So Brexit seems to be a good thing then.
24 November 2016, 12:42 PM
#451
Scooby Senior
Look, Turkey is joining the EU!
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38090121
...oh wait, no, that was never going to happen was it!
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38090121
...oh wait, no, that was never going to happen was it!
24 November 2016, 12:44 PM
#452
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Type 25. Build No.34
Posts: 8,222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Look, Turkey is joining the EU!
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38090121
...oh wait, no, that was never going to happen was it!
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38090121
...oh wait, no, that was never going to happen was it!
The whole Turkey issue was the biggest lie of all during the referendum
24 November 2016, 12:44 PM
#453
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (41)
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: in the woods...........555 Wagon Sqn
Posts: 13,347
Received 55 Likes
on
42 Posts
Look, Turkey is joining the EU!
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38090121
...oh wait, no, that was never going to happen was it!
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38090121
...oh wait, no, that was never going to happen was it!
Doesn't that depend on how many Bimmers and Mercs they buy?
24 November 2016, 12:55 PM
#454
Scooby Senior
24 November 2016, 01:02 PM
#458
Scooby Regular
"But national debt by the end of parliament in 2020 will have soared to nearly £2trillion, with the middle classes hit with tax hikes on work benefits and insurance policies.
And the Office for Budget Responsibility said that – five months to the day after the Brexit vote – the decision to leave the EU would force almost £60billion of extra borrowing by 2020."
24 November 2016, 01:06 PM
#459
Scooby Senior
Not much in there about how yesterdays announcements are set to hit the poorest the hardest!
24 November 2016, 01:54 PM
#461
Titanic captain: "Look! See that iceberg ahead? Well, we haven't hit it! Great news!"
Crew: "WTF??"
24 November 2016, 02:51 PM
#464
Why don't you look at the evidence? It's not just about the level of investment we put in compared to other countries. You say we cannot grow in the long term to fit with in the EU ideology, what evidence do you have for this? The evidence says otherwise; the UK has seen massive growth since joining the single market many decades ago. How much do you think it will cost UK businesses in leaving the single market? So far just the thought of it has resulted a cost to the UK economy many times the £8bn you think the UK will save.
Keep your tunnel vision and believe the bile you are being forcefed.
It's boring.
24 November 2016, 02:58 PM
#465
Its not an EU problem at all, its 100% a UK problem! Taking 8bn from the EU membership fee may be your idea of a solution, but its definitely not the cause of the problem!
The UK spends £12.2bn a year on foreign aid! We spend £34bn a year on debt interest! There are other ways to recover much more than £8bn to finance education or whatever else you want to finance. Leaving the EU to gain £8bn a year is a pretty drastic and extremely risky way to gain, what is in the grand scheme of things, a very little amount!
You also assume that all of that £8bn is just free to spend on whatever we want. Firstly, we've created a whole new Whitehall ministry for Brexit which will no doubt suck up a vast amount of that £8bn. Then we need a whole new trade ministry to negotiate all these magic trade deals that we're going to get. There goes another massive amount. Then if we want any sort of deal with the EU, we're going to still have to contribute a membership fee, just like Norway or Switzerland do and it won't be much less than the £8bn we already contribute. So before you even start to distribute those funds elsewhere, you've already spent more than it was costing in the first place. Then there is the fact that Brexit has already cost us £220bm (see my earlier post regarding todays Autumn statement).
Then there are all these mystical trade deals. Trade deals don't happen over night, they take typically 7 to 8 years to negotiate and also cost a fortune thanks to that new Whitehall trade department. You also can't generally negotiate deals in parallel (unless you're a really huge economy like China or the EU), partly because you simply don't have the resources, and partly because the people you are negotiating with want to see the results of your other trade deals before they start their negotiations. Then there is the fact that no trade deal ever results in a fully open tariff free market like we have with the EU - The EU free trade area is totally unique amongst trade agreements and its why we need the political union of the EU to make it work! Finally, we can only really negotiate trade deals in our benefit with smaller economies than our own. With any bigger economies than ours we will always have to give more than what we're getting. Take the Swiss deal with China - China gets instant access to the Swiss market while Switzerland has to wait 10 years to gain any access to the Chinese market. In 10 years time, the Chinese may just cancel the trade agreement - just look at Trumps plan to cancel the Trans-Pacific trade deal.
You have a very simplistic view that the EU just costs lots, so simples, we leave the EU and just spend that money to fix all the problems, but nothing is ever that simple. You have to look at the big picture and then you can see that Brexit just doesn't add up! The costs are far greater than the savings and its only going to leave the poor even worse off than they already are!
