Paben

iTrader: (5)

Yes of course, even at the dreaded school once I had got used to the rules and routines. I was fortunate to have a fantastic house master and an English master who opened a whole new world of poetry and Shakespeare; superb sports facilities, and an army cadet force that ultimately sent me in an entirely unexpected direction.
So while not exactly heaven my ideas of what made a perfect world changed gradually as I grew older. But how does this relate to heaven? Is heaven a lake full of compliant fish; huge breaking waves and perfect surf; a tranquil mountain sunset?
Sitting at God's feet playing a harp for all eternity holds little appeal for most of us, and in that respect I have great sympathy with Milton's fallen angels.
But how would you describe heaven? 'Ineffable' doesn't really cut it, because that could cover indescribable horror as well as ecstasy. It's just wishful thinking otherwise.

lozgti1

Great Thread

JTaylor

Heaven for me and as I can best understand it from Scripture, is a new creation free from the corruption brought about during the Fall of Man. There would be an absence of evil: no more grief, no more hatred, no pride, a sinless world in which the saints live in harmony, where peace pervades and where love is the law.

In this life the closest I think and feel I've been to heaven was in a game reserve in South Africa and I've detailed my experience on this board before. After a staggering sunset and in the second heaven the Southern Cross burned brightly, two shooting stars tore across the inky sky. The morning brought forth a cacophony of bird song, almost deafening! The lake shimmered a silvery hue as terrapins sought out their morning feed, on the horizon a herd of elephants, led by its noble matriarch, sauntered towards the lake. They eventually joined the giraffes who'd already gathered waterside...the sense of the symbiotic, the peace, the overwhelming beauty of the scene told me this was Eden, this was heaven.

dpb

Probably slightly less heavenly for the sherpers

Turbohot

For some people, heaven and hell are here on this earth. When they gain highly elevated sensory pleasure; may it be visual, sexual or beer induced or other, they utter the word 'Heaven!'. For some people, death is a path to the ultimate heaven after which, they believe that they feel nothing- neither pleasure nor pain, because their body with their earthly sensory receptors becomes inactive for good. Replica for slow or temporary pleasure of this 'ultimate' sort is available on this earth in the form of some herbal and chemical drugs.

hodgy0_2

sounds like a scene from the Lion King

JTaylor

The circle of life...

Turbohot

Super comparison! Quality!

JTaylor

I discovered after the experience that the region is known as "the cradle of humankind". I absolutely felt as though I'd gone home and, whatever your worldview, I'd urge you to get out on safari somewhere in the area. Makes me tearful thinking about it.

hodgy0_2

yeah, I have been on Safari in Africa (Kenya)

stunning and I have always loved the ""the cradle of humankind" idea

(and the Lion King is a great film too, and with good music)

JTaylor

I actually made a call when I went to not take any photos. I wasn't with Lizzy (on the holiday, but we were together) and decided that I didn't want to see everything through a lense. Never regretted it, but would take a camera if there were to be a next time.

As you say, the fact that each and every one of us can trace our hominid ancestry back to Africa is a fabulous thing. When I think of the first humans looking skyward say 150,000 years ago and when I think of them starting to ask the big questions, it sends a shiver down my spine. When one or more of them first became self aware! Wow! To be a pioneer of conciousness! Of course then darkness came and we somehow lost our way. I believe we can, as the song goes, get back to the garden.

Turbohot

We used to have an awesome daily sunset ceremony in our Indian school where one student played an instrument while other sat in total 'Maun''. We'd be on the top of some hill to do that. One of the deepest experiences you could get, as a child. As an adult, there're so many 'touching ones' that I've lost count! This world is an amazing place, for sure. For example, seeing the Taj after 20+ years was awesome. Seeing the crystal clear Caribbean Sea from above was 'WOW!!!'. Listening to beyond-the-universe chants and lectures even took me to the most peaceful place beyond heaven!! As I stand here on this earth, the pleasure that I get when I hold my fat and furry Rubix the cat and hug him tight kicks off my serotonin release. Makes me think of that 'the centre of the centre' dialogue from Slumdog Millionaire movie.

dpb

its a world heritage site ! ,

magaliesburg

and a place for posh people go on safari

JTaylor

Never been to India - must go!

Turbohot

It's drenched in spirituality, James. You're born in it, you grow up in it and you live with and amongst it. It's the very oxygen for the people, over there.

Daughter has been away on her long travels since 3rd Jan, James. She started from Thailand and Cambodia by herself and now she's in India, on her own accord. Prior to 2014 visit of ours, I hardly took her there. She's just another typical Anglo-Indian, non-religious, JD-&-Coke drinking, fun loving Western person. Anyway, her latest pic she has sent to me is of her doing an upside down headstand in her yoga class over there. She's really enjoying it and wants to stop in India as long as she could, without any of our Indian family's pressure, before she moves on to Burma and Vietnam etc. I'm very pleased for her to experience all that.

She talked about witnessing the after-death rituals in Varanasi in 2014 and told me what it was like, for her. There was no 'ughhh', no fright, no traumatic shock. Just peace as the every bone of the body is kindled in fire or when the orphan bodies are donated to the river in the sense of 'let go'. May sound pretty gory to most here, but it's not. Not to me, anyway. I understand it.

