View Poll Results: How will you vote in the EU referendum?
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EU Referendum
22 June 2016, 09:30 PM
#2163
Scooby Senior
The Turkish will never be allowed to join with their current political regeme! Even if they were to join, they'd be much more interested in going to Germany that already has a huge number of Turkish immigrants. So lets be honest here, the UK doesn't need to veto Turkey joining the EU, because Germany will do it for us! As stated earlier, why upset an important strategic ally in the middle east for the sake of a meaningless propaganda argument!
22 June 2016, 10:13 PM
#2167
Scooby Senior
For me, the big problem in the Leave argument is the complete lack of a plan for the future post brexit! Hope and optimism for a better future is all well and good, but blind optimism is suiscide!
The only possibilities that work for the economy would mean accepting continued EU immigtation and paying for membership of EEA or EFTA but with no voting rights. It doesn't solve the immigration problem and is essentially a worse deal than we currently have with full EU membership and the people who are voting out because of immigration will really not be happy with those solutions!
That only leaves trade deals or WTO rules which will have a huge impact on the economy. The current cost of EU member amounts to £1 in every £100 of tax revenue or 1%. To put that into context, the 2008 crash wiped 15% of the UK tax revenues. The predicted best and worst case scenarios for post brexit are between 5% and 10% fall in tax revenues. So, it doesnt' really matter if you take the £350m gross figure or the much smaller net figure, without EU, EEA or EFTA membership, then there is no money to be saved, there is only further cuts to public services!
Trade deals will take years to make. Nobody will be willing to even start trade deals until we've made an agreement about our EU exit conditions and what the UK will look like post Brexit and exactly what our relationship with the EU will be as this determines our bargening power. Currently the Leave campaign are saying the don't want to leave immediately, but actually delay leaving, so we can complete talks for a 2020 exit. So that means from Friday until 2020 will only be uncertainty for the British economy. Only then in 2020, can we start to make trade deals with the rest of the world, and if we can't offer access to the EU through EEA or EFTA membership, then our bargening chips are not worth much on the global scale. Even if we did get some half decent trade deals, it will still take up to 10 years per deal and we need to make deals with the whole world, maybe sixty or seventy in total. Whitehall simply doesn't have the capacity to negociate all those at once, and many deals will depend on other existing deals, so probably at best we could handle 6 deals at a time. In reality, you're looking at 50 to 100 years until we are on a par with what we currently have with EU membership!
In the end, for me it all boils down to a numbers game!
I don't trust what a single politician or expert or celebrity from either side of the argument says! And nobody who posts on this thread, including myself, is an expert! Its only when you look at the whole, you can start to see a trend.
One economist hasn't really got a clue. Even a dozen or so may not paint an accurate picture. But when virtually every economist all over the world is saying the same thing, then there is a very high probability they might be right.
Look at the numbers - The outstanding majority of...
British Politicians
World Leaders
Economsts
Scientists
Accademia
Secret service
Business leaders
Experts on the EU, Politics, International trade or any other relavant field
Even Celebrities and Footballers (although I wouldn't rate their opinion any higher than those on Scoobynet)
...are all saying remain! Shouting it even - REMAIN!
The only group that a majority are saying LEAVE are the right wing extremist!
The numbers paint a pretty clear picture about what is best for Britain! The only optimism I have is that the British people are not stubborn to stop and consider what they are really voting for here! Its not about the short term immigration, its about the long term future for the UK!
The only possibilities that work for the economy would mean accepting continued EU immigtation and paying for membership of EEA or EFTA but with no voting rights. It doesn't solve the immigration problem and is essentially a worse deal than we currently have with full EU membership and the people who are voting out because of immigration will really not be happy with those solutions!
That only leaves trade deals or WTO rules which will have a huge impact on the economy. The current cost of EU member amounts to £1 in every £100 of tax revenue or 1%. To put that into context, the 2008 crash wiped 15% of the UK tax revenues. The predicted best and worst case scenarios for post brexit are between 5% and 10% fall in tax revenues. So, it doesnt' really matter if you take the £350m gross figure or the much smaller net figure, without EU, EEA or EFTA membership, then there is no money to be saved, there is only further cuts to public services!
