So Brexit seems to be a good thing then.
#841
Yep, need to bring back schemes like the YTS, solves the cheap labour problem, gets kids off the dole, teaches them basic skill like getting out of bed and going to work as well as learning some sort of trade.
It's not perfect but it's better than nothing and tax payers get something for their money as opposed to just giving people money to sit around doing nothing.
It's not perfect but it's better than nothing and tax payers get something for their money as opposed to just giving people money to sit around doing nothing.
#842
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There wont be enough people for yts , everybody will need to turn to as carers and wages will rise apparently .
Never mind that theres not enough to go round now , and places have to resort to expensive agency
Never mind that theres not enough to go round now , and places have to resort to expensive agency
#843
Scooby Regular
Okay, yes we have literally 1000's of complex issues, the (thoughtful) politicians are beginning to realise that
I posited just one on this thread - the European Medical Agency, based in the Docklands, in part responsible for our dominance in the biotech industry (high skill high wage jobs) and makes inward investment from other countries like India attractive
Trade deals with other countries will inevitably require agreements on immigration - only the wilfully delusional would not accept that
We have NOT made a small step, sorry that is verging on the delusional too, why, well pretty much everyone is accepting this whole process will take 10 years
10 years on uncertainty - businesses will move to Europe, the banks/financial services are well underway to move whole operations to Paris/Frankfurt
Big corporations will simply move to cheap labour - the UK will not stop 40 years of neo liberal economic claptrap by shooting itself in the foot
David Davis, see through the jaunty smile and kindly old uncle demeanour and he sings from the same hymn-sheet as the rest of the lunatics in charge
There are lots of "small steps" approaches we could take, massive expansion of apprenticeship schemes for example
We could have spent the last 10 years of ultra cheap money for a massive UK wide infrastructure program to make a positive and proactive approach to rebalancing the UK's lopsided economy (regionally and in economic make up)
Instead of being forced to because the City will up stick and move to Europe
But no, its all the EU's fault and we voted to give the lunatics the keys to the asylum
It is going to be a interesting 10 odd years, winners and losers absolutely
The losers will by and large be the same losers as now, only worse - as we get poorer as a nation
Ps I have been posting on our low wage low aspiration zero hour contract flatlining social mobility for the last 8 years on this forum
So I have been aware of the problem before its become fashionable - but leaving the EU is a really bad idea
Just how bad, it will be interesting to see
I posited just one on this thread - the European Medical Agency, based in the Docklands, in part responsible for our dominance in the biotech industry (high skill high wage jobs) and makes inward investment from other countries like India attractive
Trade deals with other countries will inevitably require agreements on immigration - only the wilfully delusional would not accept that
We have NOT made a small step, sorry that is verging on the delusional too, why, well pretty much everyone is accepting this whole process will take 10 years
10 years on uncertainty - businesses will move to Europe, the banks/financial services are well underway to move whole operations to Paris/Frankfurt
Big corporations will simply move to cheap labour - the UK will not stop 40 years of neo liberal economic claptrap by shooting itself in the foot
David Davis, see through the jaunty smile and kindly old uncle demeanour and he sings from the same hymn-sheet as the rest of the lunatics in charge
There are lots of "small steps" approaches we could take, massive expansion of apprenticeship schemes for example
We could have spent the last 10 years of ultra cheap money for a massive UK wide infrastructure program to make a positive and proactive approach to rebalancing the UK's lopsided economy (regionally and in economic make up)
Instead of being forced to because the City will up stick and move to Europe
But no, its all the EU's fault and we voted to give the lunatics the keys to the asylum
It is going to be a interesting 10 odd years, winners and losers absolutely
The losers will by and large be the same losers as now, only worse - as we get poorer as a nation
Ps I have been posting on our low wage low aspiration zero hour contract flatlining social mobility for the last 8 years on this forum
So I have been aware of the problem before its become fashionable - but leaving the EU is a really bad idea
Just how bad, it will be interesting to see
All your comments make complete sense though there are some exaggerations, assumptions and boderline delusions. The latter being... Why on earth would companies invest in apprenticeships when they have a supply of cheap labour on tap? The govt can only do so much to encourage such schemes.
I'm assuming you were talking about the European Medicines Agency not Medical agency? Though it has a symbiotic relationship with our biotech industry I'm not sure of its role in the success of the latter.
I'll ask one question if I may? Do you think it was sustainable or desirable for the UK to continue to have an open border policy with countries that have economies so different to ours?
Last edited by Dingdongler; 18 December 2016 at 10:16 AM.
