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27 January 2017, 08:55 AM
#392
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so presumably this is legal cross border migration for the purposes of work
have you the source anyway
27 January 2017, 11:37 AM
#393
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Illegal migration into the US has been going down for a few years now, partly because the Mexican economy has been doing well.
40-50% of 'illegals' enter the US via ports of entry, therefore a wall is going to be of little use in stopping them.
Obama deported more criminal migrants than any president in history.
The wall is political prop, designed to pander to a base of voters who are being lied to, and are hopelessly ill-informed (sound familiar?)
Last edited by Martin2005; 27 January 2017 at 11:41 AM.
27 January 2017, 11:48 AM
#394
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Pete
You continually blame 'liberals' and 'progressives' for the world ills.
You don't seem to have any alternatives though, I could guess that you must mean that being illiberal and regressive would be a better approach?
You continually blame 'liberals' and 'progressives' for the world ills.
You don't seem to have any alternatives though, I could guess that you must mean that being illiberal and regressive would be a better approach?
27 January 2017, 06:45 PM
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27 January 2017, 07:17 PM
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in the old days they would have sounded like socialists
not good the old Thatcherites that they are - as she was all for downward wage competition and free trade, banking de-regulation, de-industrialisation - leading to the rise of the global elites
its a confusing world isn't it
27 January 2017, 11:47 PM
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what makes me giggle is the sudden concern for the poor down trodden worker on poverty pay and the fury at the "global elite"
in the old days they would have sounded like socialists
not good the old Thatcherites that they are - as she was all for downward wage competition and free trade, banking de-regulation, de-industrialisation - leading to the rise of the global elites
its a confusing world isn't it
in the old days they would have sounded like socialists
not good the old Thatcherites that they are - as she was all for downward wage competition and free trade, banking de-regulation, de-industrialisation - leading to the rise of the global elites
its a confusing world isn't it
They are just reactionaries. They know what they don't like, but have little idea as to what to replace things with.
You just end up with slogans, nationalism, myopia and ultimately, prejudice
27 January 2017, 11:52 PM
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I see now that Trump has signed his latest EO banning (it's called 'extreme vetting') refugees from several majority Muslim countries.
This baseless decision is truly disturbing, racism from the very top
I'm now very worried about where we're heading
This baseless decision is truly disturbing, racism from the very top
I'm now very worried about where we're heading
Last edited by Martin2005; 27 January 2017 at 11:54 PM.
28 January 2017, 12:09 PM
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But I don't need to try and educate you guys as the liberal era is over. The problem is liberal policies have massively increased Western countries debt volumes, future liabilities and introduced additional social problems and reversing these issues is going to be extremely difficult.
Last edited by Petem95; 28 January 2017 at 12:11 PM.
28 January 2017, 12:43 PM
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In a perfect world I'd be a liberal, but it's a not a perfect world and trying to force those values on others, and being totally intolerant to other peoples opinions is not the answer. Just look at people like neil_h above "if you're not a liberal you're automatically a crazy racist" - this sort of thinking just damages your cause and it's thanks to that sort of viewpoint as to why we have a huge rise in populism.
But I don't need to try and educate you guys as the liberal era is over. The problem is liberal policies have massively increased Western countries debt volumes, future liabilities and introduced additional social problems and reversing these issues is going to be extremely difficult.
But I don't need to try and educate you guys as the liberal era is over. The problem is liberal policies have massively increased Western countries debt volumes, future liabilities and introduced additional social problems and reversing these issues is going to be extremely difficult.
The alternative?
28 January 2017, 12:50 PM
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The most farcical element of this move is that Saudi Arabia's been omitted.
28 January 2017, 12:54 PM
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In a perfect world I'd be a liberal, but it's a not a perfect world and trying to force those values on others, and being totally intolerant to other peoples opinions is not the answer. Just look at people like neil_h above "if you're not a liberal you're automatically a crazy racist" - this sort of thinking just damages your cause and it's thanks to that sort of viewpoint as to why we have a huge rise in populism.