Not everyone's cup of tea, but what is?

JTaylor

Sounds like your daughter is having some formative experiences, fair play to her and to you for empowering her. When I read descriptions of a rich cultural and spiritual heritage like yours and your daughter's I'm made acutely aware of why you are affronted by the notion that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ. It's why for so long integral thinking and theory was so appealing to me and I know it still is to you. I'm not sure how to resolve this philosophically. I've meditated on it a lot over the course of this thread. The conflict is brought about by empathising with you, my friend, but loving my Lord.

For what it's worth I'm currently sat in a KFC on a retail park in South Wales facing the prospect of going in to a store to do a review. Hell? In the background, just out of reach, are rolling hills and a forest covered mountain. Perhaps beyond, out of sight, are still waters. Who knows?

DoZZa

iTrader: (4)

Turbohot

To clarify, I don't mind at all that one considers just the Christ to be the path to the One above all. I have no problem with Christ, instead I'm a fan of his sacrificial image on the cross. You see, my late father, since I remember, had an image of Christ in his Hindu worship room as well as other images of other paths that led / lead to the One. He used to take shower after his work, put his red silk dhoti on and disappear in that shrine room to pray to all those images, in order to connect him to the nirakaar One. We were free to join him, and we did- most times. Sometimes we didn't, and carry on playing outside. There was no pressure. 'We' means my siblings. Mum usually did her prayers by herself later, but to exactly all those images. I'm with the view that any path to the One you take, as long as you're least hurtful to another living being is fine.

About the possibility of still waters beyond the forests and the hills, stilling the 'inner' helps when in doubt. One can meditate anywhere, if they like. Even in KFC.

Turbohot

Oh, forgot to say that I too empathise with you, my dear friend. I refer to my previously proposed prayers for you, for that. It doesn't mean I do not respect your leaning, just some principles of that I challenge. I'm for the wider view.

I'm the same with my own 'by birth' leaning. I slate it at places, wherever it starts talking bullsh7t. I get into the arguments with my Indian family members sometimes, but I don't stop loving them.

For example, my older sister is a hypocrite. She wakes up at 4:00am every morning to do her sacred chants to her Gods, but then treats my younger sister rough on WhatsApp. What's all that about? I slate her for that and call her 'dhongi'. Dhongi means hypocrite in Hindi. She gets annoyed with me, but still says 'good morning' to me on WhatsApp the next day.

JTaylor

One of my favourite psalms:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...23&version=KJV

JTaylor

We're all hypocrites, Swati. All of us.

Turbohot

Yes, I know. Some are more hypocrite than others, though.

Turbohot

Very nice. I remember it from a funeral.

JTaylor

Yes, the NIV rendering is probably a more accurate translation, but the KJV has a more appealing metre. The Valley of the Shadow of Death is a prominent feature of Pilgrim's Progress; you really ought to read it. x

Turbohot

I'm hugely and genuinely interested in reading The Pilgrim's Progress. I will certainly be getting a copy to read it. I don't regret not willing to inherit the rare edition what late FIL had. I didn't feel that it was my place to will, anyway. Any edition will do. I just want to read it. Sounds fascinating.

Thank you for bringing that up, James. X

JTaylor

"I have given Him my faith, and sworn my allegiance to Him; how, then, can I go back from this, and not be hanged as a traitor?"

JTaylor

I don't know the answer to this. It's not to be answered flippantly. God willing, I'll come back to it in the fullness of time.

britishbulldog

iTrader: (1)

Not been on this thread for a while, still going strong I see!

Why do u say we are all hypocrites? Are you basing that statement on yourself as you have already shown your hypocrisy in this thread, u have openly admitted you are willing to ignore the fact that sex before marriage is a sin, purely for selfish reasons, and to satisfy your own pleasures.

I would like to think I am not a hypocrite, I say what I believe and stand up for what I believe also.

How are we all hypocrites? Can u give me any examples? Not having a go just interested in how you come to that conclusion

britishbulldog

iTrader: (1)

Serious question here, the main religions in India are Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism

I freely admit I am in no way a religious scholar, but I assume that none of these religions include Jesus Christ in their teachings (correct me if that assumption is incorrect)

So as I understand it the only way to get into heaven is to be carried in on the back of Jesus Christ, based on that I assume you believe that most of the Indian population are going straight to hell, that's pretty harsh if u ask me

Also what if their religion is true and therefore your Christian beliefs are not true, I assume you won't pass their criteria for entering heaven and are therefore going straight to hell, you can't all be right after all, what makes your beliefs more valid than theirs?

There Is a simple answer and it is purely down to where you were born and nothing more, if you were born in India it's highly unlikely you would be a Christian and chances are would follow one of the other religions.

Surely you can see that is true, as I said before there are many, many religions and they cannot all be true, so many people are wasting their time on a false belief system, it's a shame really but like I said as long as you aren't doing any harm to anyone then fill your boots

JTaylor

Having a go and then claiming not to is a good example.