#844
Scooby Regular
All your comments make complete sense though there are some exaggerations, assumptions and boderline delusions. The latter being... Why on earth would companies invest in apprenticeships when they have a supply of cheap labour on tap? The govt can only do so much to encourage such schemes.
I'm assuming you were talking about the European Medicines Agency not Medical agency? Yes Though it has a symbiotic relationship with our biotech industry I'm not sure of its role in the success of the latter.
I'll ask one question if I may? Do you think it was sustainable or desirable for the UK to continue to have an open border policy with countries that have economies so different to ours?
I'm assuming you were talking about the European Medicines Agency not Medical agency? Yes Though it has a symbiotic relationship with our biotech industry I'm not sure of its role in the success of the latter.
I'll ask one question if I may? Do you think it was sustainable or desirable for the UK to continue to have an open border policy with countries that have economies so different to ours?
Open Borders - it seems an overly pejorative term to me, can you define it better
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 18 December 2016 at 11:58 AM.
#845
Scooby Regular
Well I'll definitely agree that our govts do very little.
Open borders- I mean the complete freedom of movement of people from countries with a GDP per capita as low as $7,000 per year compared to our circa $40,000.
Do you feel that something needs to be done about this or are you happy for it to continue?
#846
Scooby Regular
okay, but it is not "complete freedom of movement" - and only from the EU anyway, so your central premise is woolly
but in any case, leaving that aside EU " freedom of movement" has conditions - rights and responsibilities
can you confirm you understand this
but in any case, leaving that aside EU " freedom of movement" has conditions - rights and responsibilities
can you confirm you understand this
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 18 December 2016 at 03:14 PM.
#849
Scooby Regular
I was only talking about countries within the EU so not sure why 'woolly'
Do you think these 'conditions-rights and responsibilities' are actually robust enough such that in effect they actually are any better than a complete freedom of movement?
For example.....the definition of a worker includes this
- Remuneration: a wage is a necessary precondition for activity to constitute work, but the amount is not important. The right to free movement applies whether or not the worker required additional financial assistance from the Member State into which he moves.[12] Remuneration may be indirect quid pro quo (e.g. board and lodging) rather than strict consideration for work.[13]
- Direction of another: where a person is self-employed, he can avail himself of the freedom to provide services and freedom of establishment.
#850
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I was only talking about countries within the EU so not sure why 'woolly'
Do you think these 'conditions-rights and responsibilities' are actually robust enough such that in effect they actually are any better than a complete freedom of movement?
For example.....the definition of a worker includes this
Do you think these 'conditions-rights and responsibilities' are actually robust enough such that in effect they actually are any better than a complete freedom of movement?
For example.....the definition of a worker includes this
- Remuneration: a wage is a necessary precondition for activity to constitute work, but the amount is not important. The right to free movement applies whether or not the worker required additional financial assistance from the Member State into which he moves.[12] Remuneration may be indirect quid pro quo (e.g. board and lodging) rather than strict consideration for work.[13]
- Direction of another: where a person is self-employed, he can avail himself of the freedom to provide services and freedom of establishment.
Could you explain what you mean in the bold part please...not sure if Monday or Xmas (or base stupidity) are hindering my understanding, but it makes no sense to me.
Hemmingway editor agrees with me and can't even grade the sentence its so hard to read
#851
Scooby Regular
I'm sure it's me, I had a very late night on Sunday
Let me explain. I asked Hodgy if he was happy with the status quo of 'open borders' or 'freedom of movement' with EU countries. He seemed to feel that this terminology was inaccurate/loose and questioned whether I understood that we don't have complete freedom or movement. He stated that the freedom of movement came with responsibilities.
I took that to mean that he felt that there were checks and balances involved in the process.
The copy and paste section, to my mind, shows that just about anybody can be termed a worker and therefore can come to this country.
I hope that makes more sense.
If I've misunderstood any of the rules/regs relating to the freedom of movement I'd be happy to be put straight.
#852
Scooby Senior
[QUOTE=Dingdongler;11904549
I took that to mean that he felt that there were checks and balances involved in the process.
[/QUOTE]
when I moved to Germany, I had to register here and show that I had means to support myself - either a job or savings to cover my living costs - and I was not entitled to any benefits until I paid into the system for 6 months as Germans are also required to do!
So, in Germany, there are checks and balances involved. If there are none in the UK, then that is a UK problem!
I took that to mean that he felt that there were checks and balances involved in the process.
[/QUOTE]
when I moved to Germany, I had to register here and show that I had means to support myself - either a job or savings to cover my living costs - and I was not entitled to any benefits until I paid into the system for 6 months as Germans are also required to do!
