john banks

My driving experience here is limited as I have only driven RWD on road tyres, not with slicks and wings, mainly BMW M cars. All of them were considerably more comfort orientated and none had anywhere near as much torque going to the rear wheels as the GTR and none of them were anywhere near as challenging or intimidating to drive. I couldn't get slow in fast out to work as I couldn't get the fast out to work in the wet in the cars I tried in the wet, you had to wait until you had a lot of lock off and be very smooth to avoid oversteer or DSC intervention on corner exit. Fast in didn't work either in my M3, a little better than the Subaru, but not enough better to make a Subaru or Audi feel like an understeering pig.

What BMW should I try to show me good RWD steering feel and a palpably world class cornering balance rather than being a comfort machine mainly about marketing with a sanitised driving experience? All the BMWs except one I drove had LSDs and I am pretty sure hydraulic power steering. Not tried the very latest M3/M5/M135i. Have they improved the steering on the latest models and I need to revisit?

john banks

I reckon except in ideal conditions, with practice/familiarity if track/car, or a pro driver, that not having to manage oversteer on corner exit saves time for most drivers, using road cars on road tyres. I keep making the distinction of road cars and tyres, as well as downforce, because the difference they make is orders if magnitude greater than the differences between different brands of comfortable road cars that are through marketing mainly trying to be a bit sporty. The reality as I see it is that much over 1g in any direction gets a bit uncomfortable. Trouble is that a typical BMW probably only gets about 0.5g at best? Maybe Leo RS has a g trace from his M5, but to me, these are third gear acceleration forces or corner exit acceleration when you still have 0.7g lateral loading, I can get so much more out of the tyres with good AWD with an active centre diff.

john banks

Another thought as won't be online again for a while... Steering feel is important to judge friction and slip angles on the front tyres. Even an Audi with an electric handbrake has ways and means of neutralising the corner entry balance and the 40-60 split longitudinal quattros are acceptable mid corner. Corner exit is excellent. Some BMWs also understeer on entry as standard, my M3 was beautiful mid corner as long as the surface was smooth, but I could do nothing about corner exit traction. So, does the BMW being sometimes brilliant mid corner only make it worth being a PITA out a wet junction or in winter?

Matteeboy

Well the easy line is "why do so many experienced journalists like BMWs so much and why do they win so many tests?" But that's a bit third hand.

Now my own experiences are reasonably varied but not exactly comprehensive and my driving experience is more than most (IAM and Police training) but not actual racing bar a bit of karting (which of course are RWD).

What I have found is that the fast 4WD cars I have driven (I've owned a fastish one too) do grip very well indeed but there's a vagueness to them that leaves me feeling slightly remote from what the tyres are doing. I guess trust does build as you really get to know them but there's just not the predictability I want.
However for foul conditions or off roading, they are the only real option.

RWD has been the driven wheel choice of most of my favourite cars - either ones I've driven enough to get to know well (Mk3 MR2, mk2,3 MX5, F355 Berlinetta, BMW 750i, Elise 111R) and of course my old 335d and now my M135i.

It's hard to put into precise words but they just "feel" right to me - yes there's a bit of slip or scrabble out of fast exits but I find that fun. And in the wet? Okay I've not tried a true torque monster (the 335d wasn't bad) in the wet but the ones I have driven simply become MORE fun when it's wet - I can't really beat the feeling of a controlled mini drift off a bend or even a little roundabout and the way a RWD car simply blends "brake, steer, accelerate" on any proper corner is just magic even if fractions of a second might be lost.

I really got to rinse every last bit of performance last Friday on our M135i meet partly because the SAME car was behind me (I have to add that I was the quickest out of the 6 M135is by a fair bit and had to stop and wait twice as I was leading but one other car was pretty close most of the time) and the road was absolutely perfect - fast straights, tight bends, space to overtake, etc. The compact size (A GTR would just have been too big IMO), the agility, the noise and overall package just made the M135i shine very very brightly. Yep it gets lairy on bumpy bends if you're going for it, yes it can fishtail if you are silly with the throttle but it's a little hatch with 320bhp - it should be a bit of a handful at times.

Nope steering feel hasn't got any better - it's got worse thanks to electric steering but it IS more direct now and weights up nicely at speeds. But even a Cayman GTS now has it.

Yes I do prefer dry roads as you get more out of a RWD car but wet conditions don't spell doom; just an adjustment and maybe a little less aggressiveness.

Ferrari uses RWD almost exclusively, the fastest track cars are almost all RWD, the most focussed cars are all RWD. I love it even if a lesser powered car might be a fraction of a second quicker in the pissing rain. However I do think something like a 620R would have me flinging myself towards a tree in no time.

Matteeboy

Well down here it's been pretty much non stop since April

john banks

Briefly, as on a phone, most of the points are preference, tyres, tradition, suspension, purpose of the car or regulation limited. Steering feel and cornering balance are not fundamentally issues of a good AWD chassis, but lack of acceleration of even a good RWD chassis on present road tyre tech most certainly is. How did you find the Evo IX steering feel and cornering attitude by the way? It knocked every BMW chassis I've driven into a cocked hat for steering feel and forward progress in, through and out a corner. How do they do that with 50-50 static torque split? Oh, and a cast iron block flung out over the front axle... too much journalistic clap trap here. Respectfully suggest you try driving some quicker cars as you would not stick to one wheel drive as your preferred layout then I am absolutely certain.

Carnut

The best handling cars used to be rwd but things have changed, not to say that rwd is bad but times have moved on. BMW now have a fwd car and are going 4wd, merc are also going 4wd and with power going up all the time less and less supercars are rwd (or more are 4wd) The new Seat leon cupra lapped Castelloli 1.2 secs faster than the 235i in the handes of the stig and it is just not a given these days that rwd is going to be best. If you go above a certain amount of power then fwd is no longer a option but still, its a toss up between 4wd and rwd.

One last example, look at the BTCC, rwd is better at some tracks and fwd is better at others, the technology these days allows car manufacturers more options, the technology just wasn't there back then and the only option was rwd if it had power.

oh and matt, your car may say rwd in the book but with all the shackles on it from the nanny state its stability is controlled by the car, not you.

But but but the real reason for putting myself in the firing line is I can not believe that SN has let you get away with the utter shìt in your posts. I have highlighted some of my favourite bits but in summary you race your car round at full tilt on public roads you should have your licence cut up. I know you say you are one of the best drivers about (on a car forum of all places) but drifting on bends and roundabouts is fućking stupid, maybe your time is better spent beating up stray dogs.

P.s changed username from chris j t to carnut.

Matteeboy

Write to Ferrari, Caterham, Lotus, Porsche, Shelby, etc with your revelations. I will always prefer RWD but clearly your state paid expensive car habit makes you more qualified to an opinion.
You may try to sound like a car guru but actually you're very one dimensional - it must have massive power and it must be 4WD. Try a Caterham, or an Elise, or a sorted MX5 or countless other proper drivers cars for once, not some hotted up 4WD Jap car that weighs more than most luxobarges. Try learning to drive modern RWD cars rather than just dismissing them because they are different to