Carnut

Yes at times they are one wheel drive, they do all sorts of things while you're pushing on round a corner these days, ie braking the inside wheel(s) to aid turn in. A RWD car thats having its front wheels managed by auto braking systems to optimise grip is hardly just RWD.

Modern cars do cover ground quicker, and.....

I used to drive class one years ago and trucks were using these new type auto boxs way before cars. (Manual boxs being controlled automatically with paddles etc).
But despite doing thousands of miles and driving in heavy traffic all day with a 16 speed box I still preferred manual trucks and it was work, not pleasure.

neil-h

Nope, you're still talking complete rubbish.

No amount of stability management and what not will stop a car that has its front/rear/all wheels driven from being fwd/rwd/awd.

Carnut

I find it strange how people seem to have a issue with me liking manual over auto. Pushing on in a fast A45 AMG etc is obviously much easier with a car thats doing one of the important factors in managing grip.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN FOR ONE SECOND THAT IT IS BETTER OR WORSE it's just what fits your driving.

But look, I'm disabled so driving for me is a luxury that I can only do a very limited amount of so I like to engage with the car as much as possible.

scoobyboy1

iTrader: (16)

Some of these Auto boxes are crap in trucks, amount of times Ive pulled onto roundabouts and then it decides to change up which always needs about 20 seconds to actually realise its changed gear, always resulting in angry drivers pipping there horns at me!!!

cookstar

iTrader: (6)

This could be tempting.

Carnut

FWD, RWD or 4WD used to be one of the main factors in how a car handled, you now have all these elec aids that masks some of those defining factors, you can now get RWD cars that understeer more than some FWD nowadays.

scoobyboy1

iTrader: (16)

I was the same, always preferred Manual over Auto(driven a few older Autos, these new auto's are a different kettle of fish), but last year I had a brand new BMW M-sport for a couple of weeks while my Impreza was getting repaired.
After driving the Bmw for a couple of weeks and jumping back in the Impreza, I realised how nice the BMW was to drive, it kind of made me hate driving the Impreza, and when I got a offer on it, I sold it.
Now Ive ordered my new car which has DSG, I don't think id go back to manuals(its so 1990's)

Carnut

True but I used to have a Merc Actros V8 with 660bhp that had a brilliant auto box with a manual option that would do what you asked it to do but I still changed back to a manual R series V8 topline after a bit.

Carnut

If I was in your position I would do exactly the same thing.

stilover

Hmmm, Focus RS.

Good thing going for it.
It's getting AWD.

Bad things going for it.
It's exterior looks. Looks sh1te to be honest. How that design got signed off I'll never know?
Interior. Looks sh1te, feel cheap.
No Cosworth badge.

TBH, I briefly though about holding off ordering the S3 Saloon, as I knew the Focus RS was coming. However, the Audi looks better (both inside & out) feels better build/made/expensive than any Ford can ever achieve.

S3 has 300bhp, Focus RS to get 325bhp. Think I can live without an extra 25bhp. And this coming from a kid back in the day that was fast Ford (especially Cosworth) mad. Wouldn't even look at anything other than Ford. Now? Will probably never buy a Ford again in my lifetime.

stilover

But t didn't you find driving an Auto boring after a while?

I test drove an S3 with DSG, and yes, to cruise around it's effortless, and just planting your foot gets instant acceleration (especially in sport mode) and you can use the flappy paddles on a back road to get more involved.
However, it was boring after a while. I enjoy changing gear. The flappy paddles are a gimmick, and I bet most owners never use them. The manual gear lever is upside down (so you can't go all pretend Touring car racer) and all you end up doing is steering the damn thing. Yawn !!!

Yes, a manual equivalent will always be slower, given the time it takes to change gear, but who really care's about that? only boring pub show-offs, or Nerds.

Lack of Manual is why I chose the S3 over the RS3. Now if the RS3 was Manual, or even better Manual and Saloon? I'd have one on order today.
Why so many people want the car to basically drive them around is beyond me? Maybe it's the same people who just fly round roundabout with no indicators on, and think all other road users know which exit they're coming off on, nearly causing a crash at the same time. They also think a car should turn lights on when it's dark, or turn the wipers on when it rains. FFS, it's only a flick of a switch to turn these thing on !!!

If people want an Auto, fine. But don't assume we all want one. Plus I wish the Manufacturers would give people genuine choices. I'm sure if Audi offered a Manual option, some people would choose it, others wouldn't. But at least we'd have a choice.

Shaun

I don't have an issue with it..... just having a laugh.


Although what's a gearbox and clutch got to do with being an important factor in managing grip? Perhaps you best have a word with the WRC contenders then.

Carnut

Im not going there.....ok a little bit, wrc drivers have plenty to be doing, if I had a supercar I would need flappy paddles to get anywhere near what it can do, a Golf not so much.

Carnut

Finally, someone who gets it.
All of it by the way not just the highlighted part.

Shaun

Hold on... you didn't answer the question. What has the gbox and clutch got to do with being an important factor with managing grip?

Shaun

Just to be clear here, before I rip anyone a new backside.

When you lot talk about slagging "auto" boxes, do you include auto's with manual modes using the flappy paddles as well?

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

Carcoont, you don't half babble on a load of crap, are you the new LWC?
I've seen all your posts and tbh I get tired reading them so now I just skip past as I can't be arsed with all the crap you post that you 'think' you know everything.
Nobody likes a smart coont.

