chrisp

Maybe as I am a crap driver , but I do drive a lightweight Race Altered (Type RA version 6, basically Subaru answer to the lightweight EVO RS Sprint edition) import, specifically designed for group N spec rallying with a few trick bits on it .

davyboy

Chris, you must say that at least 5 times a day!

WE KNOW!

chrisp

From: Astra GSI to MR2 to WRX to Porsche 944 Turbo

Need to change my profile, saves on typing it . Havent mentioned it for at least a week and only when people ask about RAs .

LG John

Don't know but I have the ability to spot cars that get over hyped but end up being no where near as good on the road..........lets just say my spidey senses are tingling

GaryC

2% is hardly a 'whooping' Tyres and changes in ambient temperature can make more difference

No-one is doubting that the RS is a top Hot Hatch, and that on track it is probably the best 'out of the box' hot hatch, but who buys a £20k Hot Hatch for the track?? If you want a track car, half the money will buy twice the performance!

The RS is a compromise car (as is the STi, EVO, M3, Skyline, Boxter etc) but whereas most are road biased/track poor compromise cars, the RS is track biased but more compromised on road.

Jon1T

Gary - again back up your statements. How do you judge that the RS is a compromise car? Have you driven it on a track?

As far as I can see only myself and jon morris have driven an RS Focus and both of us have said what a good car it is to drive. Yet again all the armchair experts continue to speculate about how they know their scoobs/Saxos whatever would beat an RS, and RS's are sh*t etc etc. How do you know?

If you've driven the car fine, report back with your views saying it's sh*t, but I can't believe the utter b*llocks I'm reading on this thread...

Look, get over it guys, the RS is good. End of story. Drive it and then tell us different.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Jon,
I think the compromise here is that the Focus RS is good on the track (as the times suggest) but not as good in "real life" situations (or roads).
Even you have stated that it needs alot of concentration to keep this car on the road, now how many drivers do you know that will have that concentration? I bet there are not that many out there with the ability (cossie included) that would be able to drive this car and not feel tired of it after even a short journey over a "normal" british road.
And even you stated that you have to fight with the steering to keep it on your side of the road and that hitting any sort of bump mid corner pulls you across the center line which i thinks damn dangerous in any road car
IMHO this car will have a good following, unfortunately i also think that it will have alot of accidents/owners compared to other cars in its class as most owners may not like feeling tired after driving this car on the road over a more sedate car like the Honda Civic Type R.

Tony

Carlos The Jackel

Firstly if I had 20k i would NOT buy a Focus RS - But I don't understand the critics on here. Its a High peformance car that when giving it some you need to concentrate hard - so you don't in your Scoob? You sit back and smoke a cigar? I dont think so - the Focus RS may be more "on the limit" when driven hard but some people like that. Its a personal choice - its NOT a fault.

My FRST was very similar without the excellent handling 165bhp in a wee Fiesta with rock solid suspension, imagine the fight you have on a pot-holed rutted back road - and i loved it. Just too much rust for my liking

Simply the car might not be to your liking but that doesn't make it worse than what you own, just different!

Tiggs

good article linked above, the Goodwood track is VERY fast and so unless you spend most of your time on A roads at well over a 100mph its not very real life- theres only one tight bit on the whole track and no doubt the cars blasting out of that are not allways the cars that end up fastest round the track as a whole where stable high speed is needed (hence why i can beat all the times posted above on a bike which has one wheel drive and low grip but will sit at 150mph all day (and get there quick to))

T

jonmorris

I'm fully prepared for a "wild ride" should I ever decide to take the car at speed over really bumpy roads.

Fortunately I can't see myself driving that fast over ANY bad road surfaces. I was always careful in the Cossie because I value my alloy wheels and suspension.

Thus, the "problems" aren't significant for me as I have no intention of driving at the limit.

It does sound like some people on here wouldn't hesitate and in fact claim to do such things already. Good luck to em and all that...

GaryC

Note 'Compromise car' not Compromised car


A compromise car is a car that is a compromise between a track/raw performance car and an every day usable car - like the RS is, and like the Impreza/evo/skyline/M3 and pretty much every sports/performance car. You don't need to drive the RS (or any of the others) to know it is a 'compromise car'. As soon as a car has rear seats it is in some slight way compromised on track as it would be carrying extra weight. Most of us have to go for a compromise car as having an uncompromised track car would leave us needing a 'road car' (probably again a compromise car) to live with.

Having had a compromise car (Impreza) I decided I didn't just want a compromise car that was compromised on track and compromised on the road, so bought a pure (uncompromised) track car (which cost just £13k and within a lap on track will show an RS just how compromised it is as a track) and a relaxed, big engined motorway mile muncher as a commuting/workhorse car.

This is taking nothing away from the RS Focus - I haven't slagged it off (I think I said is it probably the best 'out of the box' Hot Hatch on track??) as you are quite right, I haven't driven it, but I don't need to drive it to know it will be majorly compromised as a track car compared with pure track cars etc no matter how much better it is than other 'compromise cars'.

