rich uk300

[Edited by rich uk300 - 12/10/2002 11:56:21 PM]

Diesel

You guys clearly read a lot more than me - but through rose tinted glasses I am not bonkers in saying its always an engineering compromise to put wedges of torque through the front wheel and then try and steer!

LOL @ Chrisp's 'split the diff' and thanks to Robski for making me feel I haven't lost the plot you bu@@ers

You're welcome to think the dynamics of the souped up shopping trolley thing are awsome (esp when you have to change the front tyres every 5000 miles )

D

EvilBevel

Agreed. I still have a T5, and it is indeed no joy burning all that Pirelli rubber at every traffic light when I'm not careful for a second - concentrating at my pipe for instance .

But you have to admit they seem to get better and better at making FWD "work", examples would be the Integra or the Civic.

And possibly now the RS, why not.

jonmorris

The ECU restricts the power in the first two gears to prevent major problems (such as destroying the tyres in a week).

LG John

It always comes back the the 'track' The scooby and to a less degree the RS are NOT track cars. An elise hardly qualifies as a track car but at least its close! I still fully believe that a good driver could set a better time round a track in a lowly 120hp VTS than a 215bhp WRX...BUT....chuck some real roads at them and the Saxo wouldn't have a hope!! The RS will obviouly do a lot better in the rear world than a VTS/172/etc would do but on the types of roads (muddy, c-class farm type roads) I was driving the other day an RS, or any FWD car for that matter, wouldn't have a hope. That's why I bought the scoob - cause those are the roads I love to drive! Why can't people realise these cars were designed to a completely different brief and that one will be better at somethings than the other and vice versa?

Jon1T

SB - on what facts do you base these assumptions?

How do you know the RS Focus is not a track car? That's where it was developed - at the 'Ring.

LG John

If it was a track car would it have 5 seats, electrics, air-conditioning (I'm assuming it has that), etc. The point of a true track car IMO is to go as fast as you possibly can so these creature comforts are irrelevant. The elise, caterhams, etc are IMO road legal track cars - less so the elise - and they prove it when they go on track and p1ss all over RS's and scooby's.

Besides the 'ring is a public road.....so I'm told

co55ie

Saxo boy I think you may well find that the RS is a more capable track car than the Elise. It is certainly able to lap a circuit quicker than the little lotus.

LG John

Maybe a track with lots of straights but the day a standard RS (like for like driver) beats a standard elise round a twisty track is the day I'll go buy and eat my cap

GINGA

Fwd does work(in the dry anyway)look at what happened when the wrc cars went up against the (less powerful but lighter)fwd kit cars in the tarmac rallies on real roads,the wrc boys were complaining they couldn't beat the kit cars and only had a chance if it rained!! but it does say that 4wd will make a better allround road car as weather conditions aren't such a problem for the 4wd car as they are for the fwd car.

jonmorris

Saxo Boy, why don't you do a proper test rather than make guesses all the time.

Take a Focus, WRX and a Saxo out on a track - in wet and dry - then report back.

It's getting a bit silly now! And as for muddy C-Class roads, I can't see most people driving on these on a regular basis. That is unless you live out in the sticks miles from any A-roads and motorways. (Yes, I am generalising here but I think you see my point).

LG John

And just how do you propose I manage that Walk into three dealers and ask to trackdrive their cars I'm a member of the public not a motoring journalist!! I'm saying no more on the subject as your quite right I can't be sure about anything but when/if I play with a focus RS, as always () I'll let you all know - irrespective of the result

I find fast a-b road driving boring because more often that not they are busy with sunday drivers, etc. The muddy c-class roads see about 1-2 cars a day and are great fun to drive so I bought the scooby in the knowledge that it would tootle along the motorway most of the time but that I'd seek out these roads when I get the chance. I haven't regretted it

jonmorris

My point is you should stop guessing and saying things with "maybe" all over the place!

While a good driver in a bad car can quite possibly beat a bad driver in a good car, I'm not sure how you come to believe a Saxo could beat a Focus (or WRX) as it would neither be faster on the straights, or the bends. This is of course also a presumption.