What happened to you leaving anyway?

jonc

Yes I believe that. I had a Clio 182 Trophy before my current car BMW 135i and have taken them on Bedford Autodrome. Sure it's fun doing a bit of power oversteer in the 135i and it gives a real good shove down the straights and has a fantastically refined with a great engine, but the Clio in terms of handling feel and fun, I'd rate the Clio much higher, you can be delicate and you can take it by the scruff of the neck, it's so nimble and chuckable at the same time give loads of feedback to do controllable 80mph lift off oversteer on the bend before the pit straight. RWD snobbery belongs on Pistonheads

Carnut

Ok, in it's simplest way, if you are going round a big long corner or roundabout in the wet the correct gear and the correct revs will give you more grip.
I learnt that on my driving lessons, is that not common knowledge or do you disagree?

Carnut

Like what, facts or me having a subjective opinion that's different to yours.

On leaving, I asked Lisa to remove my profile to remove temptation (I don't have anything better to do) but she said she couldn't and after stepping back I was getting pm's from people asking me not to be silly and not to go so decided to just pop on from time to time but then I got carried away.

Anything else?

Shaun

You look at things in a very weird way. That's not the gearbox and clutch defining grip, it's ultimately your speed and dynamics. Your right foot will be a major factor in that.... Not what gear you're in or revs you're at. I could balance a car around a bend at high revs no sweat.

Carnut

I'm clearly not making myself look good at the moment so I don't want to go on too much but thought I might quote a few things from other forums and training sites instead, try putting 'correct gear for cornering' into google.The extreme of it is in the snow, keeping low revs would also aid grip there

One the first things I learned about was that you should not corner with clutch pushed down. I had always avoided doing it in the past, and had actually known about from my knowledge on race driving. I understand the importance of being in the correct gear for going around a corner


I experienced similar problems when first driving an auto, I found unless I touched the brakes gently, the car felt like it was wallowing around the bend.

I have since been taught to either "lock down" or judge my approach better and cause the auto to select a lower gear as you approach the bend


Slow down in good time and select a lower gear if needed, as this will give you more control


For the best grip, the engine should be 'under acceleration'. This doesn't mean you should increase your speed in the bend, but means the engine should be pulling the car.


ideally, you'll want to be in the lower gear upon exit, to gain the maximun power and acceleration upon exit. However, if you find your car shifts up a gear immediately upon exit, try going in in the higher gear, and holding the gear through the turn, to avoid an unwanted shift.

Sorry I cant get the quote thing to work so back to me but if you are at the end of your rev range then you don't have good torque to pull you round the bend, like wise if you are too low in a gear you still wont have the power and smoothness to pull you round the bend.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Carnut, Part of what your describing is also known as balancing the throttle, it's kind of basic knowledge but surprising how many people don't know how to do it, the other bit about braking in a corner is also a kin to left foot trail braking, something I used to do in FWD cars whilst also on the gas to reduce understeer, but again it's all to do with balancing the throttle, being in the right gear is a given in any situation really.

Also it's part of the reason I prefer the 5 speed in Subaru's over the 6 speed, 2nd and 3rd are great for hooning down country roads especially with the way the smaller TD04 turbo delivers it's power in the mid-range it stays on song all of the time between 40mph and 90mph odd and stays in it's peak torque zone. With the kind of roads I like to drive on, basically lots of bends with small straights in between the box is perfect for this. I don't like flying about the place at 100+ mph these days on road or track been there done that with bikes.

Throwing a car down country roads really quickly isn't always about who has the most power, it's about how it delivers that power and how well it matches the gearing, decent chassis and brakes, ie the whole package, numbers mean very little at the end of the straights.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Anyway, back to the RS, I don't think they're going to be able to make it a great deal better than it already is, which is why they should have gone RWD but all is not lost, they're half way there with a rear diff and prop shaft so maybe we will see a few DIY rear wheel drive Focus RS's sometime in the future.

pflowers

I'm not doubting that some cars can be fun to drive even if they are FWD, but saying RWD is not as good is just crazy.

Try putting the 135 motor in the clio and see how well the FWD works then.

jonc

I'm not saying RWD is not as good as FWD, just saying it's over rated; it's not the be all and end all to driving nivarna. FWD cars such as the already mentioned Clio, or the Megan RS-R, Integra Type-R being rated above many RWD mechinary, some fairly exotic too, by numerous "all time greats" motoring reviews is testiment to that. However, I do recognise that ultimately, a RWD is usually top, but they're also many times more expensive.

FWD cars with around 300BHP are not all that uncommon, take the last generation Focus RS an tidy handler and will keep up with most RWD motors on your typical B road thanks to it's diff and trick suspension. Dismissing powerful FWD motors as all torque-steering wheel wrenching power-understeering ditch finders is also crazy. I changed to a BMW as I wanted something a bit more grown up and refined and try RWD again, but you know what, I'll problably go back to small, light, focused and modestly powered normally apirated hatch like the Clio in a few years time, but I fear they're the last of their breed.

jonc

...or which end they're driven from.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Yeah got to admit I'd love a little hot hatch such as the Clio or Fiesta ST, I had a thing for XR2's in the late 90's but sadly such vehicles are just a bit too small for my current needs, I think I might take that route in a few years, have something a bit special in the garage for summer weekends and a small hot hatch for tooling about in, can't beat em for cuckability and giggles they don't need a load of power to be fun.

Carnut

Which was all I was trying to say, left foot braking is also something that is being taken away with tech, another good use for it is locking up the diff a little in a FWD to aid traction on exit but stability controls etc manage lots of these things nowadays.

I just like having more control over the mechanics of the car, its the same part of me that likes driving trucks and tractors, there not superior driving machines, i just like them.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Me too, had my first go on a tractor a few months back digging up potatoes and I'm hooked, got to get one if only so I can have a few extra beers down the pub and come home across the fields and up some of the more hard core dirt tracks to my place.