LG John

I figured that would be the case

I'd like to state at this point that I do not have a beef with the RS focus. I fully believe it will be a fast, fun and very able car but I similarly don't believe I'd struggle to keep up with one (assuming driver of similar standard) in the twisties and I'd expect to beat one at Crail. Sure, I don't like ford cars in general and probably wouldn't buy one but I'm not saying the RS is bad, far from it. I just doubt its that good. Simply 200+bhp with a FWD (no matter how fancy your diff) is a compromise from day one. IMHO

Jon1T

Gary, apologies, I comitted the cardinal scoobynet sin of not reading the post properly. I've said 3 hail mary's and conducted a barefoot pilgrimage to cleanse myself.

The rest of my comments were aimed at everyone else who keeps going on about how Focus is sh*te compared to XYZ without having anything to back that statement up.

But anyway, I think we've exhausted this thread, so lets get back to abusing each other on another one.

That Jonathan Palmer, what is the world coming to....(continues for 21 pages)

Carlos The Jackel

!

jonmorris

Where are all these muddy, twisty, bumpy, B-roads that we all spend our entire lives driving on??!

If someone wants to race me out in the country on roads with blind bends, to test out how good either car handles on the "twisties" then I'll just pull over and drop back.

I'll probably see you later in a ditch somewhere.

co55ie

Saxoboy the RS is not in its element on High speed circuits as it isn't that quick in a straight line, so imagine what it would ao a tight circuit probably destroy the TVR aswell.
I doubt very much that your modified Scoob would get near to the RS on a track.
The RS is a performance car why do people criticize the fact that you actually have to drive the thing isnt that the point of the thing. If you want a daily shopper arm chair type car get a WRX or a 5 series or something,If you want a true fun performance car get the RS.
As has been repeatedly pointed out in Various tests the diff is only a problem if you can't drive.
Give credit were credit is due as a performance car the RS has the well and truly licked in every dept

GaryC

If you want a true fun HOT HATCH get the RS.
If you want a true fun performance car, get a true performance car unless you need it to carry the shopping/kids/stereo in which case get a true fun Hot Hatch

Poor grammer and nonsensical sentance aside, you keep missing the point. As a performance Hot Hatch the RS might have most other Hot Hatches 'licked in every dept' but once you step up to real, pure performance cars, the RS would get a spanking even worse than *your* monkey except for kiddy and shopping carrying

Andy Mid.

anyone else just get a bad case of deja vu ?

co55ie

LOL my grammar is atrocious you would not believe I got an O'level in english. I am going to blame it on the fact that I am sh1te at typing

[Edited by co55ie - 12/12/2002 7:43:48 PM]

Robertio

iTrader: (1)

Errr, am I in the minority around here? I do 90%+ of my miles driving on roads where it is possible to to 100mph+ I'm not saying I do those sort of speeds (it's far too windy in the westie at those figures) but that it is easily possible.
Roads with lots of tight corners are (in my experience) those with seriously restricted visibilty, in which case I'm driving slowly.

chrisp

Only wish you sold car insurnace I would save a fortune maybe group 5 or 6 rather than 20+ .

robski

Oh no robertio now youve done the "only drive as fast as you can be able to stop in" argument again

co55ie try to avoid twisting someones argument so far inside out that its converted a decent argument into a shameful waste fo bandwidth, we could all take a sentance out of context and try to demonstrate it as something else.
Ford have repeatedly failed in recent history to produce the goods, and thats the whole point.

Take the escort cossie god rest its cotton socks. The thing that makes me laugh more than anything is the fact that the ONLY bit anyone ever goes on about wasnt really FORD at all, the engine!

As far as the RS showing a scoob a clean pair of heels within what context?, I have had faster cars try it on and stuck with them, Ive had slower cars pull away due to having idiots at the wheel.

Track driving isnt real world driving, and bears little resemblance to anything other than blatting through a city centre that has fast dual type straights and slower roads and tight corners. So am I supposed to drive like this to show off my car?
Hmm maybe it does deserve the RS marque?

At the end of the day I dont want a FWD car again at the moment, I prefer the AWD ability, you wont get it with FWD its just impossible without making it AWD.

The focus RS doesnt rattle my cage. A) I dont like the focus to start with. B) have had enough FORDs in the family now to know that not a single one will be built properly IMHO. C) This is a Subaru website and I object to an unwashed rabble telling me that I am unable to accept the RS is a better car.

Well, its not. In your eyes its better in mine its not, so who cares?

