Scripture vs. the facts.
26 February 2016, 12:33 PM
#781
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: riding the crest of a wave ...
Posts: 46,493
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
Like Geezer, you simply don't get it. You don't have the necessary gifts to bridge the gap between science and spirituality. You're the men Polkinghorne talks about when he says that man "turned in on himself" and away from God. How are you going to present the problem of evil to bronze-age goat herders, illiterate peasants, children, anyone born before Darwin, my mum, the third world and Bristolians in a way that's accessible and can be delved in to as far as the individual's learning allows. The men in the vid' aren't explaining the how, they're explaining the why.
These men are social inadequates
Priviledged social inadequates
Last edited by dpb; 26 February 2016 at 12:45 PM.
26 February 2016, 01:34 PM
#782
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North Wales
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like Geezer, you simply don't get it. You don't have the necessary gifts to bridge the gap between science and spirituality. You're the men Polkinghorne talks about when he says that man "turned in on himself" and away from God. How are you going to present the problem of evil to bronze-age goat herders, illiterate peasants, children, anyone born before Darwin, my mum, the third world and Bristolians in a way that's accessible and can be delved in to as far as the individual's learning allows. The men in the vid' aren't explaining the how, they're explaining the why.
We get it fine, there is only science. Every single thing that man use to attribute to God or mysticism is slowly, but surely being described by science. Eventually, we will understand what consciousness is.
It's like idiots who say "it's the supernatural". If it exists, then by its very definition, it's natural.
If God did exist, he could be described scientifically.
It's the age old fall back position of religion, I have faith. Your science is wrong. Despite not having a single shred of anything to support your position except the bible.
It's like putting your fingers in your ears and going "la la la, I can't hear you".
26 February 2016, 01:48 PM
#783
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 14,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We get it fine, there is only science. Every single thing that man use to attribute to God or mysticism is slowly, but surely being described by science. Eventually, we will understand what consciousness is.
It's like idiots who say "it's the supernatural". If it exists, then by its very definition, it's natural.
If God did exist, he could be described scientifically.
It's the age old fall back position of religion, I have faith. Your science is wrong. Despite not having a single shred of anything to support your position except the bible.
It's like putting your fingers in your ears and going "la la la, I can't hear you".
It's like idiots who say "it's the supernatural". If it exists, then by its very definition, it's natural.
If God did exist, he could be described scientifically.
It's the age old fall back position of religion, I have faith. Your science is wrong. Despite not having a single shred of anything to support your position except the bible.
It's like putting your fingers in your ears and going "la la la, I can't hear you".
26 February 2016, 02:13 PM
#784
I think you and others decided that, it was never "established". If you imagine that Bulldog, who called his creator evil, were to repent and ask for forgiveness, then the Lord would forgive him and take him back. That's mercy. He was incredibly merciful to me. The people to whom He shows no mercy are those who've been given the gospel, but reject it, refuse to acknowledge their sin and maintain that position unto the grave. That's the deal. None of us deserve God's mercy, just look at the state of the world! That He sent His only Son to atone for our sins is quite amazing!
(please no parables, verses or quotes from the Bible)
26 February 2016, 03:08 PM
#786
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North Wales
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
26 February 2016, 03:14 PM
#787
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: North Wales
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sure you well know that that statement was a generalisation, but seeing as you ask, your very belief, and some of the links you have posted infer you think science is wrong.
Theistic evolution goes against science, for one. It tries to fit evolution in with religion, but it is nothing of the sort. In one of your links to a previous thread, you also said that one of the things that led you to convert was the odds of protein formation, but that leaves several stages out, so again, ignoring or denying the science.
It's like saying the eye is proof of intelligent design as nothing so useful could evolve it's too difficult.
Theistic evolution goes against science, for one. It tries to fit evolution in with religion, but it is nothing of the sort. In one of your links to a previous thread, you also said that one of the things that led you to convert was the odds of protein formation, but that leaves several stages out, so again, ignoring or denying the science.
It's like saying the eye is proof of intelligent design as nothing so useful could evolve it's too difficult.
26 February 2016, 04:14 PM
#788
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: lancashire
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is an account that isn't historically and scientifically accurate in the modern sense, but which has shaped society to such an extent that it becomes 'true'. It holds deep spiritual and sociological meaning that could could not be described as false or as fact, hence true myth. I nicked it from CS Lewis and those whom he influenced.
26 February 2016, 04:18 PM
#789
Sorry JT but do you actually read some of the bollocks you post before hitting the button?