But I don't need to try and educate you guys as the liberal era is over. The problem is liberal policies have massively increased Western countries debt volumes, future liabilities and introduced additional social problems and reversing these issues is going to be extremely difficult.
But I don't need to try and educate you guys as the liberal era is over. The problem is liberal policies have massively increased Western countries debt volumes, future liabilities and introduced additional social problems and reversing these issues is going to be extremely difficult.
28 January 2017, 12:56 PM
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Pete, you seem to be claiming a victory for the alt. right. I assert that that end of the political spectrum has been given enough rope to hang itself.
Togetherness, not separation; inclusion, not exclusion; love, not hate. History will be the judge.
Togetherness, not separation; inclusion, not exclusion; love, not hate. History will be the judge.
28 January 2017, 01:12 PM
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I'm not saying there's an easy alternative, but what is key is that Western countries return to a stable financial footing. Doing this won't be easy, won't be popular and will take a long period of time.
Almost all our models are really based on post-WW2 era growth rates. Since the early 70's organic growth rates had started to slow sharply, and since then organic growth has been replaced by increased levels of government debt to compensate. Things like the end of the gold standard and fractional reserve banking and now near-zero interest rates have allowed debt levels to grow and grow. Moving forward to next steps that will be needed to stretch this out further still are moves towards digital currencies, which will then allow for negative interest rates. This is an unsuitable path however, and either we try and change it, or just go as far as we can and hit a brick wall.
Just look at the sub-prime crisis of 2007/8. Suddenly banks realise vast amounts of debt they hold is basically worthless. If we reach a stage where government debt is basically written off as worthless (which it pretty much is, but it just keeps getting rolled over, so never paid back) then the impact on the global economy would be massive. Pension funds would basically get written off, banks would go under en-masse, the knock on effects would be huge.
But frustratingly the average person is clueless on all this, many people you speak to think 'the deficit' IS the national debt for example, not the growth in it.
Once we're back on a stable footing, with sustainable debt levels, a currency backed by something tangible (return to gold standard for example), then we can help poorer countries find their feet and grow into stable and sustainable economies to support better living standards for their citizens too.
Almost all our models are really based on post-WW2 era growth rates. Since the early 70's organic growth rates had started to slow sharply, and since then organic growth has been replaced by increased levels of government debt to compensate. Things like the end of the gold standard and fractional reserve banking and now near-zero interest rates have allowed debt levels to grow and grow. Moving forward to next steps that will be needed to stretch this out further still are moves towards digital currencies, which will then allow for negative interest rates. This is an unsuitable path however, and either we try and change it, or just go as far as we can and hit a brick wall.
Just look at the sub-prime crisis of 2007/8. Suddenly banks realise vast amounts of debt they hold is basically worthless. If we reach a stage where government debt is basically written off as worthless (which it pretty much is, but it just keeps getting rolled over, so never paid back) then the impact on the global economy would be massive. Pension funds would basically get written off, banks would go under en-masse, the knock on effects would be huge.
But frustratingly the average person is clueless on all this, many people you speak to think 'the deficit' IS the national debt for example, not the growth in it.
Once we're back on a stable footing, with sustainable debt levels, a currency backed by something tangible (return to gold standard for example), then we can help poorer countries find their feet and grow into stable and sustainable economies to support better living standards for their citizens too.
28 January 2017, 01:18 PM
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28 January 2017, 02:00 PM
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America didn't lend out money to rest the world out of the goodness of their hearts though did they ? They were attempting make up a shortfall for overspending back home
Course Trumps doing something about this by massively increasing arms spending !!
Course Trumps doing something about this by massively increasing arms spending !!
