http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/26/po...all/index.html

Gunboat diplomacy I think you call it

 

yes, I assumed it had to be actual crossings as the figure is so high

so presumably this is legal cross border migration for the purposes of work

have you the source anyway

 

Illegal migration into the US has been going down for a few years now, partly because the Mexican economy has been doing well.


40-50% of 'illegals' enter the US via ports of entry, therefore a wall is going to be of little use in stopping them.


Obama deported more criminal migrants than any president in history.


The wall is political prop, designed to pander to a base of voters who are being lied to, and are hopelessly ill-informed (sound familiar?)

 

Pete


You continually blame 'liberals' and 'progressives' for the world ills.


You don't seem to have any alternatives though, I could guess that you must mean that being illiberal and regressive would be a better approach?

 

It's pretty much the modus operandi of the right wing/Republican/UKIP types.

 

what makes me giggle is the sudden concern for the poor down trodden worker on poverty pay and the fury at the "global elite"

in the old days they would have sounded like socialists

not good the old Thatcherites that they are - as she was all for downward wage competition and free trade, banking de-regulation, de-industrialisation - leading to the rise of the global elites

its a confusing world isn't it

 

They are just reactionaries. They know what they don't like, but have little idea as to what to replace things with.


You just end up with slogans, nationalism, myopia and ultimately, prejudice

 

I see now that Trump has signed his latest EO banning (it's called 'extreme vetting') refugees from several majority Muslim countries.


This baseless decision is truly disturbing, racism from the very top


I'm now very worried about where we're heading

 

In a perfect world I'd be a liberal, but it's a not a perfect world and trying to force those values on others, and being totally intolerant to other peoples opinions is not the answer. Just look at people like neil_h above "if you're not a liberal you're automatically a crazy racist" - this sort of thinking just damages your cause and it's thanks to that sort of viewpoint as to why we have a huge rise in populism.

But I don't need to try and educate you guys as the liberal era is over. The problem is liberal policies have massively increased Western countries debt volumes, future liabilities and introduced additional social problems and reversing these issues is going to be extremely difficult.

 

The alternative?

 

The most farcical element of this move is that Saudi Arabia's been omitted.

 

What date would you say this crazy liberalism started ?

 

Pete, you seem to be claiming a victory for the alt. right. I assert that that end of the political spectrum has been given enough rope to hang itself.

Togetherness, not separation; inclusion, not exclusion; love, not hate. History will be the judge.

 

I'm not saying there's an easy alternative, but what is key is that Western countries return to a stable financial footing. Doing this won't be easy, won't be popular and will take a long period of time.

Almost all our models are really based on post-WW2 era growth rates. Since the early 70's organic growth rates had started to slow sharply, and since then organic growth has been replaced by increased levels of government debt to compensate. Things like the end of the gold standard and fractional reserve banking and now near-zero interest rates have allowed debt levels to grow and grow. Moving forward to next steps that will be needed to stretch this out further still are moves towards digital currencies, which will then allow for negative interest rates. This is an unsuitable path however, and either we try and change it, or just go as far as we can and hit a brick wall.

Just look at the sub-prime crisis of 2007/8. Suddenly banks realise vast amounts of debt they hold is basically worthless. If we reach a stage where government debt is basically written off as worthless (which it pretty much is, but it just keeps getting rolled over, so never paid back) then the impact on the global economy would be massive. Pension funds would basically get written off, banks would go under en-masse, the knock on effects would be huge.

But frustratingly the average person is clueless on all this, many people you speak to think 'the deficit' IS the national debt for example, not the growth in it.

Once we're back on a stable footing, with sustainable debt levels, a currency backed by something tangible (return to gold standard for example), then we can help poorer countries find their feet and grow into stable and sustainable economies to support better living standards for their citizens too.

 

Yeah man, peace & love. Maybe I'm thinking about this too much and should just smoke some of what you guys are on!

 

America didn't lend out money to rest the world out of the goodness of their hearts though did they ? They were attempting make up a shortfall for overspending back home

Course Trumps doing something about this by massively increasing arms spending !!

 

and as the earlier graphs from the fed reserve clearly show the explosion of debt started in the 80's under Reagan (and thatcher)


and worse the debt was used not to invest in the infrastructure but as tax cuts to the wealthy - that is why the current US infrastructure is akin to the 2=3rd world (as I pointed out on this forum many years ago)

and we did essentially the same thing


the relative stagnation of wages for the working/middle class since the 80's was masked by the liberalisation of credit (just another word for debt)

that's why our "growth" is ALWAYS dependant on consumer spending - fuelled by cheap debt

who created this banking/credit deregulation which both help create a global elite and mask our **** poor economic performance - yes Reagan/Thatcher

and laughably the brexiteers claim our growth in 2016 is something to be proud off - lol, we have just put all the spending on the corporate and personal credit card

help by the BOE cutting interest rates and injecting billons into the UK economy on the morning after the EU vote

 

Is that the liberalisation hes talking about

Yes the feel good factor that your house can only go up in value since well , we live in the west - we deserve a better standard living / outlook

 

You see what you've done, Pete, is quite rightly chastise liberals for gratuitous use of ad. hom. and then imply that people with an opposing view to yours are unthinking druggies. I believe this is called hypocrisy, sir.

 

I would truly love to know where i said that

 

It'll be an interesting year in politics for a change.
I've spent quite a lot of time in a Muslim country in the last two years, a country where I met people from numerous other Muslim countries (the arabs like to import lesser Muslims to do their work because they are bone-idle).
Their religion has brainwashed them. Most are ultimately harmless, but who really knows which ones aren't? Therefore I am not particularly concerned with Trump's 7 country ban as it's like a shot across the bows. Certainly inconvenient for the majority who are not a risk, but the risk from the few is so high I don't care. In many ways they are all too much trouble because of that unknown.
Nice to be able to watch from the sidelines whilst the cat is put amongst the pigeons.

 

....

 

Totally disagree.


This is a totally cynical exploitation for political expediency


Americans are an order of magnitude more likely to be murdered by a Christian than they are by a Muslim.


None of the countries on this list have ever sent a terrorist to the US...ever!


Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan have, and yet they're not included (surprise).


Remarkably this means that Mo Farrah cannot travel to the US for the foreseeable future


Theresa May should hang her head in shame for not condemning this - I've lost all respect for her now

 

Utter rubbish


You cannot properly articulate why liberal values are to blame for this. You just point to issues and then magically blame them on liberalism.


We are heading in a very dangerous direction, but I'm confident that ultimately common sense will win the day.

 

Dr ed

 

Don't think Teresa is At All comfortable about this

Thing is we've sort been driven into Americas arms even more now we're out of Europe

Well done brexiteers , got what you wanted

 

Jigeruu

 

It appears Trump has business interests with the countries he has excluded.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/donal...28-gu0ptl.html

There was always concern that there would be a conflict of interest if Trump became president- Now it seems those fears have materialised

 

mmm, on would like to think so - that this year will be looked at in the same way the Battle of Borodino is (I went to the Battle of Borodino museum in Moscow on the day EU vote, and it seemed fitting then)

but (and in another literary reference)

"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past"

I see historical revisionism every where I look these days

anyway looking forward to watching "Denial"

 

they don't seem to know

we have people who voted Brexit, who where angry at our past Governments selling off of our entire infrastructure

not realising that a vote for Brexit - is more of the same, much much more of the same