So Brexit seems to be a good thing then.
24 November 2016, 05:10 PM
#481
Scooby Regular
24 November 2016, 05:13 PM
#483
Meanwhile my wife has just come back from visiting a friend down the road who runs a small independent shop that sells kid's clothes (locally made, not by children in Vietnam). Our local high street is renowned throughout Europe as the longest (2 mile) stretch of independent shops in Europe. Her friend is going out of business, along with many of her neighbours, none of whom were ever doing much more than getting by. They all say business has dropped off markedly since the referendum, as people are spending less due to uncertainty for the future. The damage is already being done. I'm gutted for them, and fear a return to what the place looked like in the early seventies, all boarded up and derelict. By the way, this isn't on the 'news'. We're seeing it with our own eyes.
Last edited by Sad Weevil; 24 November 2016 at 05:16 PM.
24 November 2016, 05:15 PM
#484
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Only the majority who voted, I seem to remember seeing a graph somewhere that showed the majority either couldn't or didn't take part.
On the subject of graphs however, I'll just leave these here so i can find them later (from the Guardian apparently).
On the subject of graphs however, I'll just leave these here so i can find them later (from the Guardian apparently).
24 November 2016, 05:17 PM
#485
Scooby Regular
No, I don't agree that Brexit was a vote from the poor at all. I think Brexiteers and Remainers alike span the class divides, although possibly their reasoning may differ.
They is a very big assumption to make, but yes, I would probably now consider myself middle class! Although after I left school at 16, my first job was stapling cardboard boxes together. I then did a stint packing beetroot and raddishes (still can't eat either!) at a local producer - you know, the sort of jobs that Brits won't do any more! I then got a lucky break with an Electrical apprenticeship and worked on the shop floor building wiring looms. I then blagged my way into a software job and after I got a bit of experience I set up my own company and spent the last 20 years as a software consultant in Germany - You know, being one of those immigrants taking "our" jobs and sending the money back home!
So yeah, I'm doing alright for myself now, but I wasn't born with a silver spoon, I've roughed it at the bottom and I've climbed the ladder as it were, but I have as much respect for anyone wherever they're from. Nobody is better or above anyone else, rich or poor, educated or uneducated and regardless of nationality!
As for my vote - you're also right, I didn't vote! Or more specifically I couldn't vote! The previous Labour government introduced a law that prevented ex-pats voting if they have lived out of the country for more than 10 years! The current conservative government promised in their manifesto that they would repeal this law *BEFORE* the Brexit vote in 2017! They broke their manifesto promise, didn't repeal the law, held the referendum early and so I wasn't eligible to vote even though it probably directly affects my life more than most! If you think you're angry, immagine how I feel!
As I said, I don't see the way you voted as a class divide and you really need to get over this! I truly sympathise with you're situation, but please don't think the whole Brexit argument is a class war, there are plenty of rich people voted for Brexit as there are plenty of poor people who voted for remain!
What I am saying is the rich people won't be affected by Brexit. The middle class may have the tighten their belts a little. But as is usually the case with Convservative politics, the poor are going to get poorer and that is what really saddens me!
Believe it or not, I actually think the Brexit could work for the UK in the very, VERY, long term! Maybe 60 to 80 years from now when we have some reasonable trade deals taking effect, but thats all relying on the fact that the current government will lay the right foundations (I don't trust then to even get this bit right!), then successive governments making the right descissions at the right time and then a whole lot of luck with the remaining global ecconomy that is out of our hands! The thing is, it might work, if we're lucky, but its one hell of a risk and its going to leave the next generation and their kids worse off! Its just not a risk that I feel is worth taking!
I also get the anger at the current pollitical class! I want to kick them up the **** too and I really respect what the Americans have done in the US, because that really has kicked the politicians up the ****, its just a shame they did it with an biggoted billionaire! But the Brexit vote hasn't worked as a protest vote - for one its what the majority of the Conservatives wanted and nothing has really changed - its still the same old polititions running the country and pretending they're listening yet carrying on as usual with their own agendas and ignoring the what the people really want!
Yes, the Brexit side won the referendum, but its been said again and again since the day after the vote when all the lies were revealed, that if they held the vote again it would be a clear vote for remain. After all, this referendum was never because the people wanted it, it was because of conservative infighting because they couldn't win a majority because UKIP were stealing their votes!
The people want political change - I want political change! We want the government to start listening to our problems and concerns more and Brexit was an attempt by the people to get the government to listen, but it hasn't worked, and they're still not listening! "Brexit means Brexit!" - bollocks, Brexit mean shut the **** up and start listening to what we really want!
