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Heres a question then guys, regarding knock control.
ESL uses the IAM threshold for sorting out knock.
Under high load conditions, any knock is used to revise the value of the IAM until a stable value is reached. The ECU determines “high load conditions” from the amount of ignition advance specified in the ignition advance map. If this is greater than the threshold specified in this table, then the opportunity is taken to “learn” the IAM. Note if the threshold is greater than any value in the ignition advance map, the IAM will never “learn” its correct value and the closed loop knock control will not operate.
must be greater than, not equal to.
So, looking at my timing, Am i right in saying, if i set my IAM threshold to 7, it will NOT learn or adjust the areas with 6 in a cell, BUT WILL learn and adjust advance timing cells with 7 or more in ?
It's the equals value I was unsure of , I get if the threshold is greater etc, but not if equal to a value it would learn .
Basically I want an area not to be learnt, with a value of 6 , but I do want it to learn a value of 7 , was unsure if I set threshold to 7 it would learn the 7 cells as its equal , wanted to be sure
Cheers
Last edited by The Rig; 21 January 2016 at 08:40 AM.
The manual only says greater than,so 7 in the threshold 7 in advance and it will still learn is how I see it. I can get now why you ask the question,it doesn't mention 'equal too' in the manual,would have thought Andy would have put that in if this was a non learning figure(equal),I'm sure I've some equal numbers in advance and threshold and its learnt,will have a look.
Last edited by ossett2k2; 21 January 2016 at 09:51 AM.
Cheers bud, yeah, no mention of equal threshold so like you , I'm guessing it should learn , I did ask Andy but no definitive answer , just riddles lol, bless him .
My threshold is 6 and I think it's still learnt a cell with 6 in it so I think an equal value will still learn , but I don't like assuming lol
My max timing advance is 7 so wanted to clarify the question as I don't want to turn knock control off at these points eeek ha
I never did get a definate reply back from Andy, guess his paid course is coming up soon tho
Here is my final fuel table after a bit of driving , ive leaned it out a fair bit to before as the car was feeling a bit flat as i think it was a bit rich coming onto boost, so leaned it out coming onto spool at 2000 , 2400 & 2800 as the magic starts to kick in from 3200 onwards really so richened it up from here on
Just wanting to Clarify, if the IAM threshold is EQUAL to a value in the advanced timing cell, will it still learn ?
I answered:
must be greater than, not equal to.
The manual, available to anyone, says:
Under high load conditions, any knock is used to revise the value of the IAM until a stable value is reached. The ECU determines “high load conditions” from the amount of ignition advance specified in the ignition advance map. If this is greater than the threshold specified in this table, then the opportunity is taken to “learn” the IAM. Note if the threshold is greater than any value in the ignition advance map, the IAM will never “learn” its correct value and the closed loop knock control will not operate.
Not sure how those are riddles and not sure how I can make it much clearer.
I hope you can understand I have virtually no free time, do have to prioritise the paying customers and feel a bit let down when I try and help and get rolleyes for my efforts.
I'm glad the car is driving well, you look like you are heading in the right direction and I will help, when I can.
Ha the rolleyes and thumbs up are my way of humour bud as i knew you would read these threads, never want to offend, humour over the internet never works lol
I got the replies but in reverse order via email, so i got the reply where you quote the manual, but it doesnt mention anything about an equal value, so even tho ive read the manual, it never answered my question, so altho your quote of the manual is helpfull, it didnt answer the question.
Then i got an email of must be greater than, not equal, again, this doesnt answer my question, do you mean the advance timing value needs to be greater than not equal to not learn or the threshold has to be greater than not equal to stop it learning ?
i always appreciate your a busy man, hence i value your input when i receive it, but since you wrote and designed the ESL, only you can answer these questions
Be interesting to see how you get on with the lean spool,I've read mixed reviews about this method,but as there's more than one way to skin a cat,a earlier spool can be had in other ways,through the map or hardware.
Ive read probably the same articles as you bud, different ways to achieve earlier spool, as im trying to do this with standard hardware, im opting for the fuelling to try and help, ive wrapped the standard up-pipe so hope both these things will aid spool up
Cool,you do look a fair bit leaner than me but totally different set up and i'm working on my fuel map in raw values anyway,mine also needs a fair bit of work.
Just be careful your EGT's don't get to high as i know the lean spool method can cause problems.
What RPM are you hitting 1bar and full boost?
I have a big turbo and FMIC so i expect a bit of lag but still think i can get it spooling earlier?
Hi bud , your running mafless tho bud so fuel table will be richer than running MAF , or does your AFR gauge show rich as well ? Where am I leaner , all the table or spool up ?
I hit 1 bar at 3000 and then from 3200 I'm hitting 1.2 building to 1.3 quite quickly
Yeh my whole table looks pretty rich but AFR gauge looks ok,I need to plug the gauge into the laptop and do some logging so I can compare to the ESL logs,I suppose it's just a case of getting used to using and looking at it all in raw values being mafless.
I'm guessing with your turbo set up then you should be able to get it spooling earlier?
