LostUser

Go here and click "I want help finding a new boiler" and then click Next Question. It will suggest a boiler or two depending on bedrooms\bathrooms etc.

http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/hom.../find-a-boiler

Bosch bought Worcester in 1992 so that's a funny comment for the plumbers to make.

Worcester won the Which Best Buy award again this year for their Greenstar Gas boilers so they can't be that bad

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

They are nasty to fit, I wouldnt be fitting any if I had the choice that is for sure!

Go wrong alot, cost alot more, you can get decent boilers with the same kind of warranties etc for less money......

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Such as?

I'm not a fan of the "How many bedrooms, how many bathrooms?" type of "calculator.

Our house has only three bed, one bath, but is 50% bigger than most modern 4-bed with ensuite houses.

How is that accounted for?

So far, one plumber has come round, even he only wanted to know number of beds, number of baths.

PaulC72

Mine asked how many beds / baths, how many rads and the looked at the locations of each one as he walked round the house.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Another has now asked how many rads and how many of those have TRV's.

Given that just TWO of the rads have an output of 21,000 BTU between them, I'd have thought it relevant.....
When I changed those, 25 years ago, the builder's merchants who supplied them asked all sorts of questions about what the walls/floor/roof were made of, sizes of windows, insulation levels etc.

None of that has been asked.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Next question:
Given that we only have one bathroom, (and two electric showers), do we need a system boiler, or can we get away with a combi-boiler?

Mrs Alcazar prefers a bath, and the house mains water pressure is hovering around 1 bar...I can p*ss further than my hosepipe shoots it's jet!

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

Because most plumbers don't have a fecking clue these days, ask them if they are going to do their Delta T calculations to size the rads etc......

I doubt they even know how to do it, I'd price it properly for you, but to be honest I don't do domestic!

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Can you show me a link on how to calculate what size I need?

PaulC72

Does that mean you will need a booster too?

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

http://www.diy.com/help-and-advice/btu-radiator-calculator/dev_npcart_100006art?content=/content/knowledge/calculators/btu_calculator/btu_calculator.jsp

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Thanks JGlanzaV.

What's a booster?

My mains water is tee'd off the feed to a neighbours', just before her meter. If she and we use cold water at the same time we get a trickle.

Disgusting, but Anglian Water won't rectify it...it was apparently a cheapskate act by the builder of our property.
It will cost me £400+ to get it put right. And no guarantee it will be MUCH better.

The present shower has a pump...is that a booster?

PaulC72

I am not a boiler engineer or installer but I believe if you water pressure is too low your options on boilers are limited or you get a booster installed to increase the flow rate.

Based upon what you say it seems you have a bit of a problem with your water which may not help you in the long run.

Mog

If you have a shared main you will need permission from the water supplier before fitting a booster pump and even then it will have to be limited to 12L per min.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Oh cr@p!!!!! More costs.....

Mog

Have you had any more contact from the accredited installers as they have to respond to an enquiry within 5 days as part of their agreement.

Also Worcester have just won the Which report for their entire range of boilers for the 4th year in a row...confirmed

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

One been and is doing the estimate.
One rang yesterday after I replied to W/B enquiry as to how I found the installers to be....and told them only one had bothered to contact me.

He is coming some time today.

The third is still to contact me

Osimabu

iTrader: (2)

Why do you want a new boiler? If the old one is working okay, keep it serviced and leave well alone.

All modern boilers are condensing so you'll have to find somewhere to drain the condensate pipe to that won't freeze up in winter. That can be a problem if it's nowhere near a suitable waste pipe. It's also reckoned that the lifespan of modern boilers is only 5 to 10 years.

If your old one has lasted 25 years, that says something about how good it is.
The only reason to replace it in my opinion is if the heat exchanger has corroded away and you can't buy a replacement.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

I wanted something that was more efficient..we use 65% MORE gas than a comparable house, apparently.

Out of the three Worcester Bosch plumbers, one has been, one contacted me, then phoned later to say he was busy and would phone the next day, since then, nothing.
and the third still hasn't bothered.