Sure the £8bn is a lot of money and it could help out a lot of things. But its not a simple as "how many schools I could build with £8bn" and in the grand scheme of things the problems in the UK are much, much bigger and £8bn a year will barely scratch the surface! When I left the UK almost 20 years ago, I knew there were problems in the UK and just assumed this was the way of the world, but when I saw how other countries don't have the same problems and do invest in their infrastructure, healthcase, schools etc. then I realised it was a UK problem.
I have listed very carefully to all the Brexit arguements, and I do get where people are coming from and why they're angry. Sadly the media and the likes of UKIP and even the government have all tried to divert the failings in the UK on the EU, but quite simply the EU is not responsible for all the problems, if any! Yes, the EU is not perfect, it certainly wastes a lot of money, but generally it has done a lot of good...
Improved working rights
Improved consumer rights
Freedom of movement
Tariff free trading/shopping
Regional investments boosting rural economies
The Euro and open borders are great for consumers and travellers (although admittably less beneficial for Island nations where you can't just pop across the border!)
Europe wide emmergency health cover
...just a few of the things that have helped to make the UK a richer country over the past 40 years! Sadly the Thatcherite government created a UK where the riches from EU membership were creamed off into corporate governance pockets reather than inwardly investing to create a better infrastructures.
The EU is simply not to blame for all the problems and leaving is not the golden ticket that's going to solve everything! Yes, its time for change, but leaving Europe is not the change we need!
They is a very big assumption to make, but yes, I would probably now consider myself middle class! Although after I left school at 16, my first job was stapling cardboard boxes together. I then did a stint packing beetroot and raddishes (still can't eat either!) at a local producer - you know, the sort of jobs that Brits won't do any more! I then got a lucky break with an Electrical apprenticeship and worked on the shop floor building wiring looms. I then blagged my way into a software job and after I got a bit of experience I set up my own company and spent the last 20 years as a software consultant in Germany - You know, being one of those immigrants taking "our" jobs and sending the money back home!
So yeah, I'm doing alright for myself now, but I wasn't born with a silver spoon, I've roughed it at the bottom and I've climbed the ladder as it were, but I have as much respect for anyone wherever they're from. Nobody is better or above anyone else, rich or poor, educated or uneducated and regardless of nationality!
As for my vote - you're also right, I didn't vote! Or more specifically I couldn't vote! The previous Labour government introduced a law that prevented ex-pats voting if they have lived out of the country for more than 10 years! The current conservative government promised in their manifesto that they would repeal this law *BEFORE* the Brexit vote in 2017! They broke their manifesto promise, didn't repeal the law, held the referendum early and so I wasn't eligible to vote even though it probably directly affects my life more than most! If you think you're angry, immagine how I feel!
As I said, I don't see the way you voted as a class divide and you really need to get over this! I truly sympathise with you're situation, but please don't think the whole Brexit argument is a class war, there are plenty of rich people voted for Brexit as there are plenty of poor people who voted for remain!
What I am saying is the rich people won't be affected by Brexit. The middle class may have the tighten their belts a little. But as is usually the case with Convservative politics, the poor are going to get poorer and that is what really saddens me!
Believe it or not, I actually think the Brexit could work for the UK in the very, VERY, long term! Maybe 60 to 80 years from now when we have some reasonable trade deals taking effect, but thats all relying on the fact that the current government will lay the right foundations (I don't trust then to even get this bit right!), then successive governments making the right descissions at the right time and then a whole lot of luck with the remaining global ecconomy that is out of our hands! The thing is, it might work, if we're lucky, but its one hell of a risk and its going to leave the next generation and their kids worse off! Its just not a risk that I feel is worth taking!
I also get the anger at the current pollitical class! I want to kick them up the **** too and I really respect what the Americans have done in the US, because that really has kicked the politicians up the ****, its just a shame they did it with an biggoted billionaire! But the Brexit vote hasn't worked as a protest vote - for one its what the majority of the Conservatives wanted and nothing has really changed - its still the same old polititions running the country and pretending they're listening yet carrying on as usual with their own agendas and ignoring the what the people really want!
Yes, the Brexit side won the referendum, but its been said again and again since the day after the vote when all the lies were revealed, that if they held the vote again it would be a clear vote for remain. After all, this referendum was never because the people wanted it, it was because of conservative infighting because they couldn't win a majority because UKIP were stealing their votes!
The people want political change - I want political change! We want the government to start listening to our problems and concerns more and Brexit was an attempt by the people to get the government to listen, but it hasn't worked, and they're still not listening! "Brexit means Brexit!" - bollocks, Brexit mean shut the **** up and start listening to what we really want!
Sure the £8bn is a lot of money and it could help out a lot of things. But its not a simple as "how many schools I could build with £8bn" and in the grand scheme of things the problems in the UK are much, much bigger and £8bn a year will barely scratch the surface! When I left the UK almost 20 years ago, I knew there were problems in the UK and just assumed this was the way of the world, but when I saw how other countries don't have the same problems and do invest in their infrastructure, healthcase, schools etc. then I realised it was a UK problem.
