Trout, the way I understand it the Sti v's have a larger tmic than the std uk spec cars so my reasoning was that if I am going to have to get a new tmic I may as well get a fmic.
Or can I get a second hand Sti ic and bolt it straight on to the uk mounting structure.
thanks for your help,
Mike.

 

dont know how different the later version tmic is between jap and uk.

Suspect it isnt that different at all.

either way the version 5 is an improvement but not so much that its going to be chalk and cheese over what you have now.

Can you explain why it is necessary to get the fmic first if you are going to get them both eventually?

 

I have a P1 Intercooler on mine, I'd say it does make a difference, but then I would wouldn't I?

 

Adam, I don't want both a TMIC & a FMIC.
My thought process for the mods went as follows :-
1. I've had the car for a year now and I've grown accustomed to the power so I want more!!!!
2. As mine is producing 240 bhp & the Sti V's (or P1's) produce 280 bhp I inquired as to what are the main differences & got the answers:- A:bigger turbo, B: larger intercooler. there are other differences but the turbo & intercooler make the most difference.
3. So I decided that I need to get a bigger turbo (plus re-map) & a bigger intercooler.
4. As I need to get an intercooler I may as well get a FMIC rather than a TMIC.

I hope this clarifies my requirments.
Mike.

 

Mike,

I agree with that, and understand, what I dont understand is why is it so important for you to get the fmic before the turbo?

what age is your uk car?

I am not suggesting for a second that you buy an uprated tmic ever. Only that I dont think the difference between the tmic on the P1 and yours is significant enough that you should assume it is responsible for the power increase.

You can very easily get over 300bhp with a big turbo and a remap on your intercooler. I know because I did it with mine.

I think you will actually find the main difference between the Uk cars and the stis is actually the standard map they run.

Depending on the age of your car too (assuming pre 99) you will have 380cc injectors. If this is the case, then you dont want to push it much beyond 300bhp anyway. If you do, you will need to change injectors and that WILL mean some kind of ecu mod.

 

No problem Adam, I just question every time someone states you "really need a remap" if you increase the airflow by any reasonable amount.
In this case, on a MY99 UK, the MAF and std ECU cope with 50%+ increase in airflow/power without needing a remap, the weak link is the fuel pump which fails to maintain the pressure differential across the injectors and hence the engine can run weak.

 

andy, no problem. I pick everyone else up when I think they are hanmding out dodgy advice. I have no complaints about people doing the same to me.

I must admit I did not know there was a 50% safety margin (on that my of car). Just out of interest, how did you find that out?

As regards to the fuel pump, I would recommend that anyone with a car out of warranty buy the uprated fuel pump, standard car or not.

I have heard of standard items being flow tested to give appaling results. For the peace of mind at the price it costs, I think it is worth doing regardless of state of tune.

 

I hope John Banks does not mind me quoting some numbers but his car was running 90% IDC at 1.25 bar on a hybrid turbo and uprated intercooler. At this point the MAF output was just starting to run off the standard scale.
John's car IS remapped but he has actually removed fuel from most of the power zones therefore an unmapped car would run even richer, possibly saturating the injectors at 100%. Personally I don't think this is a problem (my car runs at 100% from 5500rpm upwards)
It is only an estimate but I think John would agree he has picked up approx 50 bhp over the TD04l. This would put his power output at circa 340-350bhp.

 

andy,

if I recall correctly, you do have the uprated fuel pump, so I would tend to agree that you are more likely to "get away" with 100% idc.

without it, it is more questionable.

 

Agree re the uprated pump, I was shocked when I measured my standard fuel pressure 'on boost' I could have easily melted something well before reaching 300bhp
I now have a home made surge tank and a big Bosch (cosworth type) external fuel pump supplying the rails 380's have never worked so hard

 

surge tank made out of a jam jar?

David

 

On my my00 I'm running 95% IDC with a Prodrive ECU since freeing up the breathing/fitting bigger turbo - it's still pig rich.....

It's also interesting to note that since sorting the exhaust breathing fully (manifold/up-pipe), I haven't seen a single instance of knock correction (mind you, that means no advance as well as no retard ).

I would suggest that fitting a bigger turbo negates a lot of the benefits of fitting an FMIC, the charge temperature is dropped considerably by the simple act of not flogging the turbo to death at high revs (as is most defintely the case with the OE setup).