The UK spends £12.2bn a year on foreign aid! We spend £34bn a year on debt interest! There are other ways to recover much more than £8bn to finance education or whatever else you want to finance. Leaving the EU to gain £8bn a year is a pretty drastic and extremely risky way to gain, what is in the grand scheme of things, a very little amount!
You also assume that all of that £8bn is just free to spend on whatever we want. Firstly, we've created a whole new Whitehall ministry for Brexit which will no doubt suck up a vast amount of that £8bn. Then we need a whole new trade ministry to negotiate all these magic trade deals that we're going to get. There goes another massive amount. Then if we want any sort of deal with the EU, we're going to still have to contribute a membership fee, just like Norway or Switzerland do and it won't be much less than the £8bn we already contribute. So before you even start to distribute those funds elsewhere, you've already spent more than it was costing in the first place. Then there is the fact that Brexit has already cost us £220bm (see my earlier post regarding todays Autumn statement).
Then there are all these mystical trade deals. Trade deals don't happen over night, they take typically 7 to 8 years to negotiate and also cost a fortune thanks to that new Whitehall trade department. You also can't generally negotiate deals in parallel (unless you're a really huge economy like China or the EU), partly because you simply don't have the resources, and partly because the people you are negotiating with want to see the results of your other trade deals before they start their negotiations. Then there is the fact that no trade deal ever results in a fully open tariff free market like we have with the EU - The EU free trade area is totally unique amongst trade agreements and its why we need the political union of the EU to make it work! Finally, we can only really negotiate trade deals in our benefit with smaller economies than our own. With any bigger economies than ours we will always have to give more than what we're getting. Take the Swiss deal with China - China gets instant access to the Swiss market while Switzerland has to wait 10 years to gain any access to the Chinese market. In 10 years time, the Chinese may just cancel the trade agreement - just look at Trumps plan to cancel the Trans-Pacific trade deal.
You have a very simplistic view that the EU just costs lots, so simples, we leave the EU and just spend that money to fix all the problems, but nothing is ever that simple. You have to look at the big picture and then you can see that Brexit just doesn't add up! The costs are far greater than the savings and its only going to leave the poor even worse off than they already are!
You don't want to consider the other side of the coin. I mean remain voters are completely incapable of seeing just how hypocritical they are.
We're going round in circles. I have my views, you have yours. The majority disagree with you. The majority don't feel they have a voice in the UK anymore and it's because of this constant berating.
24 November 2016, 03:13 PM
#466
Brexit means Brexit 
Maybe they're waiting until the poor are really suffering so they can say "Its your fault, you wanted brexit, we're just doing what you wanted!", then they will accept remaining without protest!
They say they will envoke article 50 in the spring, just long enough for the pain to set in before they U-turn!
But, knowing politicians, none of them probably have the ***** to do that!
Maybe they're waiting until the poor are really suffering so they can say "Its your fault, you wanted brexit, we're just doing what you wanted!", then they will accept remaining without protest!
They say they will envoke article 50 in the spring, just long enough for the pain to set in before they U-turn!
But, knowing politicians, none of them probably have the ***** to do that!
And as you separate yourself from that we can assume you're not, and that would explain your remain vote (if you even bothered).
Weird then that all the hot air seems to be coming from the remainers. And as posted earlier 'the brexiteers' are staying relatively quiet.
The remain spin 'experts' are cashing in on the robots watching BBC/itv news and soaking it all up. The middle classes like Ditch are panicking that they may have to dip their hand into their pockets and help with their second mortgage rather than the working class oik who works 18hr days having to pay overinflated prices to keep the toff in his x5 spazwagon.
Makes a lot of sense now. Glad to hear you see it as a class divide as well. Seems to go against what a lot of your remain chums were saying earlier.
24 November 2016, 03:20 PM
#467
Obviously you don't like to stick your neck out and actually give an opinion, instead a little sniping paragraph here and there.
24 November 2016, 03:23 PM
#468
Kwik, don't you look at people like BMWhere, Hodgy, Sad Weevil, Geezer, Jonc, Markjmd and others and think that they must be on to something? You're on the same team as Alcazar and The Trooper who, to my mind at least, seem to spend their time on this board specialising in being wrong. Lovely lads, I'm sure, but wrong about almost everything. Do alarm bells not ring? Is it like a game of poker where you're so committed to a hand that's absolutely bound to lose that you're somehow compelled to keep going? Why not just cough up, eh? You'll feel better for it.