I have listed very carefully to all the Brexit arguements, and I do get where people are coming from and why they're angry. Sadly the media and the likes of UKIP and even the government have all tried to divert the failings in the UK on the EU, but quite simply the EU is not responsible for all the problems, if any! Yes, the EU is not perfect, it certainly wastes a lot of money, but generally it has done a lot of good...
Improved working rights
Improved consumer rights
Freedom of movement
Tariff free trading/shopping
Regional investments boosting rural economies
The Euro and open borders are great for consumers and travellers (although admittably less beneficial for Island nations where you can't just pop across the border!)
Europe wide emmergency health cover
...just a few of the things that have helped to make the UK a richer country over the past 40 years! Sadly the Thatcherite government created a UK where the riches from EU membership were creamed off into corporate governance pockets reather than inwardly investing to create a better infrastructures.
The EU is simply not to blame for all the problems and leaving is not the golden ticket that's going to solve everything! Yes, its time for change, but leaving Europe is not the change we need!
Is how willing people are to vote against there self interest, - I have been wrong about that
To think that May, Fox, IDS et al have the working mans interests at heart is fantasy
24 November 2016, 08:12 PM
#487
Yes indeed; all bad stuff will be blamed on Brexit, any good stuff will be despite Brexit. Lots of despair, sadly shaken heads and 'told you so's'. For years the Chinese blamed everything on the Gang of Four: Brexit could cover all bases for far longer.
24 November 2016, 08:23 PM
#488
Scooby Senior
well, they won't be able to blame the EU any more, so they will need a new excuse!
24 November 2016, 08:24 PM
#489
Scooby Regular
Yes, the one thing that has surprised me (and I have been posting about our low wage precariate zero social mobility economy for the past 8 years on SN)
Is how willing people are to vote against there self interest, - I have been wrong about that
To think that May, Fox, IDS et al have the working mans interests at heart is fantasy
Is how willing people are to vote against there self interest, - I have been wrong about that
To think that May, Fox, IDS et al have the working mans interests at heart is fantasy
I voted against my financial self interest by voting (reluctantly) to leave. But I did that with my eyes wide open.
Long time, I hope you are well btw.
Last edited by Dingdongler; 24 November 2016 at 08:27 PM.
24 November 2016, 10:05 PM
#490
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Are you not 2nd generation immigrant Dingdongler , or am I mistaken
Welcome back , don't worry Tdw or what ever his name was , absent
What were your reasons ?
Welcome back , don't worry Tdw or what ever his name was , absent
What were your reasons ?
24 November 2016, 10:29 PM
#491
Scooby Regular
Hi mate
Yes indeed, second generation immigrant. From my experience pl enty of second gen immigrants voted to leave.
Btw, I had no real problem with TDW, he was harmless and definitely was never rude. Tbh, I enjoyed my banter with him and he actually inspired me to read some stuff that I wouldn't have normally read.
Anyway, hope you are well.
24 November 2016, 10:55 PM
#492
24 November 2016, 11:04 PM
#493
Scooby Regular
the majority who voted, voted out - you always get the none voters, but by definition they have no say!!
I think it is sad that people did not vote, but imo it is a redundant argument
we elect parliaments all the time with a pathetic share of the actual vote
but I do agree referendums are generally a bad idea, and it was a badly drafted bill
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 24 November 2016 at 11:08 PM.
24 November 2016, 11:25 PM
#494
Scooby Regular
25 November 2016, 04:59 AM
#495
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You have to consult a red top for some good news
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...Daily-Politics
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...Daily-Politics
25 November 2016, 06:58 AM
#496
Scooby Senior
yeah, I don't buy this though SW
the majority who voted, voted out - you always get the none voters, but by definition they have no say!!
I think it is sad that people did not vote, but imo it is a redundant argument
we elect parliaments all the time with a pathetic share of the actual vote
but I do agree referendums are generally a bad idea, and it was a badly drafted bill
the majority who voted, voted out - you always get the none voters, but by definition they have no say!!
I think it is sad that people did not vote, but imo it is a redundant argument
we elect parliaments all the time with a pathetic share of the actual vote
but I do agree referendums are generally a bad idea, and it was a badly drafted bill
But the argument of people who can't or didn't vote is wrong. Its the democratic process that only the votes placed count and in that case Brexit won fairly!
Although the majority is extremely small, the vote was very close and could quite easily have gone the other way, so the Brexiteers "the Majority" argument is also quite weak on a non binding referendum.
Referendums are generally a bad thing as they split opinion quite decisively and unless there is a clear majority the results will always be contested!