So, in Germany, there are checks and balances involved. If there are none in the UK, then that is a UK problem!
#853
when I moved to Germany, I had to register here and show that I had means to support myself - either a job or savings to cover my living costs - and I was not entitled to any benefits until I paid into the system for 6 months as Germans are also required to do!
So, in Germany, there are checks and balances involved. If there are none in the UK, then that is a UK problem!
So, in Germany, there are checks and balances involved. If there are none in the UK, then that is a UK problem!
#854
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I'm sure it's me, I had a very late night on Sunday
Let me explain. I asked Hodgy if he was happy with the status quo of 'open borders' or 'freedom of movement' with EU countries. He seemed to feel that this terminology was inaccurate/loose and questioned whether I understood that we don't have complete freedom or movement. He stated that the freedom of movement came with responsibilities.
I took that to mean that he felt that there were checks and balances involved in the process.
The copy and paste section, to my mind, shows that just about anybody can be termed a worker and therefore can come to this country.
I hope that makes more sense.
If I've misunderstood any of the rules/regs relating to the freedom of movement I'd be happy to be put straight.
Let me explain. I asked Hodgy if he was happy with the status quo of 'open borders' or 'freedom of movement' with EU countries. He seemed to feel that this terminology was inaccurate/loose and questioned whether I understood that we don't have complete freedom or movement. He stated that the freedom of movement came with responsibilities.
I took that to mean that he felt that there were checks and balances involved in the process.
The copy and paste section, to my mind, shows that just about anybody can be termed a worker and therefore can come to this country.
I hope that makes more sense.
If I've misunderstood any of the rules/regs relating to the freedom of movement I'd be happy to be put straight.
there is this...which seems a bit wafty.
All these checks are the responsibility of the UK government not the EU so again not a good reason to leave...is it?
#855
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when I moved to Germany, I had to register here and show that I had means to support myself - either a job or savings to cover my living costs - and I was not entitled to any benefits until I paid into the system for 6 months as Germans are also required to do!
So, in Germany, there are checks and balances involved. If there are none in the UK, then that is a UK problem!
So, in Germany, there are checks and balances involved. If there are none in the UK, then that is a UK problem!
#856
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#858
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I was only talking about countries within the EU so not sure why 'woolly'
Do you think these 'conditions-rights and responsibilities' are actually robust enough such that in effect they actually are any better than a complete freedom of movement?
For example.....the definition of a worker includes this
Do you think these 'conditions-rights and responsibilities' are actually robust enough such that in effect they actually are any better than a complete freedom of movement?
For example.....the definition of a worker includes this
- Remuneration: a wage is a necessary precondition for activity to constitute work, but the amount is not important. The right to free movement applies whether or not the worker required additional financial assistance from the Member State into which he moves.[12] Remuneration may be indirect quid pro quo (e.g. board and lodging) rather than strict consideration for work.[13]
- Direction of another: where a person is self-employed, he can avail himself of the freedom to provide services and freedom of establishment.
as BMWhere has explained
the right to free movement is tied to work, if you don't work you are required to prove you can support yourself and not be a burden on the host state - and satisfy the host states own requirements on this - we have a HRT
earlier on in this thread I posted a link to the page on the European Commission website that clearly explains this
I even copied the relevant text out a bolded the sections
so in short there is no concept in EU law of a freedom to go and sponge on any member states welfare system
that explains why most of the evidence suggests EU migrants pay more into the system than they take out
#859
Scooby Regular
as BMWhere has explained
the right to free movement is tied to work, if you don't work you are required to prove you can support yourself and not be a burden on the host state - and satisfy the host states own requirements on this - we have a HRT
earlier on in this thread I posted a link to the page on the European Commission website that clearly explains this
I even copied the relevant text out a bolded the sections
so in short there is no concept in EU law of a freedom to go and sponge on any member states welfare system
that explains why most of the evidence suggests EU migrants pay more into the system than they take out
the right to free movement is tied to work, if you don't work you are required to prove you can support yourself and not be a burden on the host state - and satisfy the host states own requirements on this - we have a HRT
earlier on in this thread I posted a link to the page on the European Commission website that clearly explains this
I even copied the relevant text out a bolded the sections
so in short there is no concept in EU law of a freedom to go and sponge on any member states welfare system
that explains why most of the evidence suggests EU migrants pay more into the system than they take out
I understand that it is tied to work but doesn't the copy and paste in my post above suggest that the term 'worker' is easily abused? After all it states that payment can be quid pro quo ie board and lodging as payment. Or that you can term yourself 'self employed'
Have I completely misunderstood this?