If Worcester Bosch are as good as their plumbers, I'll not be bothering them with any money.....

PaulC72

Have you got any alternate quotes yet? I mean I wouldn't tie myself down to WB boiler knowing how many other good makes there are out there - after all in reality they all do the same thing!

you may find that a WB plumber isn't as flexible on negotiating a cost than one installing a Baxi, Viessman, Valient etc - if it was me (and in June this year it was) I would try to get various quotes and see the pros and cons as they will all do something different.

Some power flush some use magna flush.

john banks

No doubt telling you how to suck eggs here, but even the most ambitious boiler marketing wouldn't claim reversal of the lion's share of a 65% excess of gas use unless the present boiler is frankly faulty. Other factors surely come into play like usage (women up to 30C?), controls (I like modern controls but their gains may be overstated), insulation and items other than the boiler itself. For my oil boilers for example, to go from 86% efficiency to 93% (assuming same measurement technique) represents 7.5% saving. Saving more if my old boiler is faulty or not setup correctly, saving less if it is and the new one isn't... what if my return temps are not optimised for condensing for example?

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Pity about the lack of installers in your area. I have a little rule that is if someone can't be arsed to to quote you, they aren't going to give you the service you want either. You aren't alone in getting a good plumber - I've gone through my fair share and that's not just because I'm a picky sod. The last lot I had the gaffer was great, but his employees were Tweedledee and Tweedledum - as soon as the the boss went off site everything went pear shaped. The current one, talks the talk and quick to pull apart everyone else's workmanship, but will happily bodge on top of a existing bodge instead of starting afresh and making it right, that and he's so absent minded yet if you write it down so he does remember - he'll ignore it. The best plumber I know is now living on a oxygen tank (soldering+insulation+smoking)

John highlights a good point; In terms of efficiency, its a global "whole house" issue that needs to be taken into account, the boiler itself is just one component; I can't see how a boiler can use 65% more fuel - surely you'd have to be getting black smoke out the flue for it to be that inefficient.

Take my old house as an example...It had a "old" Worcs-Bosch 35CDi combi...NON-condensing (mid 1990's), -last of its breed so it had the basic energy saving features later boilers had like anti-cyling, and full modulation based on demand but without the unreliability that early generation condensing boilers had. Its official rated efficiency is 79% - not bad. Yet SEDBUK will rate that as a "D" rated gas guzzler, and many manufacturers and installers would have you believe its alot worse. Add insulation TRVs and TPi controls, no stored hot water, PVC glazing+doors, wall insulation, and heavily insulated attic into the mix and really its not that bad as they make it out to be. I certainly had no complaints about the gas bill.

Whereas now, I'm living in my late father's house (which he built) which had condensing boilers from the outset (3rd one in 24yrs I may add), high output thermapanels, TRVs throughout, thermalite blocks on the inner skin, foam backed floorboards. And to be frank, even though its a much newer (90's vs 60's) house it costs a fortune to heat in comparison; £1000 gas bill last winter's quarter. So yeah, I have a 90% efficient boiler but there is alot more to it - Ignoring the size of the house, the main part of the problem was(is) the roof and the stored hot water, other issue is lack of zoning and the controls not really being suited to keeping a condensing boiler, well, condensing. Even then if the boiler did condense, it'll only net me a 10% saving at the most....the rest of wastage is just being lost through shoddy pipe lagging, draughty windows (double glazed, but softwood frames...all knackered as dozy painters painted over the seals ) and a conservatory...Rear half of the house is now re-glazed in aluminum, conservatory is now demolished with in place of it a brick+insulated tiled roofed extension. The roof is still the big issue, its a huge surface area with dormas too (Lesson to everyone, never buy/build a house with a dorma roof - may as well burn money on the fire); Roof insulation is glass-wool, alot of which needs re-doing and to top it off the dormas appear to have a bog standard membrane so the upstairs rooms just have roof tiles, glass wool and plasterboard as separation/insulation from the elements. But where it has been re-done its been done in celotex (not as itchy ) and modern membrane, new carpets have the thickest cloud 9 underlay available. That's the tip of the iceburg, but hopefully this winter my heating bill will be a bit less....as long as the tank thermostat behaves......Evohome is the next step. Then next year a ACV tank and more re-jigging to the plumbing....If I can knock off more than 30% of my winter's gas usage, I'll be happy....it'll also be nice if two people can each have 15min power showers without running out of hot water too.