28 January 2017, 02:16 PM
#407
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Almost all our models are really based on post-WW2 era growth rates. Since the early 70's organic growth rates had started to slow sharply, and since then organic growth has been replaced by increased levels of government debt to compensate. Things like the end of the gold standard and fractional reserve banking and now near-zero interest rates have allowed debt levels to grow and grow. Moving forward to next steps that will be needed to stretch this out further still are moves towards digital currencies, which will then allow for negative interest rates. This is an unsuitable path however, and either we try and change it, or just go as far as we can and hit a brick wall.
.
.
and worse the debt was used not to invest in the infrastructure but as tax cuts to the wealthy - that is why the current US infrastructure is akin to the 2=3rd world (as I pointed out on this forum many years ago)
and we did essentially the same thing
the relative stagnation of wages for the working/middle class since the 80's was masked by the liberalisation of credit (just another word for debt)
that's why our "growth" is ALWAYS dependant on consumer spending - fuelled by cheap debt
who created this banking/credit deregulation which both help create a global elite and mask our **** poor economic performance - yes Reagan/Thatcher
and laughably the brexiteers claim our growth in 2016 is something to be proud off - lol, we have just put all the spending on the corporate and personal credit card
help by the BOE cutting interest rates and injecting billons into the UK economy on the morning after the EU vote
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 28 January 2017 at 02:20 PM.
28 January 2017, 03:04 PM
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Is that the liberalisation hes talking about 
Yes the feel good factor that your house can only go up in value since well , we live in the west - we deserve a better standard living / outlook
Yes the feel good factor that your house can only go up in value since well , we live in the west - we deserve a better standard living / outlook
28 January 2017, 04:11 PM
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You see what you've done, Pete, is quite rightly chastise liberals for gratuitous use of ad. hom. and then imply that people with an opposing view to yours are unthinking druggies. I believe this is called hypocrisy, sir.
28 January 2017, 05:05 PM
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In a perfect world I'd be a liberal, but it's a not a perfect world and trying to force those values on others, and being totally intolerant to other peoples opinions is not the answer. Just look at people like neil_h above "if you're not a liberal you're automatically a crazy racist" - this sort of thinking just damages your cause and it's thanks to that sort of viewpoint as to why we have a huge rise in populism.
But I don't need to try and educate you guys as the liberal era is over. The problem is liberal policies have massively increased Western countries debt volumes, future liabilities and introduced additional social problems and reversing these issues is going to be extremely difficult.
But I don't need to try and educate you guys as the liberal era is over. The problem is liberal policies have massively increased Western countries debt volumes, future liabilities and introduced additional social problems and reversing these issues is going to be extremely difficult.
28 January 2017, 10:32 PM
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It'll be an interesting year in politics for a change.
I've spent quite a lot of time in a Muslim country in the last two years, a country where I met people from numerous other Muslim countries (the arabs like to import lesser Muslims to do their work because they are bone-idle).
Their religion has brainwashed them. Most are ultimately harmless, but who really knows which ones aren't? Therefore I am not particularly concerned with Trump's 7 country ban as it's like a shot across the bows. Certainly inconvenient for the majority who are not a risk, but the risk from the few is so high I don't care. In many ways they are all too much trouble because of that unknown.
Nice to be able to watch from the sidelines whilst the cat is put amongst the pigeons.
I've spent quite a lot of time in a Muslim country in the last two years, a country where I met people from numerous other Muslim countries (the arabs like to import lesser Muslims to do their work because they are bone-idle).
Their religion has brainwashed them. Most are ultimately harmless, but who really knows which ones aren't? Therefore I am not particularly concerned with Trump's 7 country ban as it's like a shot across the bows. Certainly inconvenient for the majority who are not a risk, but the risk from the few is so high I don't care. In many ways they are all too much trouble because of that unknown.
Nice to be able to watch from the sidelines whilst the cat is put amongst the pigeons.
29 January 2017, 12:21 AM
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It'll be an interesting year in politics for a change.
I've spent quite a lot of time in a Muslim country in the last two years, a country where I met people from numerous other Muslim countries (the arabs like to import lesser Muslims to do their work because they are bone-idle).