I think the government should take the most resposible action and do whats best for the country given there isn't a clear majority one way or another and the great regret that many brexiteers have shown post vote and that the vote is anyway non binding. Brexit means Brexit is a load of bollocks and just blindly going ahead wth it is irrisponsible. If they really look at it - cross party - and decide Brexit is really the best option, then fair enough, but they really need to consider it properly rather than just blindly following the very slighlty preferential "will of the people"!
25 November 2016, 07:28 AM
#497
'Considered the economics' are these the economics it's openly admitted were exxageratted or down played depending on who you were listening to?.
You chose to believe one set of figures, you're still listening to the same bile and basing an opinion on it.
You're not open minded enough to consider that an informed opinion was based on something other than what's on a website or in a paper.
For gods sake, one of the people berating brexiteers (ditch) on here has been bleating for years that the media is hoodwinking you to hide you from the real truth.
Start from the beginning of this thread. Remain are the name callers, each thing a brexit voter says is pounced upon. The numbers are about 5 remain to every one brexiteer. The entire remain argument is that the brexit voters 'aren't as clever as I am' when the obvious truth is that the remain voter is just financially better off than the average brexit voter.
And now, just when you think remain can't get any lower dpb pulls out the race card.
The people on the street aren't panicking. Only people with money are.
You chose to believe one set of figures, you're still listening to the same bile and basing an opinion on it.
You're not open minded enough to consider that an informed opinion was based on something other than what's on a website or in a paper.
For gods sake, one of the people berating brexiteers (ditch) on here has been bleating for years that the media is hoodwinking you to hide you from the real truth.
Start from the beginning of this thread. Remain are the name callers, each thing a brexit voter says is pounced upon. The numbers are about 5 remain to every one brexiteer. The entire remain argument is that the brexit voters 'aren't as clever as I am' when the obvious truth is that the remain voter is just financially better off than the average brexit voter.
And now, just when you think remain can't get any lower dpb pulls out the race card.
The people on the street aren't panicking. Only people with money are.
You reap what you sow.
25 November 2016, 07:56 AM
#498
Scooby Regular
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No, I don't agree that Brexit was a vote from the poor at all. I think Brexiteers and Remainers alike span the class divides, although possibly their reasoning may differ.
They is a very big assumption to make, but yes, I would probably now consider myself middle class! Although after I left school at 16, my first job was stapling cardboard boxes together. I then did a stint packing beetroot and raddishes (still can't eat either!) at a local producer - you know, the sort of jobs that Brits won't do any more! I then got a lucky break with an Electrical apprenticeship and worked on the shop floor building wiring looms. I then blagged my way into a software job and after I got a bit of experience I set up my own company and spent the last 20 years as a software consultant in Germany - You know, being one of those immigrants taking "our" jobs and sending the money back home!
So yeah, I'm doing alright for myself now, but I wasn't born with a silver spoon, I've roughed it at the bottom and I've climbed the ladder as it were, but I have as much respect for anyone wherever they're from. Nobody is better or above anyone else, rich or poor, educated or uneducated and regardless of nationality!
As for my vote - you're also right, I didn't vote! Or more specifically I couldn't vote! The previous Labour government introduced a law that prevented ex-pats voting if they have lived out of the country for more than 10 years! The current conservative government promised in their manifesto that they would repeal this law *BEFORE* the Brexit vote in 2017! They broke their manifesto promise, didn't repeal the law, held the referendum early and so I wasn't eligible to vote even though it probably directly affects my life more than most! If you think you're angry, immagine how I feel!
As I said, I don't see the way you voted as a class divide and you really need to get over this! I truly sympathise with you're situation, but please don't think the whole Brexit argument is a class war, there are plenty of rich people voted for Brexit as there are plenty of poor people who voted for remain!
What I am saying is the rich people won't be affected by Brexit. The middle class may have the tighten their belts a little. But as is usually the case with Convservative politics, the poor are going to get poorer and that is what really saddens me!
Believe it or not, I actually think the Brexit could work for the UK in the very, VERY, long term! Maybe 60 to 80 years from now when we have some reasonable trade deals taking effect, but thats all relying on the fact that the current government will lay the right foundations (I don't trust then to even get this bit right!), then successive governments making the right descissions at the right time and then a whole lot of luck with the remaining global ecconomy that is out of our hands! The thing is, it might work, if we're lucky, but its one hell of a risk and its going to leave the next generation and their kids worse off! Its just not a risk that I feel is worth taking!
I also get the anger at the current pollitical class! I want to kick them up the **** too and I really respect what the Americans have done in the US, because that really has kicked the politicians up the ****, its just a shame they did it with an biggoted billionaire! But the Brexit vote hasn't worked as a protest vote - for one its what the majority of the Conservatives wanted and nothing has really changed - its still the same old polititions running the country and pretending they're listening yet carrying on as usual with their own agendas and ignoring the what the people really want!