The Focus also has awesome brakes, so you can keep at speed right until the last second. This is why it will give people a good run for their money - although anyone trying to demonstrate this on a public road should be shot.

LG John

0-60 only!! Look at the 60-100 time for a standard elise and RS A VTS wouldn't have a hope in hell against an RS, I never said that! I've taken stock of my life co55ie...I still think I'll enjoy watching the RS spin through a hedge trying to keep up on nice muddy twisties

Oh, and before you continue to pick on me there are only about 3 people on this board that have actually driven an RS so I think you'll find that you and me both are speculating a little!

marcmann

I've been told by some of the development engineers who worked on this engine (in strict confidence of course!) that you'll be lucky to get this engine to pass 40,000 miles without a complete rebuild. The stock 2.0 engine is **** and all they did was stick a large turbo onto what is basically a weak engine.

Good luck to anybody who buys it!



Marc

Scotsman

iTrader: (3)

ROFLMAO

This just gets better and better ....

LG John

Joh, the VTS's handling is far inferior to a standard WRX, however, due to its light weight and relatively wide/low profile tires it can 'grip' harder. In order to apply this grip it requires smooth and predictable road surfaces which a track has and a 'real road' hasn't. For this reason I believe a VTS would carry more speed through the corners and make up for the lack of power in the straights, not that that is much anyway compared to a standard WRX. As I said, on the 'Impreza's' roads out in the country the Saxo's inability to repose to potholes, ruts, mud, leaves, dodgy camber changed, sudden bumps and dips would ensure its extra grip wouldn't could for crap and it would get left behind. The RS would do much better of course but I still think any FWD will get its *** handed to it by a properly driven equivelant 4WD.

GaryC

Reality check - In the £20k HATCH BACK sector it might be up with the best - but put it up against a proper £20k performance car, and the RS would be a dot in the rear view mirror within seconds

My (mere) £13k performance car would hammer the RS in every area except shopping carrying ability

Carlos The Jackel

Having driven a few 4WD's (not owned) I cannot see all the fuss when cornering. As someone that drives Highland "C" roads very week i very very rarely get a muddy one - about once every 6 months - so thats one reason out. I dont do "stupid" take offs requiring 4WD for traction so I would like to be convinced of its merits. In the wet i dont push it too hard anyway as aquplaning is a 2WD or 4WD is the same - dangerous! 4WD costs more to run, more fuel, more tyres and more expensive parts. My next car will probably either be a Pre'00 Scoob Turbo of a Escort Cossie both 4WD (prices fall please)So i am genuinly interested!

jonmorris

I've driven the Focus RS and was nearly told off for going too slow round the corners! It did 105mph on a bend in the dry a couple of weeks before (with someone else driving) but I didn't quite have the ***** to try and put it to the test so I stuck to a more modest 85-90. This is still exceptionally fast to take a bend.

As for the comment on reliability, one of the development cars supplied by Ford last week had over 55,000 miles on the clock. As far as I'm aware if hadn't had a rebuild and was still driving sweetly.

Ford, like probably everyone else, do PROPER long term testing of the cars. No rolling road for days on end - this VERY car had to endure all weather conditions, being driven up a 6" kerb, instant driving (no warm up) and generally being treated like s**t. If it manages 55k with all that abuse, I can't see many major problems.

The Zetec/Duratec lump is quite hard wearing and it's not a standard Zetec-S with turbo, but a specially modified Duratec RS engine (built in South Wales for anyone who cars).

It's also amusing that both the FFOC and FocusRS.Net forums have real development engineers on there who talk loads about the Focus RS development. To be fair, some of them have a few comments about things that weren't done quite as they would have liked. Isn't all car development like that? They will learn from this and improve on their next car...

They even had a lecture at a university in Coventry not so long ago (as part of a recruitment drive) and explained how the development was carried out. So, this person of yours who wishes to remain anonymous either doesn't exist or was talking out of his a**e.

I don't care if people say "In my opinion, I prefer the Subaru" or whatever. Each to their own and all that. I don't appreciate people who make things up, get stats wrong, state rumours as facts and generally spout nonsense!

