And Rigoli's WRX uses Nitrous Formula Octane Booster

 

Harj,

you don't sell nitrous formula octane booster do you?

AndyMc,

I think you are wrong.

Ask bob rawle (346bhp) about how many cars he has modded with out them blowing up.

Then ask Mark aigin how long his car has run at well over 300bhp with no problems.

Then there is j.

Then Pat, who has only blown up one engine as a result of his tinkering where he openly admitted to playing in an area he knew little about, namely full throttle gear shifting. Aside from that he runs a safe 300bhp at the moment.

Oh, and danny fisher running 295 out of a 215bhp rated english car, with no fuelling or det problems!

Please explain these obvious anomolies!

Nito, just a few questions,

As discussed on another post how can you be sure that your engine will be fine running standard internals at 1.2ish bar. You said it was okay in the other thread using standard intercooler and turbo, but your turbo should me massively efficient at that boost, meaning your charge density will be much higher, then adding to that a brilliant front mount intercooler, aren't you even a touch concerned about in cylinder pressure being too high for standard english internals. 1.2 bar isnt much, but you will be flowing sooooo much charge, I would be worried.

I am not sure I would be happy running over 900 degrees egt. Nearly everyone I know, warns of danger even at this level, but then few people run your turbo.

You say you fuelling is fine at 1.18 bar, just out of interest how do you know?

Have you fitted a lambda link?

That kind of temperature on a normal set up is suggestive of running lean on boost, which is something to avoid. How can you be sure the jecs is giving you enough?

Perhaps it isn't? which might explain how you manage to produce 326bhp using 380 injectors when no one else can break 300.

Please dont consider this an attack, it is just that your car puzzles me.

I would be also very interested to see the dyno printout, as I am interested in the effects of the intercooler and turbo on the shape of the curves.

 

Adam funny enough I do

New Age Motorsport!

 

one thing that is bothering me regarding running standard ecu with boost controller, but i hope my quesstion is not too stupid.

i have noticed with the lambda link that after very little time 1-2mins on full boost the lambda sensor starts to heat up and reads lean. so how does the Jecs ecu deal with this ? isn't on a closed loop system ? so you can end up going leaner and leaner in situations as prolonged high boost run and on track ?


cheers

sam

 

Adam,

"As discussed on another post how can you be sure that your engine will be fine running standard internals at 1.2ish bar. You said it was okay in the other thread using standard intercooler and turbo, but your turbo should be massively efficient at that boost, meaning your charge density will be much higher, then adding to that a brilliant front mount intercooler, aren't you even a touch concerned about in cylinder pressure being too high for standard english internals. 1.2 bar isnt much, but you will be flowing sooooo much charge, I would be worried."

Inlet temperatures are also so much lower thanks to the larger turbine and fmic! Also it's 1.18bar I run not 1.2 As pat says, most Sti's use the same pistons anyway unless specifically ordered with forged ones and there are plenty running much higher boost than me. With regards to forged pistons, they may be stronger but it doesn't mean the car is running safer or that it won't det, all it means is that they'll last 45 seconds of det instead of 20!

"I am not sure I would be happy running over 900 degrees egt. Nearly everyone I know, warns of danger even at this level, but then few people run your turbo."

I don't see the relationship between my turbo and exhaust gas temps, running at 900 degrees is the same regardless of the turbo. I would be extremely surprised Adam if at 155mph your EGT wasn't over 900 deg!! Also it's pointless comparing EGT's which aren't mounted in the same place. The proper place to mount them should be in the Up-pipe before the turbo and not in the downpipe.

"You say your fuelling is fine at 1.18 bar, just out of interest how do you know?"

It's been checked on the rolling road with all the diagnostic equipment plugged in and probes up the exhaust pipe and fuelling was still rich all the way to the redline. I posted the air/fuel ratio after the run but can't remember exactly what it was now but about 12:1 - 12.5:1 from memory.

Have you fitted a lambda link?
No, I'm not that paranoid, I think I've got enough gauges Besides, that's the job of the EGT.

"That kind of temperature on a normal set up is suggestive of running lean on boost, which is something to avoid."