Any sane, rational, non brain washed, human being would surely think, "what a complete load of total and utter bollocks." A true myth lol. At least it made me giggle a little bit on this very dull wet day while I am sat in my van waiting for home time.....
26 February 2016, 04:36 PM
#790
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: lancashire
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sure you well know that that statement was a generalisation, but seeing as you ask, your very belief, and some of the links you have posted infer you think science is wrong.
Theistic evolution goes against science, for one. It tries to fit evolution in with religion, but it is nothing of the sort. In one of your links to a previous thread, you also said that one of the things that led you to convert was the odds of protein formation, but that leaves several stages out, so again, ignoring or denying the science.
It's like saying the eye is proof of intelligent design as nothing so useful could evolve it's too difficult.
Theistic evolution goes against science, for one. It tries to fit evolution in with religion, but it is nothing of the sort. In one of your links to a previous thread, you also said that one of the things that led you to convert was the odds of protein formation, but that leaves several stages out, so again, ignoring or denying the science.
It's like saying the eye is proof of intelligent design as nothing so useful could evolve it's too difficult.
The human mind is incapable of understanding how truly massive the universe is, in such a truly massive place all sorts of improbable things are highly likely to occur
The problem is humans have a warped sense of self importance, we are an insignificant speck in the grand scheme of the universe, this is not easy to swallow for some and they prefer to think we are far more important than we actually are.
The sad thing for me is that the thought of a heaven waiting for you after this life leads many to not live this life to the full as they spend it preparing for the next life, Jt provided a stunning example by saying I require his prayers, what a waste of the short time we have on this earth.
He also avoided answering what would happen if I prayed for Him not to pray for me and how that would work out?
the problem is God is the answer to some very big questions but introduces a million more small questions. All stemming from the need to know the meaning of life, there is no meaning of life, you're born, you die, thats all there is to it, it happens to every living thing, some humans are just arrogant enough to think we are something special
26 February 2016, 04:50 PM
#791
Scooby Regular
but again that this is a misrepresentation of the science - the beginning of "life" was a culmination of many individual processes, it was NOT instantaneous formation of proteins
but you are right to make the general point regarding "odds/statistics" and peoples inability to understand them
if you are interested the origins of life (as opposed to Darwinian evolution by natural selection)
are explored in this short video
26 February 2016, 04:54 PM
#792
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: lancashire
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This.
Sorry JT but do you actually read some of the bollocks you post before hitting the button?
Any sane, rational, non brain washed, human being would surely think, "what a complete load of total and utter bollocks." A true myth lol. At least it made me giggle a little bit on this very dull wet day while I am sat in my van waiting for home time.....
Sorry JT but do you actually read some of the bollocks you post before hitting the button?
Any sane, rational, non brain washed, human being would surely think, "what a complete load of total and utter bollocks." A true myth lol. At least it made me giggle a little bit on this very dull wet day while I am sat in my van waiting for home time.....
The problem arises when we learn more and more and have access to all these different sources of information, then the Bible becomes non-literal and some parts are true, some are myth, as it becomes obvious that some of the things it describes cannot be true,we need to interpret it instead.
What happened to Mars, the God of war, Thor, the God of thunder. Does anyone worship them any more? There have been many many gods that humans have worshipped over the years, without fail they fall by the wayside and are replaced by the next one. If Jt were born in times gone by I'm sure he would hear Thor/Mars/insert any other God from history/horus/Neptune in his heart
As I have said the human mind is a very powerful thing and can sadly play tricks on us that we cannot over ride
26 February 2016, 05:11 PM
#793
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: lancashire
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think what Geezer is saying is that the odds on instantaneous formation of proteins may well be very very high
but again that this is a misrepresentation of the science - the beginning of "life" was a culmination of many individual processes, it was NOT instantaneous formation of proteins
but you are right to make the general point regarding "odds/statistics" and peoples inability to understand them
if you are interested the origins of life (as opposed to Darwinian evolution by natural selection)
are explored in this short video
3 - The Origin of Life Made Easy - YouTube
but again that this is a misrepresentation of the science - the beginning of "life" was a culmination of many individual processes, it was NOT instantaneous formation of proteins
but you are right to make the general point regarding "odds/statistics" and peoples inability to understand them
if you are interested the origins of life (as opposed to Darwinian evolution by natural selection)
are explored in this short video
3 - The Origin of Life Made Easy - YouTube
In a simple deck of 52 cards there are a staggering 80,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 possible combinations u can end up with from a single shuffle of the deck
When you shuffle the deck you have ended up with a 1 in 80,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance that the actual combination u ended up with would occur, but it did occur
Now that is some pretty slim odds, would that be a reason to turn to god, after all it was almost impossible!