Yes, the Brexit side won the referendum, but its been said again and again since the day after the vote when all the lies were revealed, that if they held the vote again it would be a clear vote for remain. After all, this referendum was never because the people wanted it, it was because of conservative infighting because they couldn't win a majority because UKIP were stealing their votes!
The people want political change - I want political change! We want the government to start listening to our problems and concerns more and Brexit was an attempt by the people to get the government to listen, but it hasn't worked, and they're still not listening! "Brexit means Brexit!" - bollocks, Brexit mean shut the **** up and start listening to what we really want!
Sure the £8bn is a lot of money and it could help out a lot of things. But its not a simple as "how many schools I could build with £8bn" and in the grand scheme of things the problems in the UK are much, much bigger and £8bn a year will barely scratch the surface! When I left the UK almost 20 years ago, I knew there were problems in the UK and just assumed this was the way of the world, but when I saw how other countries don't have the same problems and do invest in their infrastructure, healthcase, schools etc. then I realised it was a UK problem.
I have listed very carefully to all the Brexit arguements, and I do get where people are coming from and why they're angry. Sadly the media and the likes of UKIP and even the government have all tried to divert the failings in the UK on the EU, but quite simply the EU is not responsible for all the problems, if any! Yes, the EU is not perfect, it certainly wastes a lot of money, but generally it has done a lot of good...
Improved working rights
Improved consumer rights
Freedom of movement
Tariff free trading/shopping
Regional investments boosting rural economies
The Euro and open borders are great for consumers and travellers (although admittably less beneficial for Island nations where you can't just pop across the border!)
Europe wide emmergency health cover
...just a few of the things that have helped to make the UK a richer country over the past 40 years! Sadly the Thatcherite government created a UK where the riches from EU membership were creamed off into corporate governance pockets reather than inwardly investing to create a better infrastructures.
The EU is simply not to blame for all the problems and leaving is not the golden ticket that's going to solve everything! Yes, its time for change, but leaving Europe is not the change we need!
They is a very big assumption to make, but yes, I would probably now consider myself middle class! Although after I left school at 16, my first job was stapling cardboard boxes together. I then did a stint packing beetroot and raddishes (still can't eat either!) at a local producer - you know, the sort of jobs that Brits won't do any more! I then got a lucky break with an Electrical apprenticeship and worked on the shop floor building wiring looms. I then blagged my way into a software job and after I got a bit of experience I set up my own company and spent the last 20 years as a software consultant in Germany - You know, being one of those immigrants taking "our" jobs and sending the money back home!
So yeah, I'm doing alright for myself now, but I wasn't born with a silver spoon, I've roughed it at the bottom and I've climbed the ladder as it were, but I have as much respect for anyone wherever they're from. Nobody is better or above anyone else, rich or poor, educated or uneducated and regardless of nationality!
As for my vote - you're also right, I didn't vote! Or more specifically I couldn't vote! The previous Labour government introduced a law that prevented ex-pats voting if they have lived out of the country for more than 10 years! The current conservative government promised in their manifesto that they would repeal this law *BEFORE* the Brexit vote in 2017! They broke their manifesto promise, didn't repeal the law, held the referendum early and so I wasn't eligible to vote even though it probably directly affects my life more than most! If you think you're angry, immagine how I feel!
As I said, I don't see the way you voted as a class divide and you really need to get over this! I truly sympathise with you're situation, but please don't think the whole Brexit argument is a class war, there are plenty of rich people voted for Brexit as there are plenty of poor people who voted for remain!
What I am saying is the rich people won't be affected by Brexit. The middle class may have the tighten their belts a little. But as is usually the case with Convservative politics, the poor are going to get poorer and that is what really saddens me!
Believe it or not, I actually think the Brexit could work for the UK in the very, VERY, long term! Maybe 60 to 80 years from now when we have some reasonable trade deals taking effect, but thats all relying on the fact that the current government will lay the right foundations (I don't trust then to even get this bit right!), then successive governments making the right descissions at the right time and then a whole lot of luck with the remaining global ecconomy that is out of our hands! The thing is, it might work, if we're lucky, but its one hell of a risk and its going to leave the next generation and their kids worse off! Its just not a risk that I feel is worth taking!
I also get the anger at the current pollitical class! I want to kick them up the **** too and I really respect what the Americans have done in the US, because that really has kicked the politicians up the ****, its just a shame they did it with an biggoted billionaire! But the Brexit vote hasn't worked as a protest vote - for one its what the majority of the Conservatives wanted and nothing has really changed - its still the same old polititions running the country and pretending they're listening yet carrying on as usual with their own agendas and ignoring the what the people really want!
Yes, the Brexit side won the referendum, but its been said again and again since the day after the vote when all the lies were revealed, that if they held the vote again it would be a clear vote for remain. After all, this referendum was never because the people wanted it, it was because of conservative infighting because they couldn't win a majority because UKIP were stealing their votes!