Seems pretty good tho compared to mine,I've managed to get mine spoiling better than it was by just playing with WG min and max dutys. I'm hitting 1bar @ 3800 and full boost 1.5bar at around 4300,holding all the way to redline.
I still think it should be spoiling earlier tho as its a twin scroll.
Like I say the whole map wants some work anyway so when I've dialled in the AFR's a bit better I will see what the spool looks like.
Will see what improvement you get from a lean spool and have a play with mine when I get chance.
Cheers
Last edited by ossett2k2; 23 January 2016 at 11:16 AM.
Initial test looks no feel or difference in spool , my AFR gauge reads leaner at cruise and partial throttle so a bit of mpg improvement I guess before 3200 so even tho no real difference felt will leave changes in place as although a bit richer low down may give a bit more poke, my wallet might say thanks lol
Ive reverted back to a richer AFR, gone back to 13.4 , 13.2 and then 13.0 in the 3 columns, with the timing i had, the leaner setup made the car feel crap, i didnt want to retard timing as well as go lean as it saps power, so ibve gone richer,same advance timing as before for a bigger flame front into the exhaust
so, from my tests, the lean spool up didnt help much
Well, setting the Threshold to 7 Equalling my highest Advance values meant the advance didnt get applied as the IAM stayed at 8 after i reset the ECU, the car was flat, horrible to drive, changing the threshold back to 6 allowed the IAM to improve to 16 and the car drove like it used to, so in conclusion, dunno, but having the threshold to 7 and my advance timing to 7 was not a good mix, no knock detected tho ha ha
This is my last fuel table tweak, i had set the low throttle loads to 15.1 but this was a bit too lean, even tho it was momentary , it was enough to make the car feel a bit flat/jerky low down, so have put the values back to stoich and below for better driving, the minor MPG improvement i would of seen isnt worth the car going to 15.5 on the AFR gauge etc
good luck tweaking your maps guys, hopefully ive been of some insight into how you go about setting your cars up lol
Cool and cheers mate,it's always nice to see someone else's insight and experience into mapping,especially ESL as there isn't too much put online about ESL mapping tbh.
The manual is great but you can't beat having that first hand experience at actually doing it and seeing/feeling the results.
Nice work @The Rig
Wonder how the guys on the course got on today,will be expecting to see a thread on how it went
The course was spot on guys. Lots learned and discussed. I certainly feel I got value for money especially as both ESL directors were there to answer/explain all and any questions.
New turbo, inj and IC to fit and then start all over gain with the mapping. I will post back later.
Great news Wayne,had a feeling it was going to be a good one,properly gutted I couldn't attend
You guys have always been helpful as has Andy and now a few of you have some really good knowlage of ESL now then I'm sure I will be bugging you all for info
Really hope there is another course in the future
Not cynical , same as everything in life , when you advance using your wallet , I was under the impression Andys course was on mapping in general using the ESL software . Andy wrote a manual for ESL , surely in that is all there is to know , i just need to keep reading it ha ha , otherwise why write a manual if you leave things out ?
I know what you're saying mate,I does need reading a good few times,but each time it's read something else seems to click.
Tbh it's going well is mapping my car,just need to get my head around the mafless and was hoping Andy would have added injector duty to the software by now,he was working on it a while back so hopefully it will be added sometime in the future?
As you will know the ESL software is really user friendly and live mapping a great bonus(I suppose it would be handy to have some dyno time at some point but need to do more reading and spend a bit more time with the car&laptop,is difficult to spend hours at a time and find a decent area/road to give it some proper attention.
Am happy to keep plodding on tho and taking the odd logging sesh when I can,defiantly would of been a bonus to go on the course tho.
Cheers pal for your help too,just appreciate seeing some good info and threads like this one
Not cynical , same as everything in life , when you advance using your wallet , I was under the impression Andys course was on mapping in general using the ESL software . Andy wrote a manual for ESL , surely in that is all there is to know , i just need to keep reading it ha ha , otherwise why write a manual if you leave things out ?
To be fair mate, the manual is fairly comprehensive but does take some getting your head around. As we both know it took some interpretation and explination to glean from it what we needed to know. The course offers an explanation of steps taken to map a car and why things are done in an order appropriate. With both Andy and Spencer in the room there were no unanswered questions and my understading of the processes inlvolved has greatly increased. Bear in mind that even as a diy mapper ive been tweaking for the last 10 years on 97/98 cars!
And, your wrong mate, the people who went on the course will gladly share the information received in order to help others. It's just not as easy to explain it the way the ESL guys do on the course.
Rich, as your only up the road from me, do you fancy a mapping day?
That would be cool Wayne,very nice of you to ask.
Sounds like you had a great day on the course and the learning curve has just gone up another level.
Next one is March 15th so I'm going to see if I can get the day off work and with any luck will book on to this one.
I'm a little worried about my car atm
It's always had a noisy/slappy cold start(forged)but just recently I still hear a quieter knock on idle and bellow 1500rpm,just praying it's not the start of the fatal bottom end knock!
I'm going to do an oil change next week so will check for metal particles,will also check timing belt tensioners as it does sound like it could be that?
20 January 2016, 07:30 PM