Now ponder the odds if instead of a pack of 52 cards you had a deck of cards that contained a number of cards equal to the number of atoms in the entire universe, the number of possible outcomes would literally be impossible to write down, out of all those possible outcomes there are bound to be some strange outcomes, we are but 1 of those possible outcomes, nothing more, nothing less
26 February 2016, 07:11 PM
#794
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Berks
Posts: 4,224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting video, regarding odds I offer the following point for Jt to ponder
In a simple deck of 52 cards there are a staggering 80,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 possible combinations u can end up with from a single shuffle of the deck
When you shuffle the deck you have ended up with a 1 in 80,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance that the actual combination u ended up with would occur, but it did occur
Now that is some pretty slim odds, would that be a reason to turn to god, after all it was almost impossible!
Now ponder the odds if instead of a pack of 52 cards you had a deck of cards that contained a number of cards equal to the number of atoms in the entire universe, the number of possible outcomes would literally be impossible to write down, out of all those possible outcomes there are bound to be some strange outcomes, we are but 1 of those possible outcomes, nothing more, nothing less
In a simple deck of 52 cards there are a staggering 80,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 possible combinations u can end up with from a single shuffle of the deck
When you shuffle the deck you have ended up with a 1 in 80,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance that the actual combination u ended up with would occur, but it did occur
Now that is some pretty slim odds, would that be a reason to turn to god, after all it was almost impossible!
Now ponder the odds if instead of a pack of 52 cards you had a deck of cards that contained a number of cards equal to the number of atoms in the entire universe, the number of possible outcomes would literally be impossible to write down, out of all those possible outcomes there are bound to be some strange outcomes, we are but 1 of those possible outcomes, nothing more, nothing less
26 February 2016, 07:26 PM
#795
Well that can't be right, the existence of God open to chance? God is supposedly omnipotent, the unmoved mover; either he exists or he doesn't and therefore not open to several possible outcomes otherwise it would result in there being the existence of several possible Gods. Well, that's how I see it.
26 February 2016, 07:42 PM
#796
Scooby Regular
Well that can't be right, the existence of God open to chance? God is supposedly omnipotent, the unmoved mover; either he exists or he doesn't and therefore not open to several possible outcomes otherwise it would result in there being the existence of several possible Gods. Well, that's how I see it.
In a way my whole problem with "religion" is they way it feels it has some immutable right to fill in gaps in human knowledge
It must form in an orderly queue like the rest of the unknowns
26 February 2016, 07:50 PM
#797
Scooby Regular
Yes he has a great YouTube channel - Potholer54
He attempts to answer, what I think is a great question, which is essentially
"How do we know what we know"
Most people (me included) take so much for granted, sometimes it is humbling to actually wonder at the science behind our every day lives and try and understand how actually we "know what we know"
Check it out if you are interested
He attempts to answer, what I think is a great question, which is essentially
"How do we know what we know"
Most people (me included) take so much for granted, sometimes it is humbling to actually wonder at the science behind our every day lives and try and understand how actually we "know what we know"
Check it out if you are interested
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 26 February 2016 at 07:53 PM.
26 February 2016, 07:59 PM
#798
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: lancashire
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't argue with that, they may also involve the existence of unicorns, dragons, bigfoot and anything else you care to choose, I have never denied that there may be a God, just as bigfoot may exist, however until I see some evidence I just don't buy it
If God was proven to be real I would accept that fact, if it were the other way round and God were proven to not exist do you think that Christians would be so ready or able to accept that fact, I sure dont
Jt loves to quote the Bible as evidence of God, For me the Bible is no more evidence that God exists than bram stokers literary works are evidence that dracula exists, I could quote passages from bram stokers book all day, it does not mean that dracula is real.
If God was proven to be real I would accept that fact, if it were the other way round and God were proven to not exist do you think that Christians would be so ready or able to accept that fact, I sure dont
Jt loves to quote the Bible as evidence of God, For me the Bible is no more evidence that God exists than bram stokers literary works are evidence that dracula exists, I could quote passages from bram stokers book all day, it does not mean that dracula is real.
