hodgy0_2

that is simply because scripture is NOT based on science, so not surprising

it is based on faith

it is an apple and oranges conversation

JTaylor

Agreed! Gen. 1-3 was never intended to be 'scientific'! The concept didn't exist!

gary77

iTrader: (1)

I guess they wouldn't have to have faith God exists either , they may not even know he might exist ,

If Jesus hadn't came here would we all of been going to heaven regardless how we lived because we couldn't wilfully sin ? Was Jesus actually sent because God had to put a stop to unwitting sinners getting into heaven

I understand I'm thinking well outside the box here

JTaylor

Yes, the 'fate of the unlearned'. This is one I battered my pastor with when I was coming to faith. It is an extension of 'the problem of evil'. I struggled with the idea that a loving God would let His creation suffer in Hell when they'd not heard the Word. I've answered the question elsewhere and will dig out my response.

gary77

iTrader: (1)

I can see that if they get into heaven then it would be best to shield my children from religion , I can't imagine that's going to be the case ,

britishbulldog

iTrader: (1)

I have dedicated my life to my family, work, and other things I enjoy.
however all those things I am 100% certain are actually real, I personally cannot see the point in engaging in something that I am not sure is actually real.

With all due respect I honestly do not believe you have "felt the love of jesus"

I do however believe that you "think" you have felt the love of jesus, but that is not the same thing. the human mind is a very powerful tool.

With respect I have no wish to read any of the verses you quoted as they have as much meaning (to me) as if you were to ask you your opinion on chapter 2 of the latest harry potter book.

I can though take a guess that none of the verses you quote include any reference to any of the following:

Rape, Murder, Incest, Stoning to death, killing children, homophobia or any of the other abhorrent things that are all prevalent in "Gods Teachings" Am I Right?

It is easy to cherry pick the parts of a book that suit your belief whilst ignoring the parts that are impossible to defend and quite frankly have no place in todays society.

No offence is intended as you are entitled to believe what you like as long as you aren't bringing harm to others.

Would you say that someone that god "Speaks" to but is told to murder people is actually speaking to God or has a mental issue?

Why is it that the same person that "god" speaks to but is told to help people is perfectly normal?

The flip side of that would be:

A person that "satan / The devil etc" speaks to and is told to murder people is perfectly normal as I assume that is what satan would say???

Final question, does a child molester go to heaven if he begs forgiveness from god for his sins? is so then I think I will stick to the hole in the ground I will end up in to be honest. (not that I will know anything about it so doesn't bother me in the slightest)

If any of the above has offended you I apologise it just truly interests me that you are willing to ignore the many, many, many contradictions that should point you to the fact that the bible is nothing more than a story book designed to scare people into a certain way of behaviour in a time where you could pretty much get away with whatever you like.

dpb

youll be crossed off the list of potential followers/converts if you go like this BB

britishbulldog

iTrader: (1)

britishbulldog

iTrader: (1)

a quick google search shows the following parts of the bible, lets see the defense for these parts of the bible (or the meaning read into them if not meant to be taken literally:

Exodus 21:20-21 – "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

Timothy 2:11-12 – "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."

Corinthians 14:33-35 - "For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."

Leviticus 20:13 – "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Luke 14:26 – " If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

Nice God isn't he, how do I get my ticket to heaven?

gary77

iTrader: (1)

But actually ,not so far from how I understand the Koran talks about women ,

JTaylor

Yes, I've discussed this with Paben.

https://www.scoobynet.com/1026662-st...l#post11707393

Read down through it and have a listen to Bill Craig.

peter zippy reid

iTrader: (25)

So you can kick the crap out your slave just dont kill him seems like a god i want to meet NOT

JTaylor

BB, you've given me a lot of work there. May I have some time to answer each of your questions over the coming days?

JTaylor

I am surprised that you would state in one post that you had no wish to read the verses I posted in response to Swati's question, but then you "cherry pick" some verses in a post further down. I guess we're all guilty of hypocrisy.

The Bible is a library of books that span a long period and there are parts in some of the books that are difficult to swallow, but not "impossible to defend". I'll write my responses to each of the quotes you've highlighted below.

None taken, BB. Debates like this help me grow.

Depends upon the time and the context. Abraham was asked to kill Isaac and he's a founder of the faith. The Yorkshire Ripper said a god spoke to him and he's doing plenty of time for murder. Each incident requires significant investigation in order to draw conclusions. Entire dissertations are dedicated to the subject.

Most people that 'hear' God hear them in their heart, not literally in their head. I'm sure you're bright enough to work out the difference.

Murder is against the law.

If a criminal genuinely repents and finds faith then they will be admitted to heaven.