Trade deals will take years to make. Nobody will be willing to even start trade deals until we've made an agreement about our EU exit conditions and what the UK will look like post Brexit and exactly what our relationship with the EU will be as this determines our bargening power. Currently the Leave campaign are saying the don't want to leave immediately, but actually delay leaving, so we can complete talks for a 2020 exit. So that means from Friday until 2020 will only be uncertainty for the British economy. Only then in 2020, can we start to make trade deals with the rest of the world, and if we can't offer access to the EU through EEA or EFTA membership, then our bargening chips are not worth much on the global scale. Even if we did get some half decent trade deals, it will still take up to 10 years per deal and we need to make deals with the whole world, maybe sixty or seventy in total. Whitehall simply doesn't have the capacity to negociate all those at once, and many deals will depend on other existing deals, so probably at best we could handle 6 deals at a time. In reality, you're looking at 50 to 100 years until we are on a par with what we currently have with EU membership!
In the end, for me it all boils down to a numbers game!
I don't trust what a single politician or expert or celebrity from either side of the argument says! And nobody who posts on this thread, including myself, is an expert! Its only when you look at the whole, you can start to see a trend.
One economist hasn't really got a clue. Even a dozen or so may not paint an accurate picture. But when virtually every economist all over the world is saying the same thing, then there is a very high probability they might be right.
Look at the numbers - The outstanding majority of...
British Politicians
World Leaders
Economsts
Scientists
Accademia
Secret service
Business leaders
Experts on the EU, Politics, International trade or any other relavant field
Even Celebrities and Footballers (although I wouldn't rate their opinion any higher than those on Scoobynet)
...are all saying remain! Shouting it even - REMAIN!
The only group that a majority are saying LEAVE are the right wing extremist!
The numbers paint a pretty clear picture about what is best for Britain! The only optimism I have is that the British people are not stubborn to stop and consider what they are really voting for here! Its not about the short term immigration, its about the long term future for the UK!
22 June 2016, 10:17 PM
#2168
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In the context of #2166:
Seems like a very rough debate, that. That artist woman from the audience was a bit dizzy, but arrogant Julia didn't have to be that undermining to her. Paxman is also very rude to the audience. Farage would have fitted in well.
Seems like a very rough debate, that. That artist woman from the audience was a bit dizzy, but arrogant Julia didn't have to be that undermining to her. Paxman is also very rude to the audience. Farage would have fitted in well.
Last edited by Turbohot; 22 June 2016 at 10:19 PM.
22 June 2016, 10:48 PM
#2169
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What's to analyze? Noone's disputing that the institution he works for receives EU funding that will offset a portion of his salary. What would be more meaningful in terms of providing a balance of views would be to hear or read commentary from someone who's spent as long studying the law generally and the EU specifically as Dougan has, but come to the opposite conclusion with regards to the key questions of sovereignty, democratic deficit (or lack thereof), and so on. If no such person exists, it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that Dougan's analysis is in fact correct.
22 June 2016, 10:53 PM
#2170
Scooby Regular
It's a tiny minority. Does it excuse it? No. Does it make much difference? No?
The majority don't want to freeload.
I can't believe you have brought up the bananas! Do you believe everything you are fed?
As for light bulbs, the old type were horribly energy inefficient, what is wrong with getting rid of them? I neither know nor care whether we had a say or not, it was, and is, a good thing.
The NHS has been failing for years and years, nowt to do with immigrants. Successive governments have failed it. The issues are complex and not necessarily just down to money or population. Leaving will definitely not solve it. Hell, Farage and some of the Conservatives want to dismantle it even further, will you manage to blame that on immigrants too?
The majority don't want to freeload.
I can't believe you have brought up the bananas! Do you believe everything you are fed?
As for light bulbs, the old type were horribly energy inefficient, what is wrong with getting rid of them? I neither know nor care whether we had a say or not, it was, and is, a good thing.
