Holocaust Memorial Day
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That is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking about Maz. Forget a memorial it's actually been wiped from the history books.
We are regularly reminded about the holocaust (and rightly so) but other genocides seem to be forgotten, or should I say were never really acknowledged in the first place.
We are regularly reminded about the holocaust (and rightly so) but other genocides seem to be forgotten, or should I say were never really acknowledged in the first place.
There has been mass murder many times but the Holocaust occupies a unique place in Western history and is a scar on our identity, not so much because because it was uniquely vicious or barbaric per se but to paraphrase Hannah Arendt, it was 'banal', orchestrated by a dull technocrat acting dispassionately, and carried out by normal people rather than 'monsters', in the same was an industrial business might be run. How did this happen?
Last edited by tony de wonderful; Jan 28, 2015 at 06:49 PM.
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Tidgy - He would have been next to Auschwitz 3 known as Monowitz that is where the British POW camp was. If you go to visit Auschwitz. Only camps 1 and 2 are open to the public. Camp 3 has gone but it was right next to the IG Farben works and the evidence of that is still there. If you ever visit perhaps drop me a line before you do and I can point you in the right direction as to where that unvisited camp site is.
Maz - Hitler had a great admiration of the British and the Americans. And saw their genocides as a blue print for his own. Especially - if the Americans could push west and do it then why couldn’t he do the same east against the ´´natives´´ there
He was using 18th/19th century methods in the 20th century in the last big grab for empire at the 11th hour.
Up until mid way through the war the German genocidal plan was driven by two motivations. One, the obvious racial motivation, with the Jewish people the first of many groups to be slaughtered. The second rarely mentioned motivation is. That for the Germans to have captured all the raw materials and land from the east to build an economic empire to equal america in the 20th century, having anyone left alive to feed would have been counter productive. The eventual genocidal death toll, if the Germans had prevailed is projected minimum 20million up to perhaps 30million.
(I am a full time military historian and this is one of the two areas of WW2 I specialise in)
Maz - Hitler had a great admiration of the British and the Americans. And saw their genocides as a blue print for his own. Especially - if the Americans could push west and do it then why couldn’t he do the same east against the ´´natives´´ there
He was using 18th/19th century methods in the 20th century in the last big grab for empire at the 11th hour.
Up until mid way through the war the German genocidal plan was driven by two motivations. One, the obvious racial motivation, with the Jewish people the first of many groups to be slaughtered. The second rarely mentioned motivation is. That for the Germans to have captured all the raw materials and land from the east to build an economic empire to equal america in the 20th century, having anyone left alive to feed would have been counter productive. The eventual genocidal death toll, if the Germans had prevailed is projected minimum 20million up to perhaps 30million.
(I am a full time military historian and this is one of the two areas of WW2 I specialise in)
Top man for this discussion here on this thread.
What sets it apart, as TDW alludes to is -
Never before or since have intelligent educated people, engineers, architects, accountants a whole state apparatus sat down and cooly designed buildings purely to murder people.
That is what it sets it apart.
Never before or since have intelligent educated people, engineers, architects, accountants a whole state apparatus sat down and cooly designed buildings purely to murder people.
That is what it sets it apart.
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Start another thread about them in that case. Don't come on a Holocaust thread and start subtleanti-semitism.
There has been mass murder many times but the Holocaust occupies a unique place in Western history and is a scar on our identity, not so much because because it was uniquely vicious or barbaric per se but to paraphrase Hannah Arendt, it was 'banal', orchestrated by a dull technocrat acting dispassionately, and carried out by normal people rather than 'monsters', in the same was an industrial business might be run. How did this happen?
There has been mass murder many times but the Holocaust occupies a unique place in Western history and is a scar on our identity, not so much because because it was uniquely vicious or barbaric per se but to paraphrase Hannah Arendt, it was 'banal', orchestrated by a dull technocrat acting dispassionately, and carried out by normal people rather than 'monsters', in the same was an industrial business might be run. How did this happen?
How in god's name am I being anti-semitic?
All genocides or 'massacres' are in the end carried out by 'normal' people, there aren't enough 'monsters' out there to do the job.
Whether Hitler was dull or a technocrat is irrelevant, I'm not sure what you are getting at.
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Point taken Steve. The holocaust should never be forgotten, all I was trying to say is that it's a shame we don't do a bit more to learn from the other genocides and mass tragedies that have taken place.
We are going back a bit further in history but intelligent educated people, government officials, religious leaders etc were all complicit in the slave trade for example.