Adam, mine only goes over 900 deg at high speeds 130+, in Japan 930 degrees is considered the safe maximum on these so I'm not far out. Under normal acceleration I don't really top 800 degrees, in the higher gears this goes up to the 850-875 mark. Who says mine is leaning out under boost...on the rolling road and the select monitor it's rich rich rich.

How can you be sure the jecs is giving you enough?

I've been running the JECS for 56,000 miles and I've been running with the larger turbo for almost 10,000 miles. If it wasn't giving me enough I would have at least felt the ignition timing start retarding.

"Perhaps it isn't? which might explain how you manage to produce 326bhp using 380 injectors when no one else can break 300."

I think this is down to the decent hardware Adam. That 326bhp hasn't come cheap! The HKS/Garrett GT2835 roller needle bearing turbine is probably amongst the best on the market which is indicative of why it retails in the uk at £2115!!

"Please dont consider this an attack, it is just that your car puzzles me.

I would be also very interested to see the dyno printout, as I am interested in the effects of the intercooler and turbo on the shape of the curves."

All the dyno runs are on dyno.scoobynet.co.uk
Look under Nito it's currently at the top of the page and you'll see the runs pre fmic and turbo change and those after. Apart from these mods the car was running the same boost controller at the same boost and the de-cat exhaust and induction. Is it worth mentioning scoobs get quicker with miles which may be why mine performs quite well. You'll also see a comparison of torque and power curves between these two runs.

To summarise Adam, I've said it many times before..if my engine was going to blow, it would have happened a long long time ago. It's lasted a great deal of miles without any problems and I'm not in the least concerned. I think it's proved that boost controllers can be used safely, it's done the mileage to prove this and that's without relying on octane boosters. If it blows up then I will happily post the details on here, I'm not telling people to copy me, I'm simply posting the results I've had and from what I've seen over the last 56,000 miles I don't think it's necessary for me to stop using the jecs which is very well mannered and seems to be coping fine. I may experiment with larger injectors just for the sake of experimentation. Personally I don't know the ins and outs of mapping so it's not something I want to get involved with which is why I like to stick to the factors which I can control and the boost controller allows me to do this perfectly. There is a great deal of scaremongering on scoobynet and much of it is un-warranted. Just because mine isn't running an aftermarket ecu doesn't mean it's not running perfectly safe. The default map is a safe one to begin with and although it's not optimised to my setup it's general enough to cope with pretty much all everyday situations without making it so optimal that it means running under specific conditions. If I want to run normal 95 unleaded I can, I simply need to press the low boost button to revert to 0.95bar boost.

I don't see why my car should be considered a mystery or why it should be written off as about to go bang just because it's making decent hp figures. The power it's running is not unfeasible. There is no cast rule that the std injectors won't allow over 300bhp full stop. As has been said, there are many aussie scoobs running similar power with similar setups. I'm happy with the way it's running and I'm confident that if I were to change my injectors to 440cc ones and go for a remap that the torque could be brought pretty much in line with the bhp figures. At the moment torque is 275LBS/ft which compared to remapped cars is fairly low in proportion to the bhp it makes. I intend to do more miles with the existing setup first before I go making any further changes though if only to keep the sceptics at bay

rgds
Nito

 

I have a customer with a 22B, which has been the recipient of 13 grands worth of mechanical work by Prodrive. He has the invoices and dyno sheets from Prodrive as proof, as no-one ever believes him.

The output - 480Bhp!! Confirmed by the dyno sheets from Prodrive.

Car is so ferocious though that it is not the kind of thing you want to drive for more than half an hour or so.

Cheers
Kurt

 

I wasn't aware Prodrive did these kind of mods for people, cool.

480 bhp for £13K? That seems quite a good deal to me (prodviding the power and cost figures are accurate). I suspect a few select people on here have spent that and more for no where near as much power.

Simon

 

Kurt.
I keep hearing about this car. As you obviously know him, why not get him along to a meet. I think most people would love to see what a 480bhp Scooby engine looks like.
That must be one of the highest powered Scoobs in the world, not bad for £13k .
If he's got these sheets, ask if you can borrow them and scan them in. We'll all believe him then, whoever he is.
Someone at Prodrive must know of the car?

Stef.

 

Hmm I think I would be prepared to spend 13K on the BSRT 22B if it produced that type of power

Kurt I would love to see this car, not interested in the spec sheet but just feeling how it pulls would be enough.