Btw I never said that immigrants come here to sponge off the welfare but I do refute that there is robust evidence to prove that they are net contributers.
#860
Scooby Regular
I understand that it is tied to work but doesn't the copy and paste in my post above suggest that the term 'worker' is easily abused? After all it states that payment can be quid pro quo ie board and lodging as payment. Or that you can term yourself 'self employed'
Have I completely misunderstood this?
Btw I never said that immigrants come here to sponge off the welfare but I do refute that there is robust evidence to prove that they are net contributers.
Have I completely misunderstood this?
Btw I never said that immigrants come here to sponge off the welfare but I do refute that there is robust evidence to prove that they are net contributers.
okay i suspect the "quid pro quo" can apply to some of the amount a person is paid - not the whole, as that would be akin to slavery
many working people get housing as part of a job - not unusual
and yes different research says different thing re the net contribution of EU immigrants - more info here
https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-...-they-receive/
i accept it is not clear cut - eitherway
The EU is not perfect, nothing is, it comes with conditions but provides many benefits too
I get paid a wage, but in return I have to turn up for work, wear certain clothes etc etc
you join any club you have to abide by the rules - you may not agree with every rule, but presumably taken as a whole you benefit from membership so you stay
yes we have an "open border" to anyone in the EU who wants to come here for work - "so long as the work is effective and genuine" as it states in your link
how we police that, as BMWhere points out is a UK issue, - and my central argument is most of the challenges the UK faces are made in the UK not in Brussels
central to the EU ethos is that people are treated equally - that is an admirable aim, not always achievable but worth attempting
sure we could of had a better deal from EU in Boris fantasy land - "have our cake and eat it", but it is 2016 and the world does not work like that anymore - it is not the 1850's (we already had the best deal anyway)
so we are going to go thru a world of pain - recent Government reports suggest the bottom 30% will get hit the hardest for a nonesene argument that the EU is to blame for everything
fvckwits even blamed the EU for the flooding last year!!!!!!
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 20 December 2016 at 05:20 PM.
#861
Scooby Regular
okay i suspect the "quid pro quo" can apply to some of the amount a person is paid - not the whole, as that would be akin to slavery
many working people get housing as part of a job - not unusual
and yes different research says different thing re the net contribution of EU immigrants - more info here
https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-...-they-receive/
i accept it is not clear cut - eitherway
The EU is not perfect, nothing is, it comes with conditions but provides many benefits too
I get paid a wage, but in return I have to turn up for work, wear certain clothes etc etc
you join any club you have to abide by the rules - you may not agree with every rule, but presumably taken as a whole you benefit from membership so you stay
yes we have an "open border" to anyone in the EU who wants to come here for work - "so long as the work is effective and genuine" as it states in your link
how we police that, as BMWhere points out is a UK issue, - and my central argument is most of the challenges the UK faces are made in the UK not in Brussels
central to the EU ethos is that people are treated equally - that is an admirable aim, not always achievable but worth attempting
sure we could of had a better deal from EU in Boris fantasy land - "have our cake and eat it", but it is 2016 and the world does not work like that anymore - it is not the 1850's (we already had the best deal anyway)
so we are going to go thru a world of pain - recent Government reports suggest the bottom 30% will get hit the hardest for a nonesene argument that the EU is to blame for everything
fvckwits even blamed the EU for the flooding last year!!!!!!
many working people get housing as part of a job - not unusual
and yes different research says different thing re the net contribution of EU immigrants - more info here
https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-...-they-receive/
i accept it is not clear cut - eitherway
The EU is not perfect, nothing is, it comes with conditions but provides many benefits too
I get paid a wage, but in return I have to turn up for work, wear certain clothes etc etc
you join any club you have to abide by the rules - you may not agree with every rule, but presumably taken as a whole you benefit from membership so you stay
yes we have an "open border" to anyone in the EU who wants to come here for work - "so long as the work is effective and genuine" as it states in your link
how we police that, as BMWhere points out is a UK issue, - and my central argument is most of the challenges the UK faces are made in the UK not in Brussels
central to the EU ethos is that people are treated equally - that is an admirable aim, not always achievable but worth attempting
sure we could of had a better deal from EU in Boris fantasy land - "have our cake and eat it", but it is 2016 and the world does not work like that anymore - it is not the 1850's (we already had the best deal anyway)
so we are going to go thru a world of pain - recent Government reports suggest the bottom 30% will get hit the hardest for a nonesene argument that the EU is to blame for everything
fvckwits even blamed the EU for the flooding last year!!!!!!
Fair points but you never really answered my question. I asked whether you were happy for us to continue indefinitely with the free movement of people from the EU.
