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Yesterday I drove the car for ~300Km after the cooling mod installed.
Can't say the car feels any different, I think it's the same, but I drive it at..7/10 on winding country roads, with 36-37º air temp, it went well no issues or "weird things", It's hard to say the kit is doing any good or bad, but I have no intention on remiving it.
Feedback after ~1000Km done with it.
I can say without a doubt, the radiator fan does come on alot more times now, I don't even need to do a hard pull, just some quick driving without WOT, every time I park the car at the garage the fan is comming on.
IMO, this means that coolant is pulling alot more heat from the engine than before.
Feedback after ~1000Km done with it.
I can say without a doubt, the radiator fan does come on alot more times now, I don't even need to do a hard pull, just some quick driving without WOT, every time I park the car at the garage the fan is comming on.
IMO, this means that coolant is pulling alot more heat from the engine than before.
Other than that.. business as usual.
It doesn't tell you that.
The temperature sensor is mounted in the cross pipe on top of the engine, if that is running hotter (triggering the fans more often) than previously then you have raised the temperature at that part of the cooling system.
It could be the case that you have reduced the overall efficiency of the cooling system with the radiator not cooling the water as well, which leads to elevated water temperature at the temperature sensor.
It doesn't tell you that.
The temperature sensor is mounted in the cross pipe on top of the engine, if that is running hotter (triggering the fans more often) than previously then you have raised the temperature at that part of the cooling system.
It could be the case that you have reduced the overall efficiency of the cooling system with the radiator not cooling the water as well, which leads to elevated water temperature at the temperature sensor.
So is it a good mod or not John in your opinion .?
So is it a good mod or not John in your opinion .?
I haven't tested it myself so can't comment properly on what it does in practice.
What i can tell you is cooling system flow can be destroyed with what at first sight might look like a good idea.
If the crossover pipe was getting hotter, i'd be worried, that's not a good thing.
In the 20+ years I've been driving these things hard at all sorts of power levels I've never needed it.
What matters is that the radiator and water pump is working properly and has sufficient capacity for the power level, lots of these cars are getting old now and original rads will be suffering as a result.
If i bought anything over 10 years old, i'd replace the radiator, the OEM spec items are dirt cheap.
The other cockup people make is fitting low temperature thermostats, it's a backward step, your engine runs too cold most of the time, causing too rich a mixture, which is not good for engine life, fuel economy or power. A low temp thermostat does nothing to help temps on track as both the low and OEM spec items are fully open above 82 degrees. The only benefit found from one is if you tuned the engine around a 70 degrees target, which for most people is pointless.
If you want to do track work, make sure the rads good and concentrate on oil cooling, my own setup is using a high efficiency race spec radiator with a large inbuilt oil cooler, which handles 500BHP on track for as long as i need, unless it's stupid hot ambient's (35C+), i'd need a bigger water rad for higher ambient's on a long run, oil is fine.
What tends to cause different cylinder temps is the way the inlet plenum flows air to each cylinder, they don't flow the same, so some cylinders run leaner (and therefor hotter) than others. This is why when you map something like a Syvecs, you alter the ignition and fuel settings for each cylinder to correct this airflow difference. On ECU's that are not as tunable, you have to run a richer mixture on some of the cylinders than ideal for power generation to ensure the worst cylinder isn't run lean. We learnt all this 20 years ago in the early days of "chocolate 300BHP max" engines.
@johnfelstead,
thank you for your post, it's always great to have some insight from someone with experience, rather than an "internet mechanic" (like me ).
Looking at the internal diameter reducers I've used (~8mm, they are closer to 7 than 8), I don't believe it will flow a lot of water, but some will.
I do track my car and have done it with alot of heat, in Portugal we can get >40º air temp,
I don't have any extra oil cooling, I run a 10W60 (Millers, Shell or Liqui Molly - from how it sounds I'd rate Shell > Millers > Liqui Molly), is there any recomendation for oil cooling?
I'll keep updating this thread if any issue occurs.
I haven't tested it myself so can't comment properly on what it does in practice.
What i can tell you is cooling system flow can be destroyed with what at first sight might look like a good idea.
If the crossover pipe was getting hotter, i'd be worried, that's not a good thing.
In the 20+ years I've been driving these things hard at all sorts of power levels I've never needed it.
What matters is that the radiator and water pump is working properly and has sufficient capacity for the power level, lots of these cars are getting old now and original rads will be suffering as a result.
If i bought anything over 10 years old, i'd replace the radiator, the OEM spec items are dirt cheap.
The other cockup people make is fitting low temperature thermostats, it's a backward step, your engine runs too cold most of the time, causing too rich a mixture, which is not good for engine life, fuel economy or power. A low temp thermostat does nothing to help temps on track as both the low and OEM spec items are fully open above 82 degrees. The only benefit found from one is if you tuned the engine around a 70 degrees target, which for most people is pointless.
If you want to do track work, make sure the rads good and concentrate on oil cooling, my own setup is using a high efficiency race spec radiator with a large inbuilt oil cooler, which handles 500BHP on track for as long as i need, unless it's stupid hot ambient's (35C+), i'd need a bigger water rad for higher ambient's on a long run, oil is fine.
What tends to cause different cylinder temps is the way the inlet plenum flows air to each cylinder, they don't flow the same, so some cylinders run leaner (and therefor hotter) than others. This is why when you map something like a Syvecs, you alter the ignition and fuel settings for each cylinder to correct this airflow difference. On ECU's that are not as tunable, you have to run a richer mixture on some of the cylinders than ideal for power generation to ensure the worst cylinder isn't run lean. We learnt all this 20 years ago in the early days of "chocolate 300BHP max" engines.