The people want political change - I want political change! We want the government to start listening to our problems and concerns more and Brexit was an attempt by the people to get the government to listen, but it hasn't worked, and they're still not listening! "Brexit means Brexit!" - bollocks, Brexit mean shut the **** up and start listening to what we really want!
Sure the £8bn is a lot of money and it could help out a lot of things. But its not a simple as "how many schools I could build with £8bn" and in the grand scheme of things the problems in the UK are much, much bigger and £8bn a year will barely scratch the surface! When I left the UK almost 20 years ago, I knew there were problems in the UK and just assumed this was the way of the world, but when I saw how other countries don't have the same problems and do invest in their infrastructure, healthcase, schools etc. then I realised it was a UK problem.
I have listed very carefully to all the Brexit arguements, and I do get where people are coming from and why they're angry. Sadly the media and the likes of UKIP and even the government have all tried to divert the failings in the UK on the EU, but quite simply the EU is not responsible for all the problems, if any! Yes, the EU is not perfect, it certainly wastes a lot of money, but generally it has done a lot of good...
Improved working rights
Improved consumer rights
Freedom of movement
Tariff free trading/shopping
Regional investments boosting rural economies
The Euro and open borders are great for consumers and travellers (although admittably less beneficial for Island nations where you can't just pop across the border!)
Europe wide emmergency health cover
...just a few of the things that have helped to make the UK a richer country over the past 40 years! Sadly the Thatcherite government created a UK where the riches from EU membership were creamed off into corporate governance pockets reather than inwardly investing to create a better infrastructures.
The EU is simply not to blame for all the problems and leaving is not the golden ticket that's going to solve everything! Yes, its time for change, but leaving Europe is not the change we need!
25 November 2016, 09:46 AM
#500
The pound has fallen, everything will become more expensive, inflation and the cost of living is set to rise, how is that good for the working classes? Your opening argument to this thread centers around the UK paying too much into the EU and immigration. But post Brexit, the EU will still be the UK's largest market, the UK will still be paying into the EU to trade and export of goods and services will still have to conform to EU legislation, only now the UK will no longer have a say on those rules. We may have more controlled immigration, but we will still have migrants coming from the EU and from the rest of the world to work here, but also UK's border check in Calais will now likely move back into the UK. You also stated that the EU pays businesses to relocate from the UK into Europe. Well, unless it's escaped you, since the referendum, many businesses have or will be making contingency plans to move out of the UK. The Government recently had to give Nissan "special assurances" to ensure they continued building cars in the UK thereby safeguarding 7000 jobs.
This is some of what the UK is witness to at the moment. Granted this could be just the storm before the calm, but what compelling argument do you have for leaving the EU? All you've brought so far are the perceived negativity of being within the EU, nothing of substance with regards to the benefits we will get for being outside of the EU. We get the the £8bn, we get more control of immigration, what else is there or is that it? Because it certainly wasn't a vote about working class voting against the middle class and/or political elite since the voting was mixed right across the class spectrum.
25 November 2016, 10:44 AM
#501
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You have to consult a red top for some good news
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...Daily-Politics
http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...Daily-Politics
So, if we're generous, and say that 70% of the trade deals we negotiate are as good as we have with the EU, then overall, our trading position will be worse.
25 November 2016, 11:11 AM
#503
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No, I don't agree that Brexit was a vote from the poor at all. I think Brexiteers and Remainers alike span the class divides, although possibly their reasoning may differ.
They is a very big assumption to make, but yes, I would probably now consider myself middle class! Although after I left school at 16, my first job was stapling cardboard boxes together. I then did a stint packing beetroot and raddishes (still can't eat either!) at a local producer - you know, the sort of jobs that Brits won't do any more! I then got a lucky break with an Electrical apprenticeship and worked on the shop floor building wiring looms. I then blagged my way into a software job and after I got a bit of experience I set up my own company and spent the last 20 years as a software consultant in Germany - You know, being one of those immigrants taking "our" jobs and sending the money back home!
So yeah, I'm doing alright for myself now, but I wasn't born with a silver spoon, I've roughed it at the bottom and I've climbed the ladder as it were, but I have as much respect for anyone wherever they're from. Nobody is better or above anyone else, rich or poor, educated or uneducated and regardless of nationality!
As for my vote - you're also right, I didn't vote! Or more specifically I couldn't vote! The previous Labour government introduced a law that prevented ex-pats voting if they have lived out of the country for more than 10 years! The current conservative government promised in their manifesto that they would repeal this law *BEFORE* the Brexit vote in 2017! They broke their manifesto promise, didn't repeal the law, held the referendum early and so I wasn't eligible to vote even though it probably directly affects my life more than most! If you think you're angry, immagine how I feel!