So in summary, I agree with the others - do the turbo and sort the breathing first. You maybe do get 25ps by fitting the FMIC with the td04, but only on rolling roads.....and you'll still be left for dead by the larger turbo'd car on the road....once they get past the bloody lag

Richard

 

lol,

a few posts ago, I was the only one saying this, surely there aren't people agreeing with me now?

 

Been reading this with interest as i have been considering a fmic for a while but didn't think i'd get a huge benefit with the standard ECU. However i have an early WRX (big turbo, really small intercooler), would this make a difference to your recommendations?

Tony.

 

Adam,

With regard to the impending rebuild of my STI 5 engine, is there a requirement to upgrade the fuel pump at the same time or do STI's have a better fuel pump as standard than a UK car.

Chris.

 

stis are supposed to iirc. but they are still crap!

i know this from personal experience of mine, as does pat.

I am convinced mine was infact the reason it never made the power it was supposed to, and why larger injectors did not solve the problem of running lean!

I would recommend the fuel pump to ANY impreza owner as the most sensible of first upgrades. It doesnt cost a lot, doesnt hurt anything, and gives you a safety margin once you do start toying.

If you want one of these, give mark aigin (r19ket) a call. He got me mine.

 

WR-MIKE

Pete Croney stated that the improvement with an STI V intercooler came from an improved core, and that mounting points on MY 98 UK are suitable. I do not know what the mounting point situation is on a MY 99 UK

He can source the parts if you want to go this route

Shiv I-club intercooler flow link ( posted on here before ), scroll down

http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=3b88649b2fc6ed857fbf316da87e18e6& threadid=142272&highlight=intercooler+shiv

 

WR-MIKE,

how about I do you an STI V TMIC - cosmetically damaged - but very functional at a very good price?

If you are interested email me rannoch1@hotmail.com

Trout

 

I am picking my car up from RC Developments today ( SAT27) with HKS FMIC and Power FC.
I will post my smiles later!!!
Adam, why you not mention RC?

 

Mike: I have carried out quite a few mods over the last 9mths on a STi ver 6 Wagon. I think they were done in a logical sequence and if I was to repeat the exercise I would do it in exactly the same order. My experience is specifically relevant to my vehicle and careful consideration to your spec would be needed to draw parallels.
What I also learned was that some mods and products represented little or no benefit.
1)Proven efficient de-cat exhaust and improved induction. This on its own made the biggest noticable difference.
2)Ported headers and modified up-pipe. This needs to be done properly and not just a lick over with a Black + Decker. Again noticable.
With other little bits and pieces I then had 316bhp repeatable on the particular R.R. I use. I do not have any views on what it may read elsewhere I use the R.R. for comparative purposes and to look at the relevant info from the curves.
3)At this point I knew I needed a re-map so fitted an APS FMIC in advance of a Link ECU. I can see no reason that a FMIC should cause any engine damage if fitted in isolation. I could feel benefits from the intercooler immediately and throttle body temps were typically ambient +3c in the cruise.(Previously +10/12c)Induction Temp was no longer an issue anywhere. The benefits were a smoothing out of the engine and there was NO increase in lag. There was no signifigant improved times for acceleration 3rd gear same piece of track exactly 1500 to7000rpm.
4)Link fitted and 550cc injectors. This made a fast car even faster.Injectors (were 440s) replaced in advance of hybrid turbo.
At the same time I should have fitted the up-rated fuel pump to save on a remap but it did not happen that way.

On the standard turbo (VF28) I now have several runs in the 340s bhp but the turbo is now the limitting factor and I am having difficulty deciding which one to go for.
Going this way I have the car fully sorted and with a remap will be able to extract the full potential from whatever turbo as soon as fitted. (which will hopefully be soon)
Happy to give you any more info I can. Good luck.

 

the fmic with the front mount wont damage the engine but a td04 with a fmic will be laggy and hence make the car feel very much slower.


why should I have mentioned rc?

 

A FMIC combined with a good map and ECU allowing the latter to make the most of and know for a fact the air is there and at an optimal temp.
I mention RC because they do all this kind of stuff and I presumed you knew that.

 

Harvey,

when you say that you have followed a logical sequence and would do the same again - I am slightly puzzed. The reason why is that all the things you have done are goodness - however you have not got to the end of the road yet - as you have not done the turbo.

On my own car I have done all the things that you have mentioned - including the turbo - and I would certainly laud doing breathing mods including porting before anything else. But you may have found that ECU, fuel pump and turbo would have given you 350bhp straight away.


A comment on RC Developments - any Scoob owners out there had good results from them - run against other cars tuned by different sources? Just interested

Trout

 

I dont understand why rc specifically.

