Originally Posted by hodgy0_2

Okay, yes we have literally 1000's of complex issues, the (thoughtful) politicians are beginning to realise that

I posited just one on this thread - the European Medical Agency, based in the Docklands, in part responsible for our dominance in the biotech industry (high skill high wage jobs) and makes inward investment from other countries like India attractive

Trade deals with other countries will inevitably require agreements on immigration - only the wilfully delusional would not accept that

We have NOT made a small step, sorry that is verging on the delusional too, why, well pretty much everyone is accepting this whole process will take 10 years

10 years on uncertainty - businesses will move to Europe, the banks/financial services are well underway to move whole operations to Paris/Frankfurt

Big corporations will simply move to cheap labour - the UK will not stop 40 years of neo liberal economic claptrap by shooting itself in the foot

David Davis, see through the jaunty smile and kindly old uncle demeanour and he sings from the same hymn-sheet as the rest of the lunatics in charge

There are lots of "small steps" approaches we could take, massive expansion of apprenticeship schemes for example

We could have spent the last 10 years of ultra cheap money for a massive UK wide infrastructure program to make a positive and proactive approach to rebalancing the UK's lopsided economy (regionally and in economic make up)

Instead of being forced to because the City will up stick and move to Europe

But no, its all the EU's fault and we voted to give the lunatics the keys to the asylum

It is going to be a interesting 10 odd years, winners and losers absolutely

The losers will by and large be the same losers as now, only worse - as we get poorer as a nation

Ps I have been posting on our low wage low aspiration zero hour contract flatlining social mobility for the last 8 years on this forum

So I have been aware of the problem before its become fashionable - but leaving the EU is a really bad idea

Just how bad, it will be interesting to see

Originally Posted by Dingdongler

All your comments make complete sense though there are some exaggerations, assumptions and boderline delusions. The latter being... Why on earth would companies invest in apprenticeships when they have a supply of cheap labour on tap? The govt can only do so much to encourage such schemes.

I'm assuming you were talking about the European Medicines Agency not Medical agency? Yes Though it has a symbiotic relationship with our biotech industry I'm not sure of its role in the success of the latter.


I'll ask one question if I may? Do you think it was sustainable or desirable for the UK to continue to have an open border policy with countries that have economies so different to ours?

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2

the fact is our government do very little

Open Borders - it seems an overly pejorative term to me, can you define it better

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2

okay, but it is not "complete freedom of movement"

it has conditions - rights and responsibilities

can you confirm you understand this

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2

okay, but it is not "complete freedom of movement" - and only from the EU anyway, so your central premise is woolly


but in any case, leaving that aside EU " freedom of movement" has conditions - rights and responsibilities

can you confirm you understand this

Originally Posted by Dingdongler

I was only talking about countries within the EU so not sure why 'woolly'

Do you think these 'conditions-rights and responsibilities' are actually robust enough such that in effect they actually are any better than a complete freedom of movement?

For example.....the definition of a worker includes this

• Remuneration: a wage is a necessary precondition for activity to constitute work, but the amount is not important. The right to free movement applies whether or not the worker required additional financial assistance from the Member State into which he moves.[12] Remuneration may be indirect quid pro quo (e.g. board and lodging) rather than strict consideration for work.[13]
• Direction of another: where a person is self-employed, he can avail himself of the freedom to provide services and freedom of establishment.

Originally Posted by trails

Could you explain what you mean in the bold part please...not sure if Monday or Xmas (or base stupidity) are hindering my understanding, but it makes no sense to me.


Hemmingway editor agrees with me and can't even grade the sentence its so hard to read

Originally Posted by BMWhere?

when I moved to Germany, I had to register here and show that I had means to support myself - either a job or savings to cover my living costs - and I was not entitled to any benefits until I paid into the system for 6 months as Germans are also required to do!

So, in Germany, there are checks and balances involved. If there are none in the UK, then that is a UK problem!

Originally Posted by Dingdongler

I'm sure it's me, I had a very late night on Sunday

Let me explain. I asked Hodgy if he was happy with the status quo of 'open borders' or 'freedom of movement' with EU countries. He seemed to feel that this terminology was inaccurate/loose and questioned whether I understood that we don't have complete freedom or movement. He stated that the freedom of movement came with responsibilities.

I took that to mean that he felt that there were checks and balances involved in the process.

The copy and paste section, to my mind, shows that just about anybody can be termed a worker and therefore can come to this country.

I hope that makes more sense.

If I've misunderstood any of the rules/regs relating to the freedom of movement I'd be happy to be put straight.

Originally Posted by BMWhere?

when I moved to Germany, I had to register here and show that I had means to support myself - either a job or savings to cover my living costs - and I was not entitled to any benefits until I paid into the system for 6 months as Germans are also required to do!

So, in Germany, there are checks and balances involved. If there are none in the UK, then that is a UK problem!

