or CTR - at least they are realistically priced (and whilst they won't have the Golf's short term residuals £13k on a 172 is still £10k less than the golf!)...

Now if they did a Golf R32 estate preferably without the arches etc then that would amuze!

For me though I'll be staying one up with the R33

Vanker

Oh there are just too many choices these days. I must say I would not touch a VAG vehicle with yours & that goes for a ford as well. Then I used to say that about jap crap a few years ago.

GaryC

ALL manufacturers do the same thing, even Subaru with the RB5 (and P1) 12 months before the bug-eye was launched. Most of the Hot hatches mentioned here have been launched pretty close to a new model's ETA. Focus RS (although given its 64year development time it should've been sooner ), Clio 172 was launched 6 months before the facelift...only the CTR isn't, and even then a new/facelifted civic is due in 2004.

Far better to do that than slash prices on aging models prior to replacement and thus knacker everyone's residuals!!!

VFM is a very imotive subject. The 172 is £15k (only the stripped out 'cup' is cheaper - and £13k not £12k ). The R32 is just over £22k - yes both would be cheaper on import, but with the higher price, the R32 has the potential for higher savings). But the R32 is a lot more car. A far bigger car for a start off, far better build quality, 'kit', engineering, 40% more powerful engine, AWD traction - it is a 'class' above. When/if the Polo 'R' comes out, THAT would be the 172 contender.

As said above, my money would go on a 147 GTA, and I do think VW have missed a trick by not making the R32 significantly faster/better than the 4motion, but compare the R32 with it equivalent from Merc/BMW/Audi (far closer comparisons). The Merc sport coupe's 192bhp C230k SE is £23k, BMW Compacts 192bhp 325ti is £22.6K) and the 225bhp Audi S3 is £24.8k. The R32 has more kit, and comes in anything from £600 to £2500 cheaper!

chrisp

Gary I see where you are coming from but the R32 is in limbo its better kit than a CTR or 172 but a lot more expensive it wont take sales off Mercedes as it aint got the badge . I am not a badge snob but a lot of people are. When asked most people would rather say I drive an Audi/Mercedes/BMW before saying I drive a VW Golf. To me thats why the 4motion didnt do very well as it went into a market where there is already limited appeal. There are far better AWD cars with a better image for being an AWD on the road. Image sells and the R32 doesnt have one at the moment. If VW really pushed, marketed and rallied it and got it right up there they may have a winner, as it sounds like a good car but IMHO they will sell a few to die hard VW fans and to people who want to try one as the latest car to hit the market but I cant see it been a huge seller.

polarbearit

Gary -

As usual I disagree

1 you can buy a full spec UK 172 brand new for £13k from a main dealer - I know this because a friend of mine did so a couple of months back and got a very good price on his PX, I'd suspect cash would have bought a 172 even cheaper!

2 Runnout models - Granted other marques do develop hot hatches etc later in model life, but VAG usually already have what should be very hot models prior to the launch of their 'runout range' - these cars IMHO are usually not competitive with classleaders (S4, S6, 4motion etc etc), with Subaru's RB5 and P1 models, nothing performance wise that wasn't available with other Subaru models was offered with these (though granted the P1 was more powerful then any other official UK car)...

GaryC

Chris - higher VW models DO take sales off BMW/Merc. Many years ago, I almost went for a BMW 318ti until I drove a VR6 and realised what my (company) pound would get me. Many other I know have one the same thing. I certainly agree, VW do not have the 'badge', but it is getting there, especially with the Golf. But people who want a solid, well specc'd, quick germanic car are those who would go for the R32/Merc Coupe/BMW Compact/Audi over the 172/CTR etc. It is pretty obvious the R32 competes with those brands more than the 'cheaper brands', perhaps more the pity as it has lost what made the Mk1 Golf so good!? VW is a more quality brand the in yesteryear, and thus all models have to conform.
10 years ago, VW was no better than Ford/Vauxhall etc, it is now a class above. VWs gameplan is to take the VW brand to compete with Mercedes - sounds barmy I know, but it's working. The Audi S3 has to be the closest competitor (AWD hatch, 200bhp+), but the Golf outshines it in all areas. £1500 cheaper, better specc'd, more powerful etc etc.

