hodgy0_2

I think we are simply seeing people get to the 7th stage in the 7 stages of denial

1. it wont happen (what Brexiteers call project fear)
2. it is not happening (what sane people called project reality)
3. it maybe happening
4. it is happening - but not because of Brexit
5. it is happening because of Brexit but things would be worse if we stayed
6. I don't care "sovereignty" is worth the pain a suffering (to someone else - not me)
7. we won you lost

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

I think the last stage is simply because Brexiteers are fed up of the constant whinging coming from the Remoan camp.

Martin2005

Says a potential world champion whinger

hodgy0_2

yes, its the stunning lack of self awareness that is genuinely so amusing

Tidgy

Are we still all going on about this?

noticed how the interest rate change has affected the pound more than anything else? also add in figures yet again are better than predicted? again.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Glad to be of service.

the difference, which you patently cannot see, is that I know I moan about stuff, (and usually quite rightly), but you two are so unaware, it begs our belief.

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

Earthquakes...hurricanes...AGW......

Bloody Brexit!

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Funnily enough, on FB today, someone was blaming Trump for both earthquakes and both hurricanes....

Only in the USA....:rolleyes

Petem95

Yeah that really is what it's like with these liberal snowflakes! It's time they came out of their safe space and into the real world.

On a more serious note I do find it concerning that there are so many different opposing groups and opposing views in Western countries now, it's like they've become real melting pots with so much hatred on both sides. I don't remember things ever being like this before.

dpb

This is undoubtedly the result of hard of thinking people falling for populist "leaders"

Seriously, what else would you actually expect to happen !

Petem95

But it's not, people are voting for populist leaders because of the failure of the current status quo.

Wealth inequality is probably the main issue and this has grown massively since the 1970's, but has accelerated again recently. This is in a big part down to globalisation. Lower skilled people, and the lower and lower middle classes are in a situation where there is always someone who can do their job for less, be this down to immigration or outsourcing. As a result they're left behind, increasingly disillusioned and feel like they can't achieve what they want (this is also resulting in an opioid epidemic in the US)



At the other end of the scale globalisation benefits the wealthy and big corporations. Being able to always get people who can do the job for less wages, or export work to places with cheap overheads due to no workers rights etc means bigger profits, and they're making a ton of money. People with high end skills - upper middle class, are also benefiting as their skills/jobs aren't yet being threatened by masses of people who can do the work for less, but this will come too - and they too will then change their opinions.

Currently the big corporations and MSM are pumping out the liberal/globalist narrative, and unfortunately a lot of people are lapping this up, and not looking at the bigger picture. But they will.

Martin2005

What are you advocating here? Communism?

Petem95

So increasing wealth inequality gets the thumbs up from you then?

Martin2005

Obviously not, but I'm intrigued by what alternatives you have to offer. Or don't you have any?

Petem95

I'm not claiming to have the answers, I'm merely responding to dpd's comment regards to the rise of populist parties.

If we want to maintain a good standard of living in Western countries, then less globalisation is going to be needed. We need balanced imports and exports, you cannot plug the gap with increasing debt forever. Mass unskilled immigration will need to be replaced by a system to attract only skilled migrants who are required. Manufacturing will need to be done on-shore more, which drives up costs obviously as you need to pay higher wages and have better conditions for workers.

There is no easy answer, and at the end of the day the whole capitalist system really isn't sustainable as it relies on constant growth and requires vast amounts of resources.

What would your solution be?

Martin2005

Economic nationalism will never work. It's an attractive short term proposition, but probably disastrous in the long run.

Despite the call for reducing low skilled migrant workers, I'm yet to hear an alternative. How on earth with an aging population does an economy like our function without people doing low skilled jobs? The indigenous population doesn't have the will, or inclination to do a lot of these jobs, and even if they did there simply isn't the numbers needed.

There isn't an easy solution, there is simply long term hard yards. Education, investment and imagination.

dpb

We produce plenty of wind here ..

I don't think its possible for western countries occupants standard living to to be maintained, at the expense everywhere else ( Shortly to be our only market )

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Had a chat with my best mate the other day... just a bit of background on him... privately educated from quite a wealthy background.

His view is that we'll be much better off post brexit, all the currency issues right now are down to speculators... which I agree with, but his big thing is that the Euro will eventually be at 2.5/3 to the pound... in his words ' it's just a case of when it will happen' but the Euro zone is on the verge of collapse... which is something else I agree with.

Thoughts...