This house WILL kill me. Or I will kill it. I think the house is winning at the moment

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

I think the problem with my boiler is it's lack of controlability. (Is that a word, even?)

It heats the water by gravity feed, but several rads get hot upstairs when the water is on, but not the pump, so that must be gravity feeding too. Result: over hot upstairs, wasted energy.

p1junkie

iTrader: (5)

forget wbosch
the dumb**** designer decided to make the most simple repair a ****ing epic
forget combi your water pressure will be insufficient
Vaillant all the way and as regards sizing as a rule a normal 3 bed house will be more that adequate with a 15-18kw boiler
if 4 bedrooms i wld step it up to maybe a 24kw you may have a higher rating at pressent but take its probable 50% efficiency then its comes to same result
fair bit of work to convert to fully pumped system i wld estimate parts costs to be in the 1200.00 range for boiler/controls/valves/2 stats /wiring etc so prob ballpark figure of 2400.00 to cover..based on not actually viewing the job

john banks

Can you put TRVs on the upstairs radiators but also update/repair the valves so that the radiators are properly shut off when you just want hot water?

I just wonder whether your payback time is going to be very long?

p1junkie

iTrader: (5)

the rads getting hot upstairs when water is on is either faulty non return valve or no non return valve fitted

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

No non-return valve fitted.

Where would one go? In the gravity fed circuit, surely not?
In the pumped circuit? Flow or return?

Might do that myself.........

This whole thing has kicked off since the hot water cylinder is weeping from the cold inlet where the fitting is soldered in, not the actual mechanical join. It's the second I've had go in the same place. Hercal.

Quite a rave removing and refitting it, so I thought, maybe get a system with NO hot tank?

Osimabu

iTrader: (2)

You need to fit an anti-gravity valve in the vertical feed from your boiler to the central heating system. This will open when the system is being pumped (ie when you've got the c/h turned on) but not when it's just on the hot water heating (ie just gravity) only. That will stop the upstairs rads getting warm from convection currents.

The fittings on cylinders are usually connected with threaded fasteners (ie copper or brass nuts). It's unusual to find them soldered, so if you keep getting leaky ones, a grumble to the supplier is in order. I've fitted a few stainless cylinders recently (surprisingly cheap) and they come with all the connections pre-fitted as 22mm compression. I've yet to have any leaks from them.

We'll save you buying that new boiler yet!

Dingdongler

I've recently had my entire system changed. Two major changes I made were

1) Zoning off the floors. My downstairs always gets colder than upstairs, so now I can just turn the heating on downstairs when it's been a bit chilly in the mornings. Makes the house more comfortable and will hopefully save me money.

2) I've installed a cold water accumulator (TWS Mainsboost) so that at times of peak demand we can all get a decent shower.

hodgy0_2

yes, why is that this seems so prevalent with plumbers

My father in law had one that rubbished some pipework (forgetting it was him that did it a few years before)

they must be so insecure

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Thanks, might do this, what do I ask for? any particular make? It's 22mm.

Sorry, I haven't made myself clear. The weep is coming from where the brass threaded union for cold inlet at the bottom of the tank, is sweated into the tank.

The tank is now ten years old, so.........???

Last one went in EXACTLY the same spot, after 15 years

At the moment I've tied a strip of plastic bag round it with the ends trailed into a dish to collect any water, to avoid it staining my kitchen ceiling any more

Temporary, but will get fixed....new tank, methinks. Not until I come back from working in France again, which is 02/11. I'll need to drain down anyway, so will fit the non-return valve at the same time.

So far, still no estimates. And no proper contact from two WB suppliers.