I agree with you that the pure badge snob would still go BMW/Merc/Audi, but there arn't as many as you think, especially when they look at what their cash could get them. AND these same badge snobs are those that would go for the Golf over the Peugeots/Renaults/Fords/Vauxhalls/Hondas etc!


PB - you can't compare negotiated discounts Every car has discount potential dependant on circumstances. Compare the fixed (list) price. The 172 is £15k, the R32 is £22.3k - but as said above, is a lot more (and very different) car for the money - the two arn't really competitors.

Dunno about you, but I am glad manufacturers continually develop their cars and engines and make them faster, more powerful. All manufacturers bring more powerful models out the supercede what was the fastest/top model. You wouldn't complain at BMW for bringing the 330i out when they had the 328i, or for bringing the M3 out when they had the 330i, or when they brought out the E36 M3 EVO when they had the M3. All manufacturers continue to develop their cars to keep them as competitive as possible, and to react to consumer freedback - That is what the R32 has done (or at least tried to do) - take the complaints/criticism about the 4Motion and improve it in the more performance orientated R32 whilst keeping the 4motion as the soft/luxury option. The R32 is not a roll out model. The new golf is between 2 and 3 years away. The Focus RS is more of a role out model, as was the original 172 (which really WAS a run-out model). The Subaru MY99 was as much a roll out model as the R32 is (both 2 years away from a know replacement)! VW have said for years they are going to have an 'R' range to rival BMW's 'M' and Audi's 'S' etc etc this was on the cards for a couple of years and billed as the 'will be' flagship.

As I see it, the R32 is the next development in the Golf lifecycle. A new model as been brought out with all Golfs (Mk2 - 16v, Mk3 - VR6) all have replaced previously thought of top models. I can't see what the criticism of the R32 really is?? Surely a 235bhp NA hot hatch should be lauded rather than picked fault with??

chrisp

We will just have to wait and see but I still reckon they wont sell many . VW have changed and IMHO lost that edge and fun factor from the original mark 1 and 2 golfs. The VR6 was just too front heavy and FWD, the 4motion didnt hit the spot and wasnt an urban racer it was just too soft. The R32 needs to be very special indeed to tempt people to move to from the best of AWD cars.

Chins

Nice to see so many people appreciating the R32

Not sure about them struggling to shift them. If you pop down to my two local dealers, they have sold their allocation for the entire run of R32's. Most dealers will not accept any more deposits. There are still a few that have got spaces/ havnt promoted the R32. Remember 85% of dealers have not even delivered one yet.

The way I read the R32 is that VW have realised that they have lost the sporting edge that they once had. The R brand is to go accross a number of other models in the range. Sure they might not get it right, or ever recreate the original GTI, but given the constraints of todays buyer I think its a good shot.

Yes I have got one coming in the next few weeks and it did win the showroom battle vs the new new bug eye. But I'm getting on in years, like my V6's, comfy leather etc.

No doubt it will be gone come spring though

Jonathan

GaryC

VW as a brand are not aiming for a pure sporting car, they are going for the Mercedes aproach - quick, but the luxury side of the market. They have Audi to be the more sporting marque and Seat to be the real sporting brand. Doesn't mean they won't make quick, performance orientated cars, but just because they don't make an 'urban racer' doesn't mean they are bad cars.

Nowadays, you just can't drive evan a luke-warm performance car to anywhere close to it's potential 90% of the time, so sensible manufacturers are making performance cars that suit the conditions for the majority of the cars' use - meaning people can go for a sporting, top model car that will be far more suitable, comfortable, reliable and well specc'd to match the 90% of the time that your car is just getting you from A to B?......then, in the ideal world, get a second, real performance car for the 10% of the time when you can 'drive it'

3times

went into my local VAG dealer yeaterday to get some bumph on the R32. He gave me a brochure and then went onto say that if I ordered one now I would get it in Jan 2004 as they have already sold their allocation for next year. The allocation was '2'. He then said that all dealers have the same allocation.