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Statements like this are born of exactly the same fallacy as PeteM95's post #1601 (and shared also by virtually every one of the Brexit and Trump voters he claims to speak for), namely that economic growth is somehow a zero-sum game, and that one group of people can only ever get richer at the expense of another. That's complete and utter tosh and always has been, although never more so today than before.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

In other words, just the type who's very unlikely to feel any significant pain from Brexit, even if it does turn out to be a complete disaster

When people first started making those predictions a year or two ago, it was more or less universally accepted that such a collapse would be prefaced by a wave of election victories by the alt-right and their ilk across much of the EU. Since the latter has now failed to materialize, you have to doubt if the whole Euro collapse scenario is in reality any more likely.

dpb

Well this is the scenario the major brexiteers here voted for as well

mrtheedge2u2

Why would a strong Euro v Pound be a disaster? Pound and Euro are very strong against the Mexican peso but that does not mean the Pound will collapse soon. Means buying British stuff will be cheap for EU citizens....

mrtheedge2u2

Well, i accept that a few countries will be looking at brexit as a litmus test to see how welll Britain does. That does not give the EU the enthusiasm to play nice. Basically, the EU has to ensure Britain is not a run-away success.

BMWhere?

Nail ... Head!

Petem95 has raised some interesting and correct points above and that's exactly why the Jacob Rees Mogg, Boris Johnson and other right wing conservatives want Brexit.

Ultimately, the EU hinders the UK following the US economic model of pure capitalism which allows the rich to get richer and nobody cares about the poor. Most of the other EU members are much more socially sympathetic; Angela Merkels CDU are the political equivalent to the Conservatives in the UK placed on the right of German politics, yet her policies tend more towards Jeremy Corbyns Labour in the UK.

When asked the question what Laws from the EU are a real problem for the UK, all the Brexiteers can do is make a joke about bendy bananas that isn't even true! Yet there are laws from the EU that the hard right conservatives who wanted Brexit and the ultra-rich business leaders with no social responsibility can't wait to get rid off! That's those pesky employee rights! They want to make it easier to sack employees, they want longer working hours, they want less holidays and all the other benefits that make people more expensive to employ. Then they want to be able to outsource more to cheaper countries and trade deals with China or India are the perfect way to do that!

The net result is that Brexit will benefit the super rich and enabled them to get richer by driving down the UK wage bill and making the average person poorer!

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

This collapsing Eurozone that I hear so much about...
Is it the one with the GDP that grew at double the rate of the UK GDP in the second quarter of 2017?
Or is it some other one?

SWS
______________________________________
Assistant Deputy Secretary to the Sub-Lieutenant of the 2nd Vice-Presidency of
Continuity Remain

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

Totally agree, that's why the Murdoch press, Dyson and the likes are so eager for Brexit.

Petem95

It's the same one who are still injecting almost $100 billion per month in liquidy, and now have the biggest central bank balance sheet of any central bank in history yes.



These are crisis measures. It's like saying "The patient is doing great now yeah... just don't turn off that lifesupport machine, or he'll die".

Looking at 'eurozone' GDP also hides he fact that the growth is totally lopsided between North and South.

Countries like Germany, who are benefiting from using a currency that is much weaker than the Deutschmark, would be (so makes their exports more competitive) are doing well. The Southern European countries like Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal are strugging with a currency which is stronger than their national currencies would be, so you've got stagnant economies, huge unemployment, increasing poverty rates. Greeces economy is far smaller that it was back in 2000, Italy's has barely grown.

This situation just isn't sustainable in the long run, but the Guardian will still print rubbish overlooking these facts, and sadly some people lap it up.

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

No countries are looking to see how the UK gets on with a view to doing the same. Countries in the EU and around the world are just gasping with astonishment at how we could still be continuing with this foolishness.

Not even Greece, supposedly the victim of EU bullying, abuse and imposed austerity, is looking towards the door.

The EU is asking Britain to say a) how it will deal with EU citizens living in Britain, b) specify how the North/South Irish border will work and c) settle its tab on the way out. It's not asking for anything else.

How is that ensuring Britain isn't a runaway success?

SWS
______________________________________
Assistant Deputy Secretary to the Sub-Lieutenant of the 2nd Vice-Presidency of
Continuity Remain

Tidgy

greece is a very bad example to use, the country would collapse financially if the EU stopped propping it up. So they have no choice but to stay.

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

The Eurozone came late to the quantitative easing party so is doing now exactly what Brown/Darling had to start doing 7 years ago. That's no different to what we did/still here .
The BoE injection £25 billion in the UK economy in the 3 months to Jan 2017 alone. Go compare.

Germany sells because they're really good at making high-value items very efficiently and can sell them at premium prices all round the world - not 'cos they're cheap.

I don't read the Guardian. I do my own research. It's my living.


SWS
______________________________________
Assistant Deputy Secretary to the Sub-Lieutenant of the 2nd Vice-Presidency of
Continuity Remoan