None of it's offended me, they're questions I've grappled with myself. If you want me to flesh some of these responses out I'll understand, but I'd be grateful if you could limit your questions to one per post so that they're easier to manage.

JTaylor

Ok, for the quotes from the Old Testament (Exodus and Leviticus) I've dealt with it previously.

https://www.scoobynet.com/1019239-sh...l#post11625688

The letter to the Corinthians and Timothy I'll deal with later. I've had the conversation in Bible study and have sound responses, but I need to marshall them. The Luke quote is interesting and again I have sound exegesis, but don't have time right now.

steve05wrx

It almost sounds like Bible study exists for people to discuss and learn clever answers to difficult parts of the Bible - so that they can justify their position and answer the sorts of awkward questions that are being put here.
I rarely hear a real Christian holding up their hands and admitting a contradiction in the scriptures - they always seem to be able to give a polished, glib answer that a politician would be proud of.

britishbulldog

iTrader: (1)

Now this I cannot wait for, lets see you defend:

You can beat your slave (just don't kill him)
Women Should be silent (actually this is completely defensible) (joking)
Being Gay means you should be killed!!!!

You are just going to say that it is not literal but that is the biggest cop out possible, the quote about gays cannot be taken to mean anything other than what it says, to think otherwise is just laughable, but please try your best.

britishbulldog

iTrader: (1)

And I am sorry JT but I have looked at the link you posted and it answers nothing, just more quotes that don't tell me anything, lets hear in English (your own words) how you justify the fact that being gay means you should be killed, without quoting another part of the bible.

Geezer

Do you honestly believe that if Fred West had been genuinely repentant, then he should go to Heaven, whereas an atheist who had devoted their life to helping others should go to Hell?


Can you avoid quoting the bible on this, please, just tell me your opinion on how that should pan out.

britishbulldog

iTrader: (1)

Heaven is probably the best place for Fred west to be frank, he can relax with Jimmy Saville, and all the other child abusers, rapists and murderers.

Not at all sure why you would want to go to heaven after hearing what it takes to get there. you can be the most evil b****d that ever lived but you just need to repent and its all forgiven? how screwed up is that

steve05wrx

Careful - that's a contradiction - so I foretell a quote, chapter and verse coming.

hodgy0_2

the problem JT has got is that he will always self reference the bible

Religion is both the start and (always) the end of the discussion after all

now, someone posted earlier regarding "not knowing" and that is absolutely correct, we don't know everything and there may well be a creator just as there may well be lots of thing we don't know

but "science" (by science I mean shorthand of non theistic rational thought) has a mechanism to deal with "not knowing"

it simply says - "we don't know (yet)"

it may even put a placeholder name for something like "dark matter" to describe the 99% of the universe that it can't account for

and that is where the fundamental difference between science and religion is, a difference that cannot be bridged

science is so strong (remember Religion has had, throughout the ages, to bend to science) that it can say simply and humbly "we don't know"

it has no need to fill in the gaps

Religion both fills the gaps and has all the answers - as JT stated a while back "you'll know"

JTaylor

I don't think you've understood the post in the link, it answers perfectly the Old Testament quotes. I'm going to spin this round and ask you where it says in the New Testament that if you're gay you should be killed.

JTaylor

My opinion's irrelevant on matters that concern God's sovereign judgement; my reference point is Scripture and if you look carefully you'll find the answers in there.

Turbohot

Thank you, James.


Good post, Hodgy. I used the 'need' word before. Like a lot of things in life, 'need' has a lot to answer for.


It could be because some need God in their life.

JTaylor

If you understood election and predestination you'd know why what you think you know is wrong. Alas, I've been banned from quoting the Bible during a discussion regarding the Bible, so can't set you straight.

JTaylor

The church in Corinth was in absolute chaos and Paul was trying to put it straight. Read the entire letter and you'll understand. Women were shouting out inappropriately and Paul was basically telling them to wind their necks in. That women were allowed to worship with men at all in 1st century Corinth was quite radical. As I said earlier it's about knowing the context in terms of the culture of the day.

Let me know when I can start quoting the Bible again so that you can develop an understanding of that which you criticise.

JTaylor

The Luke 14:26 quote can only be responded to by quoting other verses. Again I recommend reading the entire chapter so that you can understand it. Assuming you have the ears to hear, that is.

dpb

How do get the time to do this , is it that wife sub servient female partner whos not as good as jesus that supports you ?


is that too personal ?

Paben

iTrader: (5)

But a trained parrot could quote from the bible while actually lacking any understanding of the subject. A Mormon acquaintance used to employ a similar trick when asked a religious question. He prefixed every answer with "We believe . . .", as if this somehow released him from responsibility for his claims. At least he never resorted to "Joseph Smith says .."!