Originally Posted by Sad Weevil

I don't think that's the case at all. As I said earlier, I don't have any money. I'm not well off. The 80% of people who voted remain in my council ward aren't well off either, just about managing at best. No detached houses and holidays in Tuscany here. You can't drive along the roads at night because they're full of white vans. Well-off older people are much more likely to have voted leave, because they have nothing to worry about if it all goes **** up. I thought you said in an earlier post how well you were doing for yourself and your family, now you're claiming poverty. Also, you keep on about the leavers being a majority. Well it's only a very small one, and what about the 16-18 year olds who were too young to vote in the referendum, but will be entering the wide world about the time that brexit happens? They're the ones who will be affected most, and they didn't have a say. Not very democratic is it? Almost as many people didn't vote at all (shame on them) as voted leave. You are not the majority of people in this country, only around a quarter. Which is a small minority. Why should remainers have to bow down to you, if we genuinely believe that this will be a disaster for the country? And also, claiming that we know nothing, but learn it all from the TV is pretty funny really. I've worked in every EU country and many others besides, I see things from my own experience, and frankly pay little attention to the 'news'. Saying that all remainers are well-off know-it-alls who have been brainwashed is no different from saying all leavers are racist thickies. Which, personally, I am not saying at all.

Originally Posted by JTaylor

Some are more equal than others.

Originally Posted by JTaylor

I didn't say that you were American.

Originally Posted by Paben

This is getting out of hand!

Originally Posted by Paben

See how easy it is to misinterpret data

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2

I think your in danger of drawing a false equivalence here

The real story of the campaign was that the remain camp hardly had anything to say at all

They were simply too busy trying to refute the unremitting bullsh1t from the Brexit camp

I understand the reasons for the brexiteers to try and delude themselves that both campaigns were as bad as each other

but that's just more self justifying bullsh1t

Originally Posted by Turbohot

Blame James's #532.

Perhaps he only meant that you spoke American, or your ideology is American.

If I got it wrong, I apologise.



That's cool! I'm Welsh! Well, a plastic Welsh TBH. I'm an Indian living in Wales. I feel equal here, though. Welsh peeps are cool for making me feel equal.

You're still equal, even when you're Welsh and live near Oxford.

Originally Posted by Paben

A mere soldier indeed, and one who referred to marines in a variety of ways but never Royal. And I didn't know that American was a language either. So do statistics and data suggest from my opinions that I'm an American or is it just your gut feeling based on informed guesswork?

Originally Posted by Sad Weevil

Meanwhile my wife has just come back from visiting a friend down the road who runs a small independent shop that sells kid's clothes (locally made, not by children in Vietnam). Our local high street is renowned throughout Europe as the longest (2 mile) stretch of independent shops in Europe. Her friend is going out of business, along with many of her neighbours, none of whom were ever doing much more than getting by. They all say business has dropped off markedly since the referendum, as people are spending less due to uncertainty for the future. The damage is already being done. I'm gutted for them, and fear a return to what the place looked like in the early seventies, all boarded up and derelict. By the way, this isn't on the 'news'. We're seeing it with our own eyes.

Originally Posted by Turbohot

I love these old-fashioned words like 'bergen' and 'yomp'.

Anyway, I think Paben will believe neither you nor the Met. office. You both are unreliable. He shall believe his own instincts and decide what to do. He may stay home for a chomp and listen to the record Honkey Tonk.

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2

not sure what you mean by the Met Office "unreliable" their 5 days forecast is one of THE most reliable in the world

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/about-us...racy/forecasts

forecasting whole seasons is notoriously difficult - and when the MET office do, it always gets misrepresented in the press

the MET office always talk about "confidence levels" and "statistical uncertainty" etc in the seasonal forecast

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/about-us...ts/probability


please don't spread BUNK - there is enough on the internet already

Originally Posted by JTaylor

Yes, but if I wanted to have data interpreted a squaddie wouldn't be my go to. I'd rather ask Michael Fish.

Originally Posted by Turbohot

I was speaking on the behalf of the people who don't believe Met. Office, H.

I was being mildly sarcastic.

Originally Posted by BMWhere?

No, I don't agree that Brexit was a vote from the poor at all. I think Brexiteers and Remainers alike span the class divides, although possibly their reasoning may differ.



They is a very big assumption to make, but yes, I would probably now consider myself middle class! Although after I left school at 16, my first job was stapling cardboard boxes together. I then did a stint packing beetroot and raddishes (still can't eat either!) at a local producer - you know, the sort of jobs that Brits won't do any more! I then got a lucky break with an Electrical apprenticeship and worked on the shop floor building wiring looms. I then blagged my way into a software job and after I got a bit of experience I set up my own company and spent the last 20 years as a software consultant in Germany - You know, being one of those immigrants taking "our" jobs and sending the money back home!

So yeah, I'm doing alright for myself now, but I wasn't born with a silver spoon, I've roughed it at the bottom and I've climbed the ladder as it were, but I have as much respect for anyone wherever they're from. Nobody is better or above anyone else, rich or poor, educated or uneducated and regardless of nationality!