 

thanks R. that explains things.


Nito
i really don't think anybody doubts or questions your figures at all. i am for one very happy for you, also it shows that you can get very good power levels out of the UK internals if you addressed issues like inlet temperatures properly.

couple of years back no one in the uk seemed to now how to tune the subaru engine like they did the cossie engine. ie for the cossie engine there was a common progression of mods to give you stage1,2 and so on. i think now thanks to this BBS he have almost found a pathway for mods as more and more people start to experiment. so next for me is the FMIC and hopefully i will be able to break the 300bhp barrier

the question is what will people do after that ? sti 3 cams maybe


sam

 

Nito,

I not underestimating your cars ability - I am questioning how much retardation you are getting (and can feel) - the Jecs can retard in very small increments and so you may well be getting retardation all the time and not realise it.

With a big retardation event, you may well feel it, but then you may go beyond the limit of the JECS map.

I remain impressed that the modifications that you describe, which are undoubtedly effective, do not take the JECS off the base map and therefore beyond its abilities. These mods will give you a denser charge, good cooling and high gas flow - all of which will demand more fuel than the original map was design for.

Put it another way, with a Motec or other high quality mapping capability you may well unleash significantly more power.

A final comment - with regard to RR results, they only stand as a specific, local comparitor - you can only compare the output of your car the other cars on the same rolling road, on the same day. So, most powerful UK car, on the day, at PE would be a more accurate way of stating your very impressive claim.

As to your comments regarding PE making Scoobs look typically more powerful, it's interesting that PS tend to make Scoobs look less powerful, and that cars suchs as Evo VIs and GTRs are pretty much on the manufacturers spec! Remarkable isn't it

R

 

Dear Kurt I would love to actually appreciate what you describe as a reality rather than a figment of imagination.

I have spent 2 years talking to people at Prodrive all the way up to David Richards on 2 occasions as well as their old boy Nick Grist and they have not been able to help reserect my 22B post Power Engineering remap.

To say I will be jealous once your story is proved will be an understatement!

 

There is much talk here of boost levels and power.

Hiking up boost alone will give you little but a broken engine. At the significantly higher boost levels you will need to remap the fuel - and typically run rich to quell detonation - the Subaru power curve is VERY sensitive to running rich.

I am impressed but remain puzzled at to Nitos figures with a standard ECU. I would not deny the figures, but as they say magic is merely a phenonemon that is as yet not understood by the recipient.

I am also very impressed that Nito can 'feel' the ignition being retarded - it may of course be that I am not sensitive to these things, but I can watch my car retard the ignition - but cannot feel it. I can even relate to a power run at Powerstation where the ignition was retarded a three degress, and this only caused the very slightest kink in the power curve - maybe 5 bhp - although this may an artefact of running on the RR.

My personal experience would suggest that PE are consistent as Stef says, but accurate - we would need a benchdyno'ed car to really calibrate this.

A couple of final comments - Sam, on boost the JECS runs in open loop mode - the closed loop mode is to maintain economy and catalyst health at cruise and non-boost activity.

Oh, and in 20,000 miles of running various levels of high boost and other tuning variations my car has not blown up and is subjectively and objectively much quicker than it was as standard.

R

 

Rannoch,

My car hasn't merely had a boost hike, it's running in conjunction with a larger turbo, fmic and all the other bits.

With regards to feeling retardation. I have felt this once and it is VERY noticeable. It happened on a Clang and Ball when the car slowed significantly yet boost was still at normal levels. I slowed immediately and dropped the boost down and gradually the power came back. I'm not surprised at getting det since it was a colkd morning and I was getting boost peaks of upto 1.5bar since the combination of sub zero temps and the type of driving was pretty intense plus I wasn't using octane booster and I had just switched brands of unleaded. I'm glad the jecs ecu was doing it's job and it had definately gone to max retardation. Believe me you can feel this. Within 20 miles/mins it was almost back to normal.

Everyone seems to be trying hard not to believe these figures and question them at every opportunity so I'll leave you all with this thought, "Most powerful uk car to date on PE rollers and about the third/fourth most powerful impreza on the dyno page and 56,000 miles on original engine with no ecu mods!!" Also no messing about with octane boosters to achieve this . I attribute most of this increase to the hks turbine and fmic.

Nito