Originally Posted by neil-h

You can't say that It's all the big nasty EU's fault we have so many immigrants, it can't possibly be the UK governments own **** up.

Originally Posted by BMWhere?

Sorry, am I not supposed to point out that its the UK that has the open door policy, not the EU!

Originally Posted by Dingdongler

I was only talking about countries within the EU so not sure why 'woolly'

Do you think these 'conditions-rights and responsibilities' are actually robust enough such that in effect they actually are any better than a complete freedom of movement?

For example.....the definition of a worker includes this

• Remuneration: a wage is a necessary precondition for activity to constitute work, but the amount is not important. The right to free movement applies whether or not the worker required additional financial assistance from the Member State into which he moves.[12] Remuneration may be indirect quid pro quo (e.g. board and lodging) rather than strict consideration for work.[13]
• Direction of another: where a person is self-employed, he can avail himself of the freedom to provide services and freedom of establishment.

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2

as BMWhere has explained


the right to free movement is tied to work, if you don't work you are required to prove you can support yourself and not be a burden on the host state - and satisfy the host states own requirements on this - we have a HRT

earlier on in this thread I posted a link to the page on the European Commission website that clearly explains this

I even copied the relevant text out a bolded the sections

so in short there is no concept in EU law of a freedom to go and sponge on any member states welfare system


that explains why most of the evidence suggests EU migrants pay more into the system than they take out

Originally Posted by Dingdongler

I understand that it is tied to work but doesn't the copy and paste in my post above suggest that the term 'worker' is easily abused? After all it states that payment can be quid pro quo ie board and lodging as payment. Or that you can term yourself 'self employed'

Have I completely misunderstood this?

Btw I never said that immigrants come here to sponge off the welfare but I do refute that there is robust evidence to prove that they are net contributers.

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2

okay i suspect the "quid pro quo" can apply to some of the amount a person is paid - not the whole, as that would be akin to slavery

many working people get housing as part of a job - not unusual

and yes different research says different thing re the net contribution of EU immigrants - more info here

https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-...-they-receive/

i accept it is not clear cut - eitherway

The EU is not perfect, nothing is, it comes with conditions but provides many benefits too

I get paid a wage, but in return I have to turn up for work, wear certain clothes etc etc

you join any club you have to abide by the rules - you may not agree with every rule, but presumably taken as a whole you benefit from membership so you stay


yes we have an "open border" to anyone in the EU who wants to come here for work - "so long as the work is effective and genuine" as it states in your link

how we police that, as BMWhere points out is a UK issue, - and my central argument is most of the challenges the UK faces are made in the UK not in Brussels

central to the EU ethos is that people are treated equally - that is an admirable aim, not always achievable but worth attempting

sure we could of had a better deal from EU in Boris fantasy land - "have our cake and eat it", but it is 2016 and the world does not work like that anymore - it is not the 1850's (we already had the best deal anyway)

so we are going to go thru a world of pain - recent Government reports suggest the bottom 30% will get hit the hardest for a nonesene argument that the EU is to blame for everything

fvckwits even blamed the EU for the flooding last year!!!!!!

Originally Posted by Dingdongler

Fair points but you never really answered my question. I asked whether you were happy for us to continue indefinitely with the free movement of people from the EU.

You countered by saying that the free movement of people didn't really exist. IMHO the reality is that it does, the definition of a 'worker' is so loose that anybody from the EU can come to this country.

So if I may I'll ask you the question again. Are you happy for the UK to have free movement of people agreements with countries that have a GDP capita of circa $7000 per year?

Originally Posted by BMWhere?

Consider your question the other way around, do you want the freedom for you, your kids, your grandkids etc. to live / work / retire in any EEA country you choose?

Frankly, No. If they can't get in on merit, they shouldn't be allowed to move there.


So yeah, I'm willing to let workers from the EU in to the UK and I really want the option for Brits to live, work and retire in the EU!

Originally Posted by andy97

Frankly, No. If they can't get in on merit, they shouldn't be allowed to move there.

Originally Posted by andy97

Im not willing to let uncontrolled immigration, quality of candidate come for most

Originally Posted by dpb

There wont be enough people for yts , everybody will need to turn to as carers and wages will rise apparently .
Never mind that theres not enough to go round now , and places have to resort to expensive agency

Originally Posted by dpb

Maybe hes saying expats should be able speak local language

Originally Posted by Dingdongler

So if I may I'll ask you the question again. Are you happy for the UK to have free movement of people agreements with countries that have a GDP capita of circa $7000 per year?

Originally Posted by andy97

[bFrankly, No. If they can't get in on merit, they shouldn't be allowed to move there.[/b]

Originally Posted by BMWhere?

Great, I'm sure Spain would love to send back all the British pensioners who live in their little English enclaves and can't speak a word of Spanish!