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Perhaps, but even in the 1940's we lived in a slow moving paper age of governmental bureaucracies. There was no internet to go and look up instant 'facts' about local food production and how much food each person had. The wheels of government turned slow and imperfectly.
It's too easy and fashionable to label the British in india as uniquely bad or malevolent or something. It's demonisation and blame casting. It's not thinking critically. Might as well blame the devil when bad things happen.
It's too easy and fashionable to label the British in india as uniquely bad or malevolent or something. It's demonisation and blame casting. It's not thinking critically. Might as well blame the devil when bad things happen.
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How in god's name am I being anti-semitic?
All genocides or 'massacres' are in the end carried out by 'normal' people, there aren't enough 'monsters' out there to do the job.
Whether Hitler was dull or a technocrat is irrelevant, I'm not sure what you are getting at.
All genocides or 'massacres' are in the end carried out by 'normal' people, there aren't enough 'monsters' out there to do the job.
Whether Hitler was dull or a technocrat is irrelevant, I'm not sure what you are getting at.
I was talking about Eichmann being the architect BTW. He was just a dull technocract is the point not a fanatic or psycho.
Last edited by tony de wonderful; Jan 28, 2015 at 07:26 PM.
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Perhaps, but even in the 1940's we lived in a slow moving paper age of governmental bureaucracies. There was no internet to go and look up instant 'facts' about local food production and how much food each person had. The wheels of government turned slow and imperfectly.
It's too easy and fashionable to label the British in india as uniquely bad or malevolent or something. It's demonisation and blame casting. It's not thinking critically. Might as well blame the devil when bad things happen.
It's too easy and fashionable to label the British in india as uniquely bad or malevolent or something. It's demonisation and blame casting. It's not thinking critically. Might as well blame the devil when bad things happen.
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Tony, India's political, and shall I say, human relationship with Great Britain speaks for itself how critically the whole history of the British Raj has been appraised by the leaders and the masses in India. no hard feelings exist, but the truths from the past are still recognised, if not dwelled upon. And that is, in no shape or form, some form of psychological slavery. As Tagore says - "Where the mind is without fear and the head is held high..... into the heaven of freedom, my father, let my country awake." That is the sentiment, not the sentiment of " Into the land, my father, let me blame the British for every damn suffering we've faced and we shall do every time we fvkk it up." India is about movement; symbolised by its very wheel bang in the middle of its mighty flag.
Ok fair enough but my gripe was mainly with Maz and his 'genocidification' of the past. It's like "unless I'm a victim or a celeb I don't exist and have no political importance or human worth". I don't a problem with people critically appraising the past as you allude to at all.
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I don't follow your logic and not for the first time. My genocidification of the past? I merely referenced another incident from the past where people suffered and died. Whilst the holocaust was a terrible event, it wasn't unique in discriminate slaughter of a particular group. The native Americans, the Aborigines, Africans, Rwanda, Bosnia etc etc. No group can claim monopoly on victimisation.
Genocide does not just equal suffering and death BTW.
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I don't follow your logic and not for the first time. My genocidification of the past? I merely referenced another incident from the past where people suffered and died. Whilst the holocaust was a terrible event, it wasn't unique in discriminate slaughter of a particular group. The native Americans, the Aborigines, Africans, Rwanda, Bosnia etc etc. No group can claim monopoly on victimisation.
I'm sure those you mention won't be thinking about the Holocaust either.Doesn't make them or us bad.We do sympathise with every other atrocity but this is the one that was so close to home...save Bosnia maybe!
Just my thoughts
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I was sat in our local pub last night with one of my sons. We were talking about these events and he asked how come something like that could occur without anybody attempting to stop it. I suggested that it was down to the total lack of implications and not much more. For example, what would happen if I pulled out a gun and shot a single stranger standing at the bar? In our society there would be hell to pay. In a different society nobody would do anything apart from maybe being surprised by it. After doing this every day for a week or so, nobody would be paying much attention, being an every day event.
If everybody had a casual indifference towards strangers it wouldn't be long before mass slaughter would be also accepted, on the basis that there are no implications to that kind of behavior.
As witnessed by many others, hate didn't actually play much part in the holocaust, it was just that nobody gave a toss.
If everybody had a casual indifference towards strangers it wouldn't be long before mass slaughter would be also accepted, on the basis that there are no implications to that kind of behavior.
As witnessed by many others, hate didn't actually play much part in the holocaust, it was just that nobody gave a toss.
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