The NHS has been failing for years and years, nowt to do with immigrants. Successive governments have failed it. The issues are complex and not necessarily just down to money or population. Leaving will definitely not solve it. Hell, Farage and some of the Conservatives want to dismantle it even further, will you manage to blame that on immigrants too?
As for light bulbs and anything else the EU dictates it's called having the choice and not being told by some foreign organisation telling me what I can and can't have. I don't want them controlling my choices and I can't wait to be rid of them. If I want a cheapo inefficient light bulb that's my bloody choice to make not some overpaid bunch of jobsworths sitting in Brussels saying no we aren't going to let you have those any more because we don't like them.
22 June 2016, 10:53 PM
#2171
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For me, the big problem in the Leave argument is the complete lack of a plan for the future post brexit! Hope and optimism for a better future is all well and good, but blind optimism is suiscide!
The only possibilities that work for the economy would mean accepting continued EU immigtation and paying for membership of EEA or EFTA but with no voting rights. It doesn't solve the immigration problem and is essentially a worse deal than we currently have with full EU membership and the people who are voting out because of immigration will really not be happy with those solutions!
That only leaves trade deals or WTO rules which will have a huge impact on the economy. The current cost of EU member amounts to £1 in every £100 of tax revenue or 1%. To put that into context, the 2008 crash wiped 15% of the UK tax revenues. The predicted best and worst case scenarios for post brexit are between 5% and 10% fall in tax revenues. So, it doesnt' really matter if you take the £350m gross figure or the much smaller net figure, without EU, EEA or EFTA membership, then there is no money to be saved, there is only further cuts to public services!
Trade deals will take years to make. Nobody will be willing to even start trade deals until we've made an agreement about our EU exit conditions and what the UK will look like post Brexit and exactly what our relationship with the EU will be as this determines our bargening power. Currently the Leave campaign are saying the don't want to leave immediately, but actually delay leaving, so we can complete talks for a 2020 exit. So that means from Friday until 2020 will only be uncertainty for the British economy. Only then in 2020, can we start to make trade deals with the rest of the world, and if we can't offer access to the EU through EEA or EFTA membership, then our bargening chips are not worth much on the global scale. Even if we did get some half decent trade deals, it will still take up to 10 years per deal and we need to make deals with the whole world, maybe sixty or seventy in total. Whitehall simply doesn't have the capacity to negociate all those at once, and many deals will depend on other existing deals, so probably at best we could handle 6 deals at a time. In reality, you're looking at 50 to 100 years until we are on a par with what we currently have with EU membership!
In the end, for me it all boils down to a numbers game!
I don't trust what a single politician or expert or celebrity from either side of the argument says! And nobody who posts on this thread, including myself, is an expert! Its only when you look at the whole, you can start to see a trend.
One economist hasn't really got a clue. Even a dozen or so may not paint an accurate picture. But when virtually every economist all over the world is saying the same thing, then there is a very high probability they might be right.
Look at the numbers - The outstanding majority of...
British Politicians
World Leaders
Economsts
Scientists
Accademia
Secret service
Business leaders
Experts on the EU, Politics, International trade or any other relavant field
Even Celebrities and Footballers (although I wouldn't rate their opinion any higher than those on Scoobynet)
...are all saying remain! Shouting it even - REMAIN!
The only group that a majority are saying LEAVE are the right wing extremist!
The numbers paint a pretty clear picture about what is best for Britain! The only optimism I have is that the British people are not stubborn to stop and consider what they are really voting for here! Its not about the short term immigration, its about the long term future for the UK!
The only possibilities that work for the economy would mean accepting continued EU immigtation and paying for membership of EEA or EFTA but with no voting rights. It doesn't solve the immigration problem and is essentially a worse deal than we currently have with full EU membership and the people who are voting out because of immigration will really not be happy with those solutions!
That only leaves trade deals or WTO rules which will have a huge impact on the economy. The current cost of EU member amounts to £1 in every £100 of tax revenue or 1%. To put that into context, the 2008 crash wiped 15% of the UK tax revenues. The predicted best and worst case scenarios for post brexit are between 5% and 10% fall in tax revenues. So, it doesnt' really matter if you take the £350m gross figure or the much smaller net figure, without EU, EEA or EFTA membership, then there is no money to be saved, there is only further cuts to public services!