As I said, I don't see the way you voted as a class divide and you really need to get over this! I truly sympathise with you're situation, but please don't think the whole Brexit argument is a class war, there are plenty of rich people voted for Brexit as there are plenty of poor people who voted for remain!
What I am saying is the rich people won't be affected by Brexit. The middle class may have the tighten their belts a little. But as is usually the case with Convservative politics, the poor are going to get poorer and that is what really saddens me!
Believe it or not, I actually think the Brexit could work for the UK in the very, VERY, long term! Maybe 60 to 80 years from now when we have some reasonable trade deals taking effect, but thats all relying on the fact that the current government will lay the right foundations (I don't trust then to even get this bit right!), then successive governments making the right descissions at the right time and then a whole lot of luck with the remaining global ecconomy that is out of our hands! The thing is, it might work, if we're lucky, but its one hell of a risk and its going to leave the next generation and their kids worse off! Its just not a risk that I feel is worth taking!
I also get the anger at the current pollitical class! I want to kick them up the **** too and I really respect what the Americans have done in the US, because that really has kicked the politicians up the ****, its just a shame they did it with an biggoted billionaire! But the Brexit vote hasn't worked as a protest vote - for one its what the majority of the Conservatives wanted and nothing has really changed - its still the same old polititions running the country and pretending they're listening yet carrying on as usual with their own agendas and ignoring the what the people really want!
Yes, the Brexit side won the referendum, but its been said again and again since the day after the vote when all the lies were revealed, that if they held the vote again it would be a clear vote for remain. After all, this referendum was never because the people wanted it, it was because of conservative infighting because they couldn't win a majority because UKIP were stealing their votes!
The people want political change - I want political change! We want the government to start listening to our problems and concerns more and Brexit was an attempt by the people to get the government to listen, but it hasn't worked, and they're still not listening! "Brexit means Brexit!" - bollocks, Brexit mean shut the **** up and start listening to what we really want!
Sure the £8bn is a lot of money and it could help out a lot of things. But its not a simple as "how many schools I could build with £8bn" and in the grand scheme of things the problems in the UK are much, much bigger and £8bn a year will barely scratch the surface! When I left the UK almost 20 years ago, I knew there were problems in the UK and just assumed this was the way of the world, but when I saw how other countries don't have the same problems and do invest in their infrastructure, healthcase, schools etc. then I realised it was a UK problem.
I have listed very carefully to all the Brexit arguements, and I do get where people are coming from and why they're angry. Sadly the media and the likes of UKIP and even the government have all tried to divert the failings in the UK on the EU, but quite simply the EU is not responsible for all the problems, if any! Yes, the EU is not perfect, it certainly wastes a lot of money, but generally it has done a lot of good...
Improved working rights
Improved consumer rights
Freedom of movement
Tariff free trading/shopping
Regional investments boosting rural economies
The Euro and open borders are great for consumers and travellers (although admittably less beneficial for Island nations where you can't just pop across the border!)
Europe wide emmergency health cover
...just a few of the things that have helped to make the UK a richer country over the past 40 years! Sadly the Thatcherite government created a UK where the riches from EU membership were creamed off into corporate governance pockets reather than inwardly investing to create a better infrastructures.
The EU is simply not to blame for all the problems and leaving is not the golden ticket that's going to solve everything! Yes, its time for change, but leaving Europe is not the change we need!
They is a very big assumption to make, but yes, I would probably now consider myself middle class! Although after I left school at 16, my first job was stapling cardboard boxes together. I then did a stint packing beetroot and raddishes (still can't eat either!) at a local producer - you know, the sort of jobs that Brits won't do any more! I then got a lucky break with an Electrical apprenticeship and worked on the shop floor building wiring looms. I then blagged my way into a software job and after I got a bit of experience I set up my own company and spent the last 20 years as a software consultant in Germany - You know, being one of those immigrants taking "our" jobs and sending the money back home!
So yeah, I'm doing alright for myself now, but I wasn't born with a silver spoon, I've roughed it at the bottom and I've climbed the ladder as it were, but I have as much respect for anyone wherever they're from. Nobody is better or above anyone else, rich or poor, educated or uneducated and regardless of nationality!
As for my vote - you're also right, I didn't vote! Or more specifically I couldn't vote! The previous Labour government introduced a law that prevented ex-pats voting if they have lived out of the country for more than 10 years! The current conservative government promised in their manifesto that they would repeal this law *BEFORE* the Brexit vote in 2017! They broke their manifesto promise, didn't repeal the law, held the referendum early and so I wasn't eligible to vote even though it probably directly affects my life more than most! If you think you're angry, immagine how I feel!
As I said, I don't see the way you voted as a class divide and you really need to get over this! I truly sympathise with you're situation, but please don't think the whole Brexit argument is a class war, there are plenty of rich people voted for Brexit as there are plenty of poor people who voted for remain!