24 November 2016, 03:25 PM
#469
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North Wales
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I doubt most of the people who voted Leave considered the economics at all, it was all a question of immigration and sovereignty.
The former I can understand, though I don't agree, the latter is simply incorrect.
24 November 2016, 03:27 PM
#470
what's fascinating is the denial, you see it alot debating CT'ers of all persuasions, from flat earther's (yes a lot of it about) to 911 twoofers and climate change "hoaxers"
the more actual facts and evidence you present the deeper they actually go
it's actually a weirdly rational position to take as they have invested so much emotional energy in their position - the "belief" becomes unshakable
the more actual facts and evidence you present the deeper they actually go
it's actually a weirdly rational position to take as they have invested so much emotional energy in their position - the "belief" becomes unshakable
24 November 2016, 03:40 PM
#471
You chose to believe one set of figures, you're still listening to the same bile and basing an opinion on it.
You're not open minded enough to consider that an informed opinion was based on something other than what's on a website or in a paper.
For gods sake, one of the people berating brexiteers (ditch) on here has been bleating for years that the media is hoodwinking you to hide you from the real truth.
Start from the beginning of this thread. Remain are the name callers, each thing a brexit voter says is pounced upon. The numbers are about 5 remain to every one brexiteer. The entire remain argument is that the brexit voters 'aren't as clever as I am' when the obvious truth is that the remain voter is just financially better off than the average brexit voter.
And now, just when you think remain can't get any lower dpb pulls out the race card.
The people on the street aren't panicking. Only people with money are.
24 November 2016, 03:44 PM
#472
I gave him the benefit of the doubt a while back as the people laughing at him were another set of *******.
I've seen through him now.
24 November 2016, 04:10 PM
#475
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North Wales
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course there were lies by both campaigns, but the vast majority of independent financial analysis says it is a bad thing.
The greatest fear, and what was preyed up on by the Leave campaign, was immigration. The economics of it is a difficult subject to get across, but appealing to the fact that we are inundated with immigrants, easy. Faceless Bureaucrats, easy, corruption, easy.
24 November 2016, 04:22 PM
#476
Start from the beginning of this thread. Remain are the name callers, each thing a brexit voter says is pounced upon. The numbers are about 5 remain to every one brexiteer. The entire remain argument is that the brexit voters 'aren't as clever as I am' when the obvious truth is that the remain voter is just financially better off than the average brexit voter.
The people on the street aren't panicking. Only people with money are.
24 November 2016, 04:25 PM
#477
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: riding the crest of a wave ...
Posts: 46,493
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
Hes content with the day dream of a more prosperous uk , with only home grown competition for ,everything
The way it was 100 years ago and Europe still had colonies
The way it was 100 years ago and Europe still had colonies
24 November 2016, 04:48 PM
#478
Scooby Regular
Of course there were lies by both campaigns, but the vast majority of independent financial analysis says it is a bad thing.
The greatest fear, and what was preyed up on by the Leave campaign, was immigration. The economics of it is a difficult subject to get across, but appealing to the fact that we are inundated with immigrants, easy. Faceless Bureaucrats, easy, corruption, easy.
The greatest fear, and what was preyed up on by the Leave campaign, was immigration. The economics of it is a difficult subject to get across, but appealing to the fact that we are inundated with immigrants, easy. Faceless Bureaucrats, easy, corruption, easy.
The real story of the campaign was that the remain camp hardly had anything to say at all
They were simply too busy trying to refute the unremitting bullsh1t from the Brexit camp
I understand the reasons for the brexiteers to try and delude themselves that both campaigns were as bad as each other
but that's just more self justifying bullsh1t
24 November 2016, 05:05 PM
#480
Scooby Senior
No, I don't agree that Brexit was a vote from the poor at all. I think Brexiteers and Remainers alike span the class divides, although possibly their reasoning may differ.
They is a very big assumption to make, but yes, I would probably now consider myself middle class! Although after I left school at 16, my first job was stapling cardboard boxes together. I then did a stint packing beetroot and raddishes (still can't eat either!) at a local producer - you know, the sort of jobs that Brits won't do any more! I then got a lucky break with an Electrical apprenticeship and worked on the shop floor building wiring looms. I then blagged my way into a software job and after I got a bit of experience I set up my own company and spent the last 20 years as a software consultant in Germany - You know, being one of those immigrants taking "our" jobs and sending the money back home!