Trade deals will take years to make. Nobody will be willing to even start trade deals until we've made an agreement about our EU exit conditions and what the UK will look like post Brexit and exactly what our relationship with the EU will be as this determines our bargening power. Currently the Leave campaign are saying the don't want to leave immediately, but actually delay leaving, so we can complete talks for a 2020 exit. So that means from Friday until 2020 will only be uncertainty for the British economy. Only then in 2020, can we start to make trade deals with the rest of the world, and if we can't offer access to the EU through EEA or EFTA membership, then our bargening chips are not worth much on the global scale. Even if we did get some half decent trade deals, it will still take up to 10 years per deal and we need to make deals with the whole world, maybe sixty or seventy in total. Whitehall simply doesn't have the capacity to negociate all those at once, and many deals will depend on other existing deals, so probably at best we could handle 6 deals at a time. In reality, you're looking at 50 to 100 years until we are on a par with what we currently have with EU membership!
In the end, for me it all boils down to a numbers game!
I don't trust what a single politician or expert or celebrity from either side of the argument says! And nobody who posts on this thread, including myself, is an expert! Its only when you look at the whole, you can start to see a trend.
One economist hasn't really got a clue. Even a dozen or so may not paint an accurate picture. But when virtually every economist all over the world is saying the same thing, then there is a very high probability they might be right.
Look at the numbers - The outstanding majority of...
British Politicians
World Leaders
Economsts
Scientists
Accademia
Secret service
Business leaders
Experts on the EU, Politics, International trade or any other relavant field
Even Celebrities and Footballers (although I wouldn't rate their opinion any higher than those on Scoobynet)
...are all saying remain! Shouting it even - REMAIN!
The only group that a majority are saying LEAVE are the right wing extremist!
The numbers paint a pretty clear picture about what is best for Britain! The only optimism I have is that the British people are not stubborn to stop and consider what they are really voting for here! Its not about the short term immigration, its about the long term future for the UK!
22 June 2016, 11:36 PM
#2173
Scooby Senior
Thank you! Sadly, I fear you may be right and suspect many people are too stubborn to even read it! 
But if it makes a single person stop and consider, then its worth it! 
To be honest, I'm very scared that the British public will make one of the biggest mistakes in history tomorrow on the basis on nostalgic and populistic sound bites with no real backing other than from that loveable clown Boris Johnson (who is really just a posh Tory toff in search of the top job!), an Australian megalomaniac who controls the majority of the British press and that Farage bloke who I wouldn't even trust to vote leave!
Oh well, tomorrow will be the final tell. People need to vote on what their concience tells them and whoever wins we have to accept it. Finger pointing and gloating won't help Britain in the future. Whatever the result, we have to stand together and make the most out of whatever Britiain stands for on Friday.
But if it makes a single person stop and consider, then its worth it! To be honest, I'm very scared that the British public will make one of the biggest mistakes in history tomorrow on the basis on nostalgic and populistic sound bites with no real backing other than from that loveable clown Boris Johnson (who is really just a posh Tory toff in search of the top job!), an Australian megalomaniac who controls the majority of the British press and that Farage bloke who I wouldn't even trust to vote leave!
Oh well, tomorrow will be the final tell. People need to vote on what their concience tells them and whoever wins we have to accept it. Finger pointing and gloating won't help Britain in the future. Whatever the result, we have to stand together and make the most out of whatever Britiain stands for on Friday.