If true, this may be an attempt to residuals high but its a ridiculous way to try to tempt people away from other marques. I pointed this out saying that anyone looking at an R32 would probably go for a WRX, RSF, Civic R if they could not get one. He agreed with me so I asked if this as just a way to get rid of a few bodyshells (chassis is from Audi TT) before they brought out a new model. He said no but was not very convincing.

Took the brochure anyway, showed the wife who said 'how plain does that look, just like every other Golf'. She also thinks the same about the RS Focus (looks like every other Focus, not Golf). She thinks I should stick with an Impreza as, even though not the best looking or built, they stand out a bit in a car park.

Just waiting to see a MY03 in the flesh.

chrisp

So each dealer getting 2 a year is a great way to keep residuals but a terrible way to gain market share . Suppose it attracts potential punters in to sell them something else.

GaryC

Must be a lot of dealers to sap up the 2000 cars that are coming to the UK in 2003 at 2 each

Chins

i'm not sure its as high as 2000 cars. I was told it was about 1200. Initially they were going to limit it to 500. Each dealer Ive spoken to expects to get between 4&8 cars depending on their size.

Jonathan

Toerag

Clarkson summed it up when he told us on topgear that the R32 weighs TWICE AS MUCH as a Mk1 GTi. There's going to be a lot of bent R32's driven by mercedes owners wive's if it snows this year!

swisskenny

Just to let you know the R32 is selling very well. For example if you ordrer now you will only be delivered in june/july.I put my order in last november and delivery is for march only. I don't know how many R32's UK is getting but I know that France only got 200 and are all sold.
Plus there should be an R32 with this new DSG gearbox available beginning of this year.

chrisp

Thats the point build only as many as you think you can sell and if you keep a waiting list then it also keep residuals high. Only having a few doesnt make the car any better just more of a pain and expensive if you want to jump the queue. If they are that good why not make 5,000, as surely they would be cheaper due to retooling costs spread ?

If you look at impreza special editions they all sold well, look at how much 22b were swapping hands for. IMHO the only exception was the P1 which was a 2-3K over priced and they made too many, should have built 300 and they would have sold them all in a day even at the normal price.


[Edited by chrisp - 1/2/2003 4:08:51 PM]

chrisp

LOL think I will just have to learn to live with 0-60 in 4 seconds, awesome handling and rallying pedigree.

Of course I agree in some ways as the next upgrade will probably be german ............ a 996 .

The golf had its day when it reached the mark 3 it simply became a normal family car and thats where it stays in my mind.

scoob_dood

I would say that the Porsche 911 has gone a similar route to the VW Golf (and many other cars) and all for the same reason ...

They are in general, bigger, heavier, better built, and more powerful ...

Subaru/Mistubishi have done similar with their latest generation of WRC bred road cars in the Evo 7 & MY02/03

Unless you plan to take your car on the track, and lets face it, most don't (though many talk about it!) cars need to be softer, more refined for the (English) roads (which could do with their own refining!) - and that's where cars in general seem to be headed ...

I would love an STi RA V-Limited/Evo 6 RSX etc. but unless I'm heading to the track every other weekend, they're going to be poor daily drivers/motorway cars in comparison to the R32/S3/911

Again, we have a comparison which is unlikely to find much common ground!

- JOn

golfliam

"Clarkson summed it up when he told us on topgear that the R32 weighs TWICE AS MUCH as a Mk1 GTi. There's going to be a lot of bent R32's driven by mercedes owners wive's if it snows this year"

Didn't he also say he would have the R32 over the focus or the WRX.....

^Qwerty^

VW dealer in Leeds had 7 orders in mid December at a £1k deposit. They currently have an allocation of 2 cars IIRC. I was told that they get so many R32's for however many *other* Golf's they sell, so they actually have a quota of 2.5

I'd love one, but they will be long gone by the time the lease on my Scoob is up.