So yeah, I'm doing alright for myself now, but I wasn't born with a silver spoon, I've roughed it at the bottom and I've climbed the ladder as it were, but I have as much respect for anyone wherever they're from. Nobody is better or above anyone else, rich or poor, educated or uneducated and regardless of nationality!
As for my vote - you're also right, I didn't vote! Or more specifically I couldn't vote! The previous Labour government introduced a law that prevented ex-pats voting if they have lived out of the country for more than 10 years! The current conservative government promised in their manifesto that they would repeal this law *BEFORE* the Brexit vote in 2017! They broke their manifesto promise, didn't repeal the law, held the referendum early and so I wasn't eligible to vote even though it probably directly affects my life more than most! If you think you're angry, immagine how I feel!
As I said, I don't see the way you voted as a class divide and you really need to get over this! I truly sympathise with you're situation, but please don't think the whole Brexit argument is a class war, there are plenty of rich people voted for Brexit as there are plenty of poor people who voted for remain!
What I am saying is the rich people won't be affected by Brexit. The middle class may have the tighten their belts a little. But as is usually the case with Convservative politics, the poor are going to get poorer and that is what really saddens me!
Believe it or not, I actually think the Brexit could work for the UK in the very, VERY, long term! Maybe 60 to 80 years from now when we have some reasonable trade deals taking effect, but thats all relying on the fact that the current government will lay the right foundations (I don't trust then to even get this bit right!), then successive governments making the right descissions at the right time and then a whole lot of luck with the remaining global ecconomy that is out of our hands! The thing is, it might work, if we're lucky, but its one hell of a risk and its going to leave the next generation and their kids worse off! Its just not a risk that I feel is worth taking!
I also get the anger at the current pollitical class! I want to kick them up the **** too and I really respect what the Americans have done in the US, because that really has kicked the politicians up the ****, its just a shame they did it with an biggoted billionaire! But the Brexit vote hasn't worked as a protest vote - for one its what the majority of the Conservatives wanted and nothing has really changed - its still the same old polititions running the country and pretending they're listening yet carrying on as usual with their own agendas and ignoring the what the people really want!
Yes, the Brexit side won the referendum, but its been said again and again since the day after the vote when all the lies were revealed, that if they held the vote again it would be a clear vote for remain. After all, this referendum was never because the people wanted it, it was because of conservative infighting because they couldn't win a majority because UKIP were stealing their votes!
The people want political change - I want political change! We want the government to start listening to our problems and concerns more and Brexit was an attempt by the people to get the government to listen, but it hasn't worked, and they're still not listening! "Brexit means Brexit!" - bollocks, Brexit mean shut the **** up and start listening to what we really want!
Sure the £8bn is a lot of money and it could help out a lot of things. But its not a simple as "how many schools I could build with £8bn" and in the grand scheme of things the problems in the UK are much, much bigger and £8bn a year will barely scratch the surface! When I left the UK almost 20 years ago, I knew there were problems in the UK and just assumed this was the way of the world, but when I saw how other countries don't have the same problems and do invest in their infrastructure, healthcase, schools etc. then I realised it was a UK problem.
I have listed very carefully to all the Brexit arguements, and I do get where people are coming from and why they're angry. Sadly the media and the likes of UKIP and even the government have all tried to divert the failings in the UK on the EU, but quite simply the EU is not responsible for all the problems, if any! Yes, the EU is not perfect, it certainly wastes a lot of money, but generally it has done a lot of good...
Improved working rights
Improved consumer rights
Freedom of movement
Tariff free trading/shopping
Regional investments boosting rural economies
The Euro and open borders are great for consumers and travellers (although admittably less beneficial for Island nations where you can't just pop across the border!)
Europe wide emmergency health cover
...just a few of the things that have helped to make the UK a richer country over the past 40 years! Sadly the Thatcherite government created a UK where the riches from EU membership were creamed off into corporate governance pockets reather than inwardly investing to create a better infrastructures.
The EU is simply not to blame for all the problems and leaving is not the golden ticket that's going to solve everything! Yes, its time for change, but leaving Europe is not the change we need!
So yeah, I'm doing alright for myself now, but I wasn't born with a silver spoon, I've roughed it at the bottom and I've climbed the ladder as it were, but I have as much respect for anyone wherever they're from. Nobody is better or above anyone else, rich or poor, educated or uneducated and regardless of nationality!