26 February 2016, 08:04 PM
#799
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: lancashire
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes he has a great YouTube channel - Potholer54
He attempts to answer, what I think is a great question, which is essentially
"How do we know what we know"
Most people (me included) take so much for granted, sometimes it is humbling to actually wonder at the science behind our every day lives and try and understand how actually we "know what we know"
Check it out if you are interested
He attempts to answer, what I think is a great question, which is essentially
"How do we know what we know"
Most people (me included) take so much for granted, sometimes it is humbling to actually wonder at the science behind our every day lives and try and understand how actually we "know what we know"
Check it out if you are interested
I saw something on TV the other day which sums up the perverseness of religion, a guy was in a horrific car crash and the doctors and nurses managed to save his life, when he was interviewed, guess what he said?
Yep you got it, "I thank God" not an ounce of credit to the people who actually saved his life. To me anyone who cannot see the ignorance in that statement has issues
26 February 2016, 08:09 PM
#800
Right.I remember watching a documentary about an incredibly talented surgeon.Absolutely incredibly talented.Did he think God was a nonsense? No
After he carried out an operation on a child he said "I have done all I can.The rest is now up to God"
Pretty sure he wasn't a nutter masquerading as a Consultant in a hospital or subscibed to an ex rally car site.lol
After he carried out an operation on a child he said "I have done all I can.The rest is now up to God"
Pretty sure he wasn't a nutter masquerading as a Consultant in a hospital or subscibed to an ex rally car site.lol
26 February 2016, 08:10 PM
#801
Just saying :-) ......
26 February 2016, 08:22 PM
#802
Scooby Regular
He has great videos on the origins of the universe
And yes perverse, it is so riddled with contradictions and inconsistancies - requiring internal mental gymnastics that would make Olga Corbett proud
And yes perverse, it is so riddled with contradictions and inconsistancies - requiring internal mental gymnastics that would make Olga Corbett proud
26 February 2016, 08:23 PM
#803
Scooby Regular
Just saying what?
If he is responsible fo saving the girl he is also responsible for killing all the other girls who die of preventable diseases
Cherrypicking is another hallmark of pseudoscience
You seem to be simply filling in the gaps
It's nonsense
If he is responsible fo saving the girl he is also responsible for killing all the other girls who die of preventable diseases
Cherrypicking is another hallmark of pseudoscience
You seem to be simply filling in the gaps
It's nonsense
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 26 February 2016 at 08:26 PM.
26 February 2016, 08:29 PM
#804
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: lancashire
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Right.I remember watching a documentary about an incredibly talented surgeon.Absolutely incredibly talented.Did he think God was a nonsense? No
After he carried out an operation on a child he said "I have done all I can.The rest is now up to God"
Pretty sure he wasn't a nutter masquerading as a Consultant in a hospital or subscibed to an ex rally car site.lol
After he carried out an operation on a child he said "I have done all I can.The rest is now up to God"
Pretty sure he wasn't a nutter masquerading as a Consultant in a hospital or subscibed to an ex rally car site.lol
My opinion, and it should be the opinion of any logical person, is that it was the doctors and nurses who saved his life, and to give them no credit and simply thank God is to me, disgraceful, why did God make him suffer all the pain of being in a horrific car crash in the first place, to then save his life? If there is a God then he sure likes to play some screwed up games that's for sure
26 February 2016, 09:06 PM
#805
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: lancashire
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For anyone who thinks that religion does no harm please Google the case of Anneliese Michel, if her parents weren't so blinded by religion I feel this story would have had a much better ending, she would have got the help she so badly needed rather than the awful ending that befell her.
26 February 2016, 09:14 PM
#806
All I am saying is a highly intelligent man,with the ability to save lives,still believes in God as the final say so
:-)
:-)
26 February 2016, 09:17 PM
#807
Religion is always a good thread.And rightly so.
To me,no one will ever explain the beginning of the universe,the start of time,and so many unexplained matters.
Best chance we had..Hadron Collider or whatever it was.And it broke down.lol
To me,no one will ever explain the beginning of the universe,the start of time,and so many unexplained matters.
Best chance we had..Hadron Collider or whatever it was.And it broke down.lol
26 February 2016, 09:31 PM
#808
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: lancashire
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is there anything in anyone's life that they believe in without any evidence other than God? There is absolutely nothing I believe in that has no evidence to back it up, it is simply illogical to do so
26 February 2016, 09:47 PM
#809
Scooby Regular
26 February 2016, 09:55 PM
#810
Scooby Regular
Im sure some of the believers of bigfoot are highly intelligent also, in no way does that make it real.
Is there anything in anyone's life that they believe in without any evidence other than God? There is absolutely nothing I believe in that has no evidence to back it up, it is simply illogical to do so
Is there anything in anyone's life that they believe in without any evidence other than God? There is absolutely nothing I believe in that has no evidence to back it up, it is simply illogical to do so