You countered by saying that the free movement of people didn't really exist. IMHO the reality is that it does, the definition of a 'worker' is so loose that anybody from the EU can come to this country.
So if I may I'll ask you the question again. Are you happy for the UK to have free movement of people agreements with countries that have a GDP capita of circa $7000 per year?
#862
Scooby Senior
Fair points but you never really answered my question. I asked whether you were happy for us to continue indefinitely with the free movement of people from the EU.
You countered by saying that the free movement of people didn't really exist. IMHO the reality is that it does, the definition of a 'worker' is so loose that anybody from the EU can come to this country.
So if I may I'll ask you the question again. Are you happy for the UK to have free movement of people agreements with countries that have a GDP capita of circa $7000 per year?
You countered by saying that the free movement of people didn't really exist. IMHO the reality is that it does, the definition of a 'worker' is so loose that anybody from the EU can come to this country.
So if I may I'll ask you the question again. Are you happy for the UK to have free movement of people agreements with countries that have a GDP capita of circa $7000 per year?
This isn't a one way thing! There are thousands of Brits retired in Spain. Many more working across Europe - myself included. There are nearly as many Brits leaving the UK to live in Europe as there are EU migrants coming to the UK. In the past its was the other way round, particularly with British construction workers in Spain and Germany. No doubt in the future the tables would turn again (were we to remain!).
Ultimately, the UK economy has been relatively strong in the last years and of course that means we need more workers, particularly in lower paid jobs and of course many of those empolyers simply can't find the people in the UK. Unemployment in the UK is currently extremely low! We need immigrants and the immigration figures would suggest that we cannot source enough immigrants from the EU so we have to look further afield.
Maybe ask yourself this - if we need to have immigrants, where do you want them to come from? From friendly, like minded EU neighbours, even some with $7000/capita GDP (as you claim) or from other countries with very different cultures and even lower GDP's?
Quite simply, you're not going to stop immigration or even control it as immigration is predominantly controlled by the economy and not by politicians! Quite frankly, if you put the same controls on EU migrants as the rest of the world, then the economy will still search for the cheapest immigrants and they are no longer going to be from EU, they are going to be from the poorest countries possible for the cheapest labour costs! The current system favours slightly more expensive workers from the EU!
So yeah, I'm willing to let workers from the EU in to the UK and I really want the option for Brits to live, work and retire in the EU!
#863
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Consider your question the other way around, do you want the freedom for you, your kids, your grandkids etc. to live / work / retire in any EEA country you choose?
Frankly, No. If they can't get in on merit, they shouldn't be allowed to move there.
So yeah, I'm willing to let workers from the EU in to the UK and I really want the option for Brits to live, work and retire in the EU!
Frankly, No. If they can't get in on merit, they shouldn't be allowed to move there.
So yeah, I'm willing to let workers from the EU in to the UK and I really want the option for Brits to live, work and retire in the EU!
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Despite the fact we need lots of low skilled workers, which the UK cannot provide in the numbers required for our expanding economy.
#866
Professional carers from other countries get none of that but a very little wage and 'go home' abuse. I don't know why they bother. Actually, I do. Although prioritising self-dignity sounds amazing but when there is a danger to one's life in one's homeland, you would prioritise wiping the bums of the haters than get killed in your own homeland, I suppose.
#867
#868
Scooby Regular
since we have established it is free movement for people coming to work "so long as the work is effective and genuine"
since we have established that any failure to adhere to this principle is not really the fault of the EU, but the UK
since we have accepted that the net benefit of EU workers is not cut and dried either way, some analysis says negative, some says positive
so I suspect whether negative net negative or net positive - in the grand scheme of things negligible
I accept and acknowledge the above, as I have said no system is perfect
but the flip side (just one of many) is our financial services which are worth 120 billion to the UK economy and rely heavily on pass-porting rights and the free movement of services (free movement of service is rarely given as part of any trade deal)
foreign banks from the US and Japan have already announced an intention to relocated
so in answer yes I think the quid pro quo is worth it - out of interest how many of those low GDP migrants are here
so how much cost to UK GDP, would you think it is worth restricting free movement of labour
also do you think in the coming negotiations the French are likely to want the UK continental border moved back to the UK - and if so how much do you think the UK should pay to keep it on France
#869
Scooby Senior
#870
I was talking to a Brexiteer pensioner who now lives in Spain. He said that he and his pensioner missus have contributed to the economy of Spain by buying a property there, and that's why they have a right to remain there; merit or not with not knowing a word of Spanish and offering no skills to do anything there. They just potter about and do some gardening for themselves there. Perhaps growing tomatoes or something for fun.