What I am saying is the rich people won't be affected by Brexit. The middle class may have the tighten their belts a little. But as is usually the case with Convservative politics, the poor are going to get poorer and that is what really saddens me!
Believe it or not, I actually think the Brexit could work for the UK in the very, VERY, long term! Maybe 60 to 80 years from now when we have some reasonable trade deals taking effect, but thats all relying on the fact that the current government will lay the right foundations (I don't trust then to even get this bit right!), then successive governments making the right descissions at the right time and then a whole lot of luck with the remaining global ecconomy that is out of our hands! The thing is, it might work, if we're lucky, but its one hell of a risk and its going to leave the next generation and their kids worse off! Its just not a risk that I feel is worth taking!
I also get the anger at the current pollitical class! I want to kick them up the **** too and I really respect what the Americans have done in the US, because that really has kicked the politicians up the ****, its just a shame they did it with an biggoted billionaire! But the Brexit vote hasn't worked as a protest vote - for one its what the majority of the Conservatives wanted and nothing has really changed - its still the same old polititions running the country and pretending they're listening yet carrying on as usual with their own agendas and ignoring the what the people really want!
Yes, the Brexit side won the referendum, but its been said again and again since the day after the vote when all the lies were revealed, that if they held the vote again it would be a clear vote for remain. After all, this referendum was never because the people wanted it, it was because of conservative infighting because they couldn't win a majority because UKIP were stealing their votes!
The people want political change - I want political change! We want the government to start listening to our problems and concerns more and Brexit was an attempt by the people to get the government to listen, but it hasn't worked, and they're still not listening! "Brexit means Brexit!" - bollocks, Brexit mean shut the **** up and start listening to what we really want!
Sure the £8bn is a lot of money and it could help out a lot of things. But its not a simple as "how many schools I could build with £8bn" and in the grand scheme of things the problems in the UK are much, much bigger and £8bn a year will barely scratch the surface! When I left the UK almost 20 years ago, I knew there were problems in the UK and just assumed this was the way of the world, but when I saw how other countries don't have the same problems and do invest in their infrastructure, healthcase, schools etc. then I realised it was a UK problem.
I have listed very carefully to all the Brexit arguements, and I do get where people are coming from and why they're angry. Sadly the media and the likes of UKIP and even the government have all tried to divert the failings in the UK on the EU, but quite simply the EU is not responsible for all the problems, if any! Yes, the EU is not perfect, it certainly wastes a lot of money, but generally it has done a lot of good...
Improved working rights
Improved consumer rights
Freedom of movement
Tariff free trading/shopping
Regional investments boosting rural economies
The Euro and open borders are great for consumers and travellers (although admittably less beneficial for Island nations where you can't just pop across the border!)
Europe wide emmergency health cover
...just a few of the things that have helped to make the UK a richer country over the past 40 years! Sadly the Thatcherite government created a UK where the riches from EU membership were creamed off into corporate governance pockets reather than inwardly investing to create a better infrastructures.
The EU is simply not to blame for all the problems and leaving is not the golden ticket that's going to solve everything! Yes, its time for change, but leaving Europe is not the change we need!
I highlighted the bits that stick out, in relation to this 'class' argument that has gone on here, but your whole post and all the posts in this thread make most sense.
Must give you a credit that this post of yours has nullified all that 'class' argument with the egotistical I-this and You-that prim and proper!
Fair do's, they did fill pages and pages and pages with some utter tedious and repetitive shyte on this thread! Waste of time for all parties involved in that nonsense 'class' argument exchange and ignoring the reality of Brexit. Well done for putting it as straight.
25 November 2016, 11:52 AM
#506
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Yes, I got your point. My question is what data source will you accept as independent? Your answer can't possibly be "none" as this would mean you'd be unable to function affectively in society. If you can tell me or others what sources you're not paranoid about, we can try to show you stats from it.
25 November 2016, 11:58 AM
#507
They all say business has dropped off markedly since the referendum, as people are spending less due to uncertainty for the future. The damage is already being done.
People are spending less? Not according to businesses across the UK, they aren't.
But High Streets are dying, no doubt about that. Welcome to the 21st century.
25 November 2016, 11:58 AM
#508
'There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.'
There we are; Donald Rumsfeld's slightly convoluted explanation of why statistics and data and predictions based on them so often go astray.
There we are; Donald Rumsfeld's slightly convoluted explanation of why statistics and data and predictions based on them so often go astray.
25 November 2016, 11:59 AM
#509
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Yes, I got your point. My question is what data source will you accept as independent? Your answer can't possibly be "none" as this would mean you'd be unable to function affectively in society. If you can tell me or others what sources you're not paranoid about, we can try to show you stats from it.
Does beg your very reasonable question.