There are loads of tuners who supply all these parts. why do rc get a special mention?

I am dubious about their power claims especially given the use of fuel and boost controllers which I do not believe is the way to do it. I do like their prices and service though. They supplied my fmic and headers.

I do see them as evo tuners though, not subaru experts.

 

Every Mod on my car has been done by them and touch wood has yet to give me any problems.
I think they are excellent and SAFE!!!!
I have heard of cars that have thrown in the towel using other tuners, but really I highly recommend them. RC Developments that is.
They know what they are doing Adam. Ask Cryptwalk. His mate (Scott) has had his Impreza tuned to close on 400 BHP. This is the result of a tuning company who aren't Subaru experts

[Edited by alanjack - 7/27/2002 10:28:54 PM]

[Edited by alanjack - 7/27/2002 10:30:24 PM]

 

Hi Trout,
You are right in that if I had wanted to go to 340bhp+ I could have done exhaust(full de-cat) big turbo, programmable chip (Uni-Chip) and an up-rated fuel pump. That is not how it happened though.
When I bought this car it was a step up from a WRX Wagon and I reasoned that I would buy it and not need to tinker/add power. A few weeks later and it already had full de-cat exhaust and pannel filter. I had the bug. Again!!!!!!!
I had the misfortune to pick up no.2 bore through my own stupidity and so a full rebuild included steel rods, forged pistons,up-rated oil pump and thicker head gasket in advance of a bigger turbo etc.
With every mod I have tried to identify the pluses and minuses,power or torque gains and whereabout in the rev range.
Having done all this over a 9mth period as time has permitted I am now going to fit a tubular exhaust in the next 10 days to see what effect that has. Then finally I am ready for the turbo but which one? I could put on a big turbo for big power figures on the rollers but that is not my objective. I want an ultra fast responsive road car that I will enjoy in the same way as I have enjoyed all my tinkering. Any thoughts?
The turbo I need now is not likely to be the turbo I would have chosen at the start if I was just going for 340+ bhp.
During my learning process two things have conspired against me to reduce the responsiveness I have at present.
1)By unfortunate circumstances I have 3.9 diffs in place of 4.444s which give really long legs which I like but 3000rpm is74mph in 5th so down shifts to storm up hills or over take very quickly are the norm.
2)The C/R was deliberately reduced at the re-build so I could ultimately run higher boost safely. This now means that when the engine is running naturally aspirated it is not as crisp as it was previously. If I was doing it again I would look for a compromise half way house.
What turbo? That is the question. It could really make the car but a wrong choice would be a disaster.
Sorry to rant on and hijack the thread.

 

alan,

not doubting them, just sayign they arent subaru specialists.


spent lots of time speaking with jenny and clive. Have been incredibly nice to me on many occasions, and I haev a lot of time for them. They work damn hard.

But as I said, I am dubious about their power claims!

I dont like the idea of tuning "stages".

I would also like to see your friends 400bhp type claims verified on a dyno, as rolling road figures mean **** all to me.

I dont want to take anything away from them. I would probably use them myself, but they are geographically unsuitable for my needs.

engines are essentially engines, and if you know what you are doing, you can get more power out of any car even if you dont specialise in it, which they will admit they dont. They dont like subaru engines, and I dont blame them as they are inherently weaker and tend to throw big ends for no known reason.

just because they may have made 400bhp out of a subaru engine doesnt make them special even though they dont specialise in the car.

Everyone has their favourites, and every person who trusts a company will come up with evidence for why they are better than the rest. That would make every company the best, which cdlearly is impossible.

I have never heard a bad thing said about rc, and as I said I like them, but the same goes fior loads of companies out there, but I still dont see why they merit a special mention when no other companies have been mentioned on this thread (unless I have forgotten! )

 

Alan, It would be nice to know the spec' of the 400bhp car, and it will be interesting to see your results, since not many cars are using the Power-FC.

Tuners gain respect, based on consistantly good results over a period of time. BRD are a good example of this.

RC may be great, but personally, I've not seen, or heard of one of their tuned Subaru's running at the track, or RR day. Seen some of the Evo's, and they seem to go ok.

Adam, you're SO full of SH*T.........

Mark.

 

If I am so full of **** then you must be in trouble, since you constantly remind you than everything I know is "borrowed" from you.

 

Adam,

"since you constantly remind you"

This is a good example of how easily you get confused

Pat, and I are happy to answer your questions, but we can't be responsible for how you disseminate the information

Anyway, you know what I was referring to

Mark.