As for my vote - you're also right, I didn't vote! Or more specifically I couldn't vote! The previous Labour government introduced a law that prevented ex-pats voting if they have lived out of the country for more than 10 years! The current conservative government promised in their manifesto that they would repeal this law *BEFORE* the Brexit vote in 2017! They broke their manifesto promise, didn't repeal the law, held the referendum early and so I wasn't eligible to vote even though it probably directly affects my life more than most! If you think you're angry, immagine how I feel!




As I said, I don't see the way you voted as a class divide and you really need to get over this! I truly sympathise with you're situation, but please don't think the whole Brexit argument is a class war, there are plenty of rich people voted for Brexit as there are plenty of poor people who voted for remain!

What I am saying is the rich people won't be affected by Brexit. The middle class may have the tighten their belts a little. But as is usually the case with Convservative politics, the poor are going to get poorer and that is what really saddens me!

Believe it or not, I actually think the Brexit could work for the UK in the very, VERY, long term! Maybe 60 to 80 years from now when we have some reasonable trade deals taking effect, but thats all relying on the fact that the current government will lay the right foundations (I don't trust then to even get this bit right!), then successive governments making the right descissions at the right time and then a whole lot of luck with the remaining global ecconomy that is out of our hands! The thing is, it might work, if we're lucky, but its one hell of a risk and its going to leave the next generation and their kids worse off! Its just not a risk that I feel is worth taking!

I also get the anger at the current pollitical class! I want to kick them up the **** too and I really respect what the Americans have done in the US, because that really has kicked the politicians up the ****, its just a shame they did it with an biggoted billionaire! But the Brexit vote hasn't worked as a protest vote - for one its what the majority of the Conservatives wanted and nothing has really changed - its still the same old polititions running the country and pretending they're listening yet carrying on as usual with their own agendas and ignoring the what the people really want!

Yes, the Brexit side won the referendum, but its been said again and again since the day after the vote when all the lies were revealed, that if they held the vote again it would be a clear vote for remain. After all, this referendum was never because the people wanted it, it was because of conservative infighting because they couldn't win a majority because UKIP were stealing their votes!

The people want political change - I want political change! We want the government to start listening to our problems and concerns more and Brexit was an attempt by the people to get the government to listen, but it hasn't worked, and they're still not listening! "Brexit means Brexit!" - bollocks, Brexit mean shut the **** up and start listening to what we really want!

Sure the £8bn is a lot of money and it could help out a lot of things. But its not a simple as "how many schools I could build with £8bn" and in the grand scheme of things the problems in the UK are much, much bigger and £8bn a year will barely scratch the surface! When I left the UK almost 20 years ago, I knew there were problems in the UK and just assumed this was the way of the world, but when I saw how other countries don't have the same problems and do invest in their infrastructure, healthcase, schools etc. then I realised it was a UK problem.

I have listed very carefully to all the Brexit arguements, and I do get where people are coming from and why they're angry. Sadly the media and the likes of UKIP and even the government have all tried to divert the failings in the UK on the EU, but quite simply the EU is not responsible for all the problems, if any! Yes, the EU is not perfect, it certainly wastes a lot of money, but generally it has done a lot of good...

Improved working rights
Improved consumer rights
Freedom of movement
Tariff free trading/shopping
Regional investments boosting rural economies
The Euro and open borders are great for consumers and travellers (although admittably less beneficial for Island nations where you can't just pop across the border!)
Europe wide emmergency health cover

...just a few of the things that have helped to make the UK a richer country over the past 40 years! Sadly the Thatcherite government created a UK where the riches from EU membership were creamed off into corporate governance pockets reather than inwardly investing to create a better infrastructures.

The EU is simply not to blame for all the problems and leaving is not the golden ticket that's going to solve everything! Yes, its time for change, but leaving Europe is not the change we need!

Originally Posted by The Trooper 1815

My point is that everything about Trump, Brexit etc etc as been wrong. Why should I believe the Guardian (who have their own agenda anyway)?

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2

good to hear TH, I will let the matter drop :-)

Originally Posted by Kwik

I'll repeat that the EU isn't the only problem.
I agree that some middle class and upper class would have voted brexit as well as some working class voting remain.
As you say you'd consider yourself middle class but didn't vote it's safe to say you'd have voted remain.

And all the positive you've listed regarding what the EU has done for the UK also comes with massive negatives, I'd even say on certain aspects they are actually negatives themselves and cause more problems than they solve.

Originally Posted by jonc

Well of course you are entitle to stick your head in the sand and ignore the evidence. You think that the UK will get as good, if not better, a trade agreement with the EU. Why? because the UK buys a lot of BMWs? We'll still buy those BMW's but they will just be more expensive, as will everything else we import will be subject to duty and of course as will our own exports making us less competitive. As you have already said, you have no idea how it will all pan out post Brexit, but we can at least look at other non-member countries who currently trade with EU and I can assure you none of them have as good an agreement than the member states. We will not be getting any special deal from the EU, the EU and it's members have, quite vehemently, stated this; there will be no free trade without the freedom of movement. Sure we are currently a big contributor to the EU, but on our own, we are a small market compared to the EU, we are one country, they are 26. Trade deals with the rest of the world will take years to agree as we cannot start any talks until we have formally exited the EU.