Well thanks for the reply , i have probably read every thing you said on 22b as well as everyone else from your era . im glad your still showing the nippers a clean pair of heals and long may it continue
@johnfelstead,
thank you for your post, it's always great to have some insight from someone with experience, rather than an "internet mechanic" (like me ).
Looking at the internal diameter reducers I've used (~8mm, they are closer to 7 than 8), I don't believe it will flow a lot of water, but some will.
I do track my car and have done it with alot of heat, in Portugal we can get >40º air temp,
I don't have any extra oil cooling, I run a 10W60 (Millers, Shell or Liqui Molly - from how it sounds I'd rate Shell > Millers > Liqui Molly), is there any recomendation for oil cooling?
I'll keep updating this thread if any issue occurs.
Thank you!
Buy yourself some temperature strips from Raceparts and stick them all over the cooling system, then go do a run and then check them before the engine heat soaks when stationary, that will help to tell you what is going on.
Your oil temp will be very high if running in those ambient's with no oil cooler, as a good rule of thumb don't run over 120 degrees C, ideally you want it around 100-110 on track. Again stick temp strips on the oil filter, that tells you enough if you don't have a gauge.
Oil cooling is all about getting air through the core of the cooler, my setup has the oil cooler and water radiator as one unit, so the cooler gets full airflow. As these cars don't have very good flow on the outlet side of the coolers, you need fairly large coolers. Fit a temp gauge if you don't have one. Airflow out of the core is as important as into it. FMIC dont help as the airflow is worse compared to a less restricted entry for the water/oil cooling.
You see a lot of oil cooler installs that simply wont work because the airflow in/out is poor, so pay attention to that.
This is my setup, but mine retained the OEM fans. Oil cooler is on the right side.
It's worth bearing in mind as i saw this mentioned earlier, you don't need the aircon switched on to run both fans, they both work at different temps when aircon is off but both will come on if temps are high enough. When moving you don't need any fans, none of my racecars have any. I run with AC switched on when on track because when you go full throttle, the AC compressor switches off, so you lose no power with it switched on and its only running when you are off throttle braking, but keeping cool aids concentration.
Well thanks for the reply , i have probably read every thing you said on 22b as well as everyone else from your era . im glad your still showing the nippers a clean pair of heals and long may it continue
Thanks, i don't do much driving these days unfortunately, work gets in the way, but I've not forgotten how to drive just yet thankfully.
Buy yourself some temperature strips from Raceparts and stick them all over the cooling system, then go do a run and then check them before the engine heat soaks when stationary, that will help to tell you what is going on.
Your oil temp will be very high if running in those ambient's with no oil cooler, as a good rule of thumb don't run over 120 degrees C, ideally you want it around 100-110 on track. Again stick temp strips on the oil filter, that tells you enough if you don't have a gauge.
Oil cooling is all about getting air through the core of the cooler, my setup has the oil cooler and water radiator as one unit, so the cooler gets full airflow. As these cars don't have very good flow on the outlet side of the coolers, you need fairly large coolers. Fit a temp gauge if you don't have one. Airflow out of the core is as important as into it. FMIC dont help as the airflow is worse compared to a less restricted entry for the water/oil cooling.
You see a lot of oil cooler installs that simply wont work because the airflow in/out is poor, so pay attention to that.
This is my setup, but mine retained the OEM fans. Oil cooler is on the right side.
It's worth bearing in mind as i saw this mentioned earlier, you don't need the aircon switched on to run both fans, they both work at different temps when aircon is off but both will come on if temps are high enough. When moving you don't need any fans, none of my racecars have any. I run with AC switched on when on track because when you go full throttle, the AC compressor switches off, so you lose no power with it switched on and its only running when you are off throttle braking, but keeping cool aids concentration.
Zero. It uses the OEM rubber mounts top and bottom. You then just replace the OEM modine (oil/water cooler) with a sandwich plate takeoff as normal and run the pipes to the cooler.
The oil cooler takeoff has a thermostat at 85 degrees, so works fine in winter.
Some months later, 2 trackdays and a couple of thousand km on the mod, everyting still working fine.
Car is pulling very good for a car with basic mods and TD04 running 1.1 bar. The last trackday I managed to chase a GTR and a Subie with a VF35:
Let me clarify some things, especially to people who said that after the mod the fans come more often.
This "cooling" mod takes hot water from cylinder 4 and returns in directly to the water pump, without moving the water through the radiator first, meaning that all the hot water from cylinder 4 goes into the engine without being cooled!
So, don't be stupid and don't do this. If you want to cool your engine properly, invest in a bigger radiator, lower temp thermostat, a proper tune and meth injection.Don't get carried away in fancy words like "I did research to make the optimal flow" etc., since the plug that goes into the cylinder block is a Subaru OEM item with part NO. 21170AA020 and he just matched the exit with the same hose and T clamp size.
Last edited by Fable1521; 10 December 2020 at 09:57 AM.
A lower temp thermostat does not improve cooling. All it does is buy you a small amount of time before you heat soak if your cooling capacity is too small.
On the vast majority of cars its a very bad idea because the engine runs too cold on cruise, which adds more fuel, ruins fuel economy and can generate bore wash.
in all honesty after seeing his vid i was tempted to do it but a decent new rad will likely do a better job.
also yeah.. dont fit lower temp thermo for a fast road car.. nearly pointless.. cars like to run hot.. a cars temp of 80 to 90 deg is hot to us an our hands but compared to the heat the engine can develop its cool. I think ppl forget that. I had a LTT on my old 32gtr and it just could not warm up esp cold days. Stuck oem on and did oil cooler and that was much better modification 👍🏽
06 July 2020, 11:19 PM
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