Fastest car Ive ever been in? A mini. 2 litre pinto (steel race version) with a turbo off some old crappy montego thing I think it was. This was over 250bhp and in a stripped out!! mini. It took off like nothing I have ever seen, was truly a white knuckle ride and absolutely trashed an "alledgedly 450bhp" supra, and I mean trashed. Second fastest car was mikne rainbirds cossie (RIP). The mini doesnt make me want a mini, the cossie doesnt make me want a Sierra. So someone telling me a Focus is best and expecting me to agree makes me fall off my chair with laughter. Go and find some 14 year old kids you may just persuade them.

robski

Sprint Chief

I agree about Goodwood being a fast track - some nice bottle bends as well. But the nature of Goodwood is what surprised me by the results - the STi there should have been good for 150mph, compared to the top end of the RS of ?144mph? (I think), should have given the STi a clear advantage around a track like that.

The other strange things were the g-meter on top gear, where the Focus pulled 0.90 lateral g - good for a road car, but I'm sure we used to get over 1.0 g from a Suzuki Swift on wooden road rubber, and I would have thought the STi ought to be pretty much on that - then the 5th gear report that reckoned the Focus RS was barely any quicker than the Civic Type R around Anglesey, a tighter circuit that should see the RS shine with its trick transmission?

Basically none of these reports seem to make a great deal of sense to me, and all seem to conflict with each other. I do wonder whether Ford released a "breathed on" RS to the press to deliberately stir up media interest. It is quite easy to get a few seconds off the lap time of a car like the RS - up the boost a little, an extra 7 or 8 psi in the tyres, a few thousandths toe out at the front, a few degrees negative camber, spring and shock rates etc. etc. The reason I wonder this is that most of these mods would have the side effect of making the car less stable and difficult to drive on normal roads. I suspect the customer cars may be less quick around a track but better on the road.

This is all a load of speculation and IMHO of course, no hard facts to back it up (although it isn't without precedent - anyone remember the 150mph E-type Jaguar?). I hope we get an RS out at sprint meetings next year with a good driver in it, I would love to see how well the car goes compared to some of the Elises and Exiges.

chrisp

January 2003 EVO magazine COTY

12th Place out of 12 runners FOCUS RS

Looks like the bubble has burst .

robski

"Special" car for the press?

who mentioned TVR

alledgedly :P

robski

jonmorris

Oh my god, here we go again.. the "Ford specially modded the press cars" story.

I think the press would have twigged quite quickly if this was the case and wouldn't have hesitated to expose them.

We drove the development cars, so I'll have to wait and see how it compares to the "real" one I get in a fortnight.

Sprint Chief

It's okay Jon, you don't have to ask God, we know everything here

I did go to pains to point out that this was MHO and that many manufacturers do this, pointing out the E-type as a famous scam that actually worked very well, primarily because the car was a good one anyway. I was also pointing out that if the car did have some of the mods I had suggested it would be significantly better in the real world than a lot of people here give credit for.

BTW Since the track tests were done before the car was released to the public, I'd love to know exactly how the journo's would know what a standard one was supposed to look like And I hardly think Focus RS has 15 thou front toe out is going to make an earth shattering story even if you could spot it without a gauge...

LG John

Well, I'm giving in and letting this thread run. I can't recall a race on the twisties in my life and it would probaby be dangerous as hell so I doubt I'd do it! That leaves 0-60 off lights and motorways and my car would deal with the RS no problem so I'm not worried. I'm off to figure out how to fund my next tank of SUL

jonmorris

Well once the argument gets to the point that Ford are being accused of modifying the press cars, I think it's time to bail out once and for all.

How do we know Subaru didn't do the same then? You could mod the Subaru far more easily then the "poor old" Focus couldn't you?

And as for Evo, has anyone actually read it? It doesn't slate the Focus (apart from the interior). Look at the cars above it, which aren't faster than the Focus or the STi (which is 11th!).

It wasn't looking at out and out performance or handling, which is why the Mini Cooper S features a lot higher up.

The journo also blames the handling on bumpy roads as torque steer, so I don't think it was the same bunch of people who originally drove the car before (just like Top Gear that slagged it off first and then rated it so highly two months later).

Evo slag off the Focus interior in general, so clearly the reviewer doesn't like the Focus interior at all. Fair enough, but it kinda makes his points rather irrelevant as Ford aren't going to redesign the entire dash for a 4500 production run, especially with the Mk2 Focus less than a year away!

Sprint Chief

Hmm seem to have touched a nerve there! Please note at no point have I actually criticised the RS, other than pointing out that no matter how "controlled" the conditions are, track tests are rarely a fair and unbiassed way to compare cars, as there are just too many variables and it is too narrow a situation. Unless the scooby wins of course

I was actually making a point that the RS may be better on the road than people give credit for, but I guess that point was lost on the RS owners who must preciously defend the track time?

Mind you, the statement that 85mph is "exceptionally fast to take a bend" (ROFL) that can be taken at 105mph, I'm not sure we've quite got the hang of it anyway? Assuming the instructor was near the limit at 0.9g, you would be pulling a "staggering" 0.6g lateral at that speed, which you could probably do in Lada on wooden tyres (and I'm talking the original, not the Lotus version )!

The bottom line is, go out and try the cars, and buy the one you like. Then enjoy the car. It really ain't rocket science! But don't be surprised when the majority of scoobynetters choose the Subaru...