22 June 2016, 11:43 PM
#2174
Scooby Regular
Yes, too true
Most people simply post and believe cut "n" pasted b0ll0x
If someone makes a claim I don't think is correct (from whatever side)
I ask for a source, if they give one I check it, if the source is wrong I find the correct source
If they won't or don't give a source I check it myself to find the source (hard sometimes as the tracking an actual claim to a source takes you through a whole host of bloggers, tweeters etc all repeating the same crap - a claim about the number of regulations regarding cabbages, actually goes back the the 30's in America)
I read it, I try and understand the context and content
And in 99.9% of the time, the claim is either wrong, a blatant lie or a gross misrepresentation
In short I doubt, I am sceptical
they are so certain - yet they can't be fvcking 4rsed to check even basic facts
Most people simply post and believe cut "n" pasted b0ll0x
If someone makes a claim I don't think is correct (from whatever side)
I ask for a source, if they give one I check it, if the source is wrong I find the correct source
If they won't or don't give a source I check it myself to find the source (hard sometimes as the tracking an actual claim to a source takes you through a whole host of bloggers, tweeters etc all repeating the same crap - a claim about the number of regulations regarding cabbages, actually goes back the the 30's in America)
I read it, I try and understand the context and content
And in 99.9% of the time, the claim is either wrong, a blatant lie or a gross misrepresentation
In short I doubt, I am sceptical
they are so certain - yet they can't be fvcking 4rsed to check even basic facts
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 22 June 2016 at 11:45 PM.
22 June 2016, 11:56 PM
#2175
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Relax lads. Result will be REMAIN with a 5-6 point majority.
Then I will really enjoy watching Boris squirm and complain - the Ronaldo of the political world.
dl
Then I will really enjoy watching Boris squirm and complain - the Ronaldo of the political world.
dl
22 June 2016, 11:59 PM
#2176
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23 June 2016, 02:59 AM
#2177
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Thank you! Sadly, I fear you may be right and suspect many people are too stubborn to even read it! But if it makes a single person stop and consider, then its worth it!
To be honest, I'm very scared that the British public will make one of the biggest mistakes in history tomorrow on the basis on nostalgic and populistic sound bites with no real backing other than from that loveable clown Boris Johnson (who is really just a posh Tory toff in search of the top job!), an Australian megalomaniac who controls the majority of the British press and that Farage bloke who I wouldn't even trust to vote leave!
Oh well, tomorrow will be the final tell. People need to vote on what their concience tells them and whoever wins we have to accept it. Finger pointing and gloating won't help Britain in the future. Whatever the result, we have to stand together and make the most out of whatever Britiain stands for on Friday.
But if it makes a single person stop and consider, then its worth it! To be honest, I'm very scared that the British public will make one of the biggest mistakes in history tomorrow on the basis on nostalgic and populistic sound bites with no real backing other than from that loveable clown Boris Johnson (who is really just a posh Tory toff in search of the top job!), an Australian megalomaniac who controls the majority of the British press and that Farage bloke who I wouldn't even trust to vote leave!
Oh well, tomorrow will be the final tell. People need to vote on what their concience tells them and whoever wins we have to accept it. Finger pointing and gloating won't help Britain in the future. Whatever the result, we have to stand together and make the most out of whatever Britiain stands for on Friday.
23 June 2016, 03:07 AM
#2178
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Yes, too true
Most people simply post and believe cut "n" pasted b0ll0x
If someone makes a claim I don't think is correct (from whatever side)
I ask for a source, if they give one I check it, if the source is wrong I find the correct source
If they won't or don't give a source I check it myself to find the source (hard sometimes as the tracking an actual claim to a source takes you through a whole host of bloggers, tweeters etc all repeating the same crap - a claim about the number of regulations regarding cabbages, actually goes back the the 30's in America)
I read it, I try and understand the context and content
And in 99.9% of the time, the claim is either wrong, a blatant lie or a gross misrepresentation
In short I doubt, I am sceptical
they are so certain - yet they can't be fvcking 4rsed to check even basic facts
Most people simply post and believe cut "n" pasted b0ll0x
If someone makes a claim I don't think is correct (from whatever side)
I ask for a source, if they give one I check it, if the source is wrong I find the correct source
If they won't or don't give a source I check it myself to find the source (hard sometimes as the tracking an actual claim to a source takes you through a whole host of bloggers, tweeters etc all repeating the same crap - a claim about the number of regulations regarding cabbages, actually goes back the the 30's in America)
I read it, I try and understand the context and content
And in 99.9% of the time, the claim is either wrong, a blatant lie or a gross misrepresentation
In short I doubt, I am sceptical
they are so certain - yet they can't be fvcking 4rsed to check even basic facts
23 June 2016, 07:53 AM
#2181
Scooby Regular
The Brexit propaganda has been largely farcical. My Facebook feed is full of it, and yet when I consider who the posters are and their track record on thinking I'm not surprised that they've been taken in. On here you have people concerned with straight bananas and lightbulbs! I mean, wow!