There, no I feel much better.

Jonathan

EvilBevel

Jonathan,

Did you find any more information on the wastegate - or, if my sources are right - lack of wastegate - on the RS.

I read something about the GT2560 LS turbo not using a classic wastegate, but a "recirc" valve, dumping excessive boost directly into the exhaust. I was a bit puzzled by that, and don't understand how that works.

Any links or more info ?

LG John

I don't believe the 40,000 miles thing for a second! The warranty would cover more miles than that would it not?

In the first few weeks of having the scooby and pre-tek and pre-bumpsteer I took it on holiday to a place called Achmelvich. The nearest village is Lochinver which is 3 miles of single track, very tight and up and down road away (lochinver is 36miles n-w of ullapool) I can close my eyes and see every turn of that road I know it that well. At night time (about 3am) the chances of meeting another car on that road are virtually zero and you can see their headlights coming anyway. I've thrashed the VTS up it previously and this year, having not had the scooby long (hence not really got to grips with its abilities) I thrashed the scooby up it. I had 4 passengers (we were thrashing with their consent) and they, like me, couldn't believe how quick the car was. It was faster on those roads than the VTS would be with just me driving. Now with bumpsteer, tek3 etc it would destroy any time that the saxo could set and indeed any FWD in my opinion. I really am happy to put my money where my mouth is on this one so if anyone with an RS fancies going up for a long weekend let me know

I'd hate to see what a rally driver could do on that road in a scoob

Anyone that doubts the scooby/4WD needs to get out in one with somebody that can drive it properly on these sorts of roads (I can't, so don't ask). The first time I was subjected to the 4WD thing by an Impreza owner that knew what he was doing I left in no doubt at all the the way the 4WD's only real advantage (traction) was being used there is no way a FWD could keep up.

For the record, any twisty that you can get into 4th gear on isn't twisty enough IMO

Andy Mid.

some facts and figures....


Autocar at the Goodwood track...

1:28.60 Lamborghini Murcielago
1:30.31 Porsche 996 C2
1:30.60 Mercedes SL55 AMG
1:30.88 Ferrari 575M F1
1:31.50 TVR Tamora
1:31.85 Honda NSX
1:33.89 Ford Focus RS
1:34.17 Porsche Boxter
1:35.73 Lotus Elise 111S
1:35.82 Subaru STi Prodrive
1:36.60 Alfa 156 GTA
1:37.14 Renault Clio Cup
1:38.13 Mini Cooper S

Sprint Chief

Hopefully we'll see a Focus RS on the sprint scene next year to see how well they go. I will, of course, only be too happy to report back!

Plenty of Elises and Exiges about on the sprint scene already, they got repeatedly dropped from class to class because they were too flippin' quick by half I don't know the full car spec but certainly one of the Exiges is quicker than pretty much any car-engined Caterham or Westfield (even SEights and cosworth powered motors), posts similar times to a big power 3 door Sierra Cosworth. Bike engined kit cars tend to be another matter though

chrisp

How fast is an RS then as people have seen in excess of 160mph in a P1 and STI using GPS on german autobahns ?

co55ie

Chrisp LOL Look at the above track times.
A FWD Ford whopping a top of the range Prodrive STi and just for good measure a Porsche Boxster.
2 seconds is a light year.
Bring on the 260bhp Mountune Conversion and lets play with some TVR,s and Ferrari's forget the boyracer Scoob/Nova brigade they aernt worth the bother.

chrisp

LOL as you didnt answer my question I guess its slower then

GINGA

While looking at the focus rs specs I noticed its running at 14psi to reach its 215bhp is this correct? as that seems a high boost level on a 2L engine for 215bhp? or is it a misprint?

chrisp

14 psi just under 1.0 bar and thats about what a WRX runs to get 215bhp, so sounds about right to me.

co55ie

It produces 1.2 bar at maximum boost what ever that is in PSI I don't know.

Undoubtedly Chrisp your car will be quicker in a straight line 15.5 being the official 0 - 100 for the RS but you would be left for dust in the bends.