The pound has fallen, everything will become more expensive, inflation and the cost of living is set to rise, how is that good for the working classes? Your opening argument to this thread centers around the UK paying too much into the EU and immigration. But post Brexit, the EU will still be the UK's largest market, the UK will still be paying into the EU to trade and export of goods and services will still have to conform to EU legislation, only now the UK will no longer have a say on those rules. We may have more controlled immigration, but we will still have migrants coming from the EU and from the rest of the world to work here, but also UK's border check in Calais will now likely move back into the UK. You also stated that the EU pays businesses to relocate from the UK into Europe. Well, unless it's escaped you, since the referendum, many businesses have or will be making contingency plans to move out of the UK. The Government recently had to give Nissan "special assurances" to ensure they continued building cars in the UK thereby safeguarding 7000 jobs.

This is some of what the UK is witness to at the moment. Granted this could be just the storm before the calm, but what compelling argument do you have for leaving the EU? All you've brought so far are the perceived negativity of being within the EU, nothing of substance with regards to the benefits we will get for being outside of the EU. We get the the £8bn, we get more control of immigration, what else is there or is that it? Because it certainly wasn't a vote about working class voting against the middle class and/or political elite since the voting was mixed right across the class spectrum.

Originally Posted by Kwik

There are 2 sides to every coin.
The BMW's you're on about WILL be more expensive, that won't mean they cost more overall it means less will be bought. And that's the same for every EU product unless there is a good trade agreement in place.

Originally Posted by Kwik

That WILL hurt the EU and it's members. Ok it will be distributed across but it will hurt some more than others. One country will certainly be Germany, who already pay the highest (iirc). Without the UK's £8bn they are likely to have to pay even more per year.
I'm not sure why people think that won't have a negative impact on the remaining EU countries. There's certainly reason to believe that other EU countries may consider their position within the EU.

Originally Posted by Kwik

As for freedom of movement well that's another kettle of fish. Having full say on numbers as well as the type of controls we put into place is the key. The quality and quantity is the big concern rather than the whole 'bloody foreigner' angle.

Originally Posted by Kwik

As for businesses planning to move out of the uk well that's probably because they have only heard how bad things will be in years to come. Without any trade agreement being set yet it's all speculation and fear mongering, not the same as businesses that have already moved from the U.K. with the help of the EU.

Originally Posted by Kwik

I'm done with this thread now.

I'm not repeating myself over and over to those who are very selective in what they are reading and are goggle eyed from the 'facts' on the news.

I think we've quite clearly established the remain camp as hypocritical, media zombies who are completely unable to open their eyes to their own hypocrisy.

As I said in one of the earlier pages I don't tend to post on here as you get berated by the numbers, the intellectual snobbery rules the roost and once again I find myself having been drawn in by people unable to accept someone else's political opinion (definition of a bigot) and getting it from all sides.

I'm struggling to keep up with the amount of questions from the amount of people who obviously should have found these things out before they voted.

I'll 'up' this thread in a few years. See how we are at that point .

Thanks to those who actually put some thought into their posts.

Originally Posted by Turbohot

Opinion.

You're an educated IN voter, come on.



Note: If 'oppinion' is some old-fashioned, pompous, biblical word, then I do apologise, and must Google it to find its meaning.

Originally Posted by neil-h

Ah yes, my apologies my lady. I shall have to have Jeeves disciplined for his indiscression, such shoddy workmanship will not be tolerated.

Regards,
Neil-H
DBNR

Originally Posted by Kwik

As you say you'd consider yourself middle class but didn't vote it's safe to say you'd have voted remain.

Originally Posted by BMWhere?

Absolutely I would have voted for remain, but not because I'm middle class!

My current life 100% depends on freedom to live and work in another EU country. Fortunately I've been here long enough that I am eligible to apply for German nationality, but I know other Brits here who don't! For me its very important to know what the situation is going be with regards to freedom of movement as it could determine whether I have to return to the UK, take German nationality, apply for working and residential visas etc.

Even the issue of taking German nationality is not a simple one. Germany doesn't normally allow dual-nationality. There is an exception for EU members where they will allow you to keep dual nationality for 1 other EU country. So as things stand I can take German nationality and keep my British nationality which is something I could live with. But what happens when the UK leaves is completely unknown - will my dual nationality still be recognised or will I have to give up my British nationality? Something I could not live with!

Originally Posted by Kwik

I think we've quite clearly established the remain camp as hypocritical, media zombies who are completely unable to open their eyes to their own hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by BMWhere?

But what happens when the UK leaves is completely unknown - will my dual nationality still be recognised or will I have to give up my British nationality? Something I could not live with!

Originally Posted by hodgy0_2

we have spoken about this before

it does seem oxymoronic that Germany will allow dual nationality with another EU country - when you don't really need it

I did know a guy who had dual SA / German nationality

what about Swiss Germans - do they not have dual nationality

Originally Posted by dpb

oh dear , thrown his toys out the pram and bottled it , like Warren