http://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-long-con
It examines and tries to explain the "taken in"
The focus is America, but the ideas and methodology are universal
23 June 2016, 08:12 AM
#2183
Scooby Regular
The Brexit propaganda has been largely farcical. My Facebook feed is full of it, and yet when I consider who the posters are and their track record on thinking I'm not surprised that they've been taken in. On here you have people concerned with straight bananas and lightbulbs! I mean, wow!
But that's fine you pick up on just that and ignore the other far more important issues I mentioned. Another typical example of the remain vote.
23 June 2016, 08:34 AM
#2184
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23 June 2016, 09:10 AM
#2185
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Yes, if you get time read this
http://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-long-con
It examines and tries to explain the "taken in"
The focus is America, but the ideas and methodology are universal
http://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-long-con
It examines and tries to explain the "taken in"
The focus is America, but the ideas and methodology are universal
23 June 2016, 09:17 AM
#2186
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Another snide dig. Taken out of context as well as it was an example of the utter waste of time the EU is when it spends time and money deliberating over utter rubbish and those were examples given.
But that's fine you pick up on just that and ignore the other far more important issues I mentioned. Another typical example of the remain vote.
But that's fine you pick up on just that and ignore the other far more important issues I mentioned. Another typical example of the remain vote.
23 June 2016, 09:27 AM
#2188
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Well we can agree to disagree as having lived the majority of my life in Kent and seen the huge influx of eastern europeans flooding through the county I have seen first hand the benefit tourism and nhs tourism.
As for light bulbs and anything else the EU dictates it's called having the choice and not being told by some foreign organisation telling me what I can and can't have. I don't want them controlling my choices and I can't wait to be rid of them. If I want a cheapo inefficient light bulb that's my bloody choice to make not some overpaid bunch of jobsworths sitting in Brussels saying no we aren't going to let you have those any more because we don't like them.
As for light bulbs and anything else the EU dictates it's called having the choice and not being told by some foreign organisation telling me what I can and can't have. I don't want them controlling my choices and I can't wait to be rid of them. If I want a cheapo inefficient light bulb that's my bloody choice to make not some overpaid bunch of jobsworths sitting in Brussels saying no we aren't going to let you have those any more because we don't like them.
I can see why you want choice, who wouldn't? But that really isn't about the EU. There are loads of laws or rules in place that are nothing to do with the EU that restrict your choice.
Seat belts, for example. I assume you would like to have the choice whether or not to wear one? That's a UK law, nothing to do with the EU. Why choose to regale against EU restrictions whilst accepting non EU restrictions?
That's one thing that really confused me about the leave campaign, they are glad to accept any old ****e from our government, yet it's not ok from the EU (the laws which we help design and implement as an EU member).
23 June 2016, 09:57 AM
#2190
Scooby Regular
I can see why you want choice, who wouldn't? But that really isn't about the EU. There are loads of laws or rules in place that are nothing to do with the EU that restrict your choice.
Seat belts, for example. I assume you would like to have the choice whether or not to wear one? That's a UK law, nothing to do with the EU. Why choose to regale against EU restrictions whilst accepting non EU restrictions?
That's one thing that really confused me about the leave campaign, they are glad to accept any old ****e from our government, yet it's not ok from the EU (the laws which we help design and implement as an EU member).
Seat belts, for example. I assume you would like to have the choice whether or not to wear one? That's a UK law, nothing to do with the EU. Why choose to regale against EU restrictions whilst accepting non EU restrictions?
That's one thing that really confused me about the leave campaign, they are glad to accept any old ****e from our government, yet it's not ok from the EU (the laws which we help design and implement as an EU member).