Their religion has brainwashed them. Most are ultimately harmless, but who really knows which ones aren't? Therefore I am not particularly concerned with Trump's 7 country ban as it's like a shot across the bows. Certainly inconvenient for the majority who are not a risk, but the risk from the few is so high I don't care. In many ways they are all too much trouble because of that unknown.
Nice to be able to watch from the sidelines whilst the cat is put amongst the pigeons.
I've spent quite a lot of time in a Muslim country in the last two years, a country where I met people from numerous other Muslim countries (the arabs like to import lesser Muslims to do their work because they are bone-idle).
Their religion has brainwashed them. Most are ultimately harmless, but who really knows which ones aren't? Therefore I am not particularly concerned with Trump's 7 country ban as it's like a shot across the bows. Certainly inconvenient for the majority who are not a risk, but the risk from the few is so high I don't care. In many ways they are all too much trouble because of that unknown.
Nice to be able to watch from the sidelines whilst the cat is put amongst the pigeons.
Totally disagree.
This is a totally cynical exploitation for political expediency
Americans are an order of magnitude more likely to be murdered by a Christian than they are by a Muslim.
None of the countries on this list have ever sent a terrorist to the US...ever!
Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan have, and yet they're not included (surprise).
Remarkably this means that Mo Farrah cannot travel to the US for the foreseeable future
Theresa May should hang her head in shame for not condemning this - I've lost all respect for her now
29 January 2017, 12:31 AM
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In a perfect world I'd be a liberal, but it's a not a perfect world and trying to force those values on others, and being totally intolerant to other peoples opinions is not the answer. Just look at people like neil_h above "if you're not a liberal you're automatically a crazy racist" - this sort of thinking just damages your cause and it's thanks to that sort of viewpoint as to why we have a huge rise in populism.
But I don't need to try and educate you guys as the liberal era is over. The problem is liberal policies have massively increased Western countries debt volumes, future liabilities and introduced additional social problems and reversing these issues is going to be extremely difficult.
But I don't need to try and educate you guys as the liberal era is over. The problem is liberal policies have massively increased Western countries debt volumes, future liabilities and introduced additional social problems and reversing these issues is going to be extremely difficult.
Utter rubbish
You cannot properly articulate why liberal values are to blame for this. You just point to issues and then magically blame them on liberalism.
We are heading in a very dangerous direction, but I'm confident that ultimately common sense will win the day.
29 January 2017, 03:29 AM
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Don't think Teresa is At All comfortable about this
Thing is we've sort been driven into Americas arms even more now we're out of Europe
Well done brexiteers , got what you wanted
Thing is we've sort been driven into Americas arms even more now we're out of Europe
Well done brexiteers , got what you wanted
29 January 2017, 05:35 AM
#418
Totally disagree.
This is a totally cynical exploitation for political expediency
Americans are an order of magnitude more likely to be murdered by a Christian than they are by a Muslim.
None of the countries on this list have ever sent a terrorist to the US...ever!
Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan have, and yet they're not included (surprise).
Remarkably this means that Mo Farrah cannot travel to the US for the foreseeable future
Theresa May should hang her head in shame for not condemning this - I've lost all respect for her now
This is a totally cynical exploitation for political expediency
Americans are an order of magnitude more likely to be murdered by a Christian than they are by a Muslim.
None of the countries on this list have ever sent a terrorist to the US...ever!
Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan have, and yet they're not included (surprise).
Remarkably this means that Mo Farrah cannot travel to the US for the foreseeable future
Theresa May should hang her head in shame for not condemning this - I've lost all respect for her now
It appears Trump has business interests with the countries he has excluded.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/donal...28-gu0ptl.html
There was always concern that there would be a conflict of interest if Trump became president- Now it seems those fears have materialised
29 January 2017, 08:41 AM
#419
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but (and in another literary reference)
"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past"
I see historical revisionism every where I look these days
anyway looking forward to watching "Denial"
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 29 January 2017 at 08:46 AM.
29 January 2017, 08:49 AM
#420
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