As for my vote - you're also right, I didn't vote! Or more specifically I couldn't vote! The previous Labour government introduced a law that prevented ex-pats voting if they have lived out of the country for more than 10 years! The current conservative government promised in their manifesto that they would repeal this law *BEFORE* the Brexit vote in 2017! They broke their manifesto promise, didn't repeal the law, held the referendum early and so I wasn't eligible to vote even though it probably directly affects my life more than most! If you think you're angry, immagine how I feel!
Weird then that all the hot air seems to be coming from the remainers. And as posted earlier 'the brexiteers' are staying relatively quiet.
The remain spin 'experts' are cashing in on the robots watching BBC/itv news and soaking it all up. The middle classes like Ditch are panicking that they may have to dip their hand into their pockets and help with their second mortgage rather than the working class oik who works 18hr days having to pay overinflated prices to keep the toff in his x5 spazwagon.
Makes a lot of sense now. Glad to hear you see it as a class divide as well. Seems to go against what a lot of your remain chums were saying earlier.
The remain spin 'experts' are cashing in on the robots watching BBC/itv news and soaking it all up. The middle classes like Ditch are panicking that they may have to dip their hand into their pockets and help with their second mortgage rather than the working class oik who works 18hr days having to pay overinflated prices to keep the toff in his x5 spazwagon.
Makes a lot of sense now. Glad to hear you see it as a class divide as well. Seems to go against what a lot of your remain chums were saying earlier.
What I am saying is the rich people won't be affected by Brexit. The middle class may have the tighten their belts a little. But as is usually the case with Convservative politics, the poor are going to get poorer and that is what really saddens me!
Believe it or not, I actually think the Brexit could work for the UK in the very, VERY, long term! Maybe 60 to 80 years from now when we have some reasonable trade deals taking effect, but thats all relying on the fact that the current government will lay the right foundations (I don't trust then to even get this bit right!), then successive governments making the right descissions at the right time and then a whole lot of luck with the remaining global ecconomy that is out of our hands! The thing is, it might work, if we're lucky, but its one hell of a risk and its going to leave the next generation and their kids worse off! Its just not a risk that I feel is worth taking!
I also get the anger at the current pollitical class! I want to kick them up the **** too and I really respect what the Americans have done in the US, because that really has kicked the politicians up the ****, its just a shame they did it with an biggoted billionaire! But the Brexit vote hasn't worked as a protest vote - for one its what the majority of the Conservatives wanted and nothing has really changed - its still the same old polititions running the country and pretending they're listening yet carrying on as usual with their own agendas and ignoring the what the people really want!
Yes, the Brexit side won the referendum, but its been said again and again since the day after the vote when all the lies were revealed, that if they held the vote again it would be a clear vote for remain. After all, this referendum was never because the people wanted it, it was because of conservative infighting because they couldn't win a majority because UKIP were stealing their votes!
The people want political change - I want political change! We want the government to start listening to our problems and concerns more and Brexit was an attempt by the people to get the government to listen, but it hasn't worked, and they're still not listening! "Brexit means Brexit!" - bollocks, Brexit mean shut the **** up and start listening to what we really want!
Sure the £8bn is a lot of money and it could help out a lot of things. But its not a simple as "how many schools I could build with £8bn" and in the grand scheme of things the problems in the UK are much, much bigger and £8bn a year will barely scratch the surface! When I left the UK almost 20 years ago, I knew there were problems in the UK and just assumed this was the way of the world, but when I saw how other countries don't have the same problems and do invest in their infrastructure, healthcase, schools etc. then I realised it was a UK problem.
I have listed very carefully to all the Brexit arguements, and I do get where people are coming from and why they're angry. Sadly the media and the likes of UKIP and even the government have all tried to divert the failings in the UK on the EU, but quite simply the EU is not responsible for all the problems, if any! Yes, the EU is not perfect, it certainly wastes a lot of money, but generally it has done a lot of good...
Improved working rights
Improved consumer rights
Freedom of movement
Tariff free trading/shopping
Regional investments boosting rural economies
The Euro and open borders are great for consumers and travellers (although admittably less beneficial for Island nations where you can't just pop across the border!)
Europe wide emmergency health cover
...just a few of the things that have helped to make the UK a richer country over the past 40 years! Sadly the Thatcherite government created a UK where the riches from EU membership were creamed off into corporate governance pockets reather than inwardly investing to create a better infrastructures.
The EU is simply not to blame for all the problems and leaving is not the golden ticket that's going to solve everything! Yes, its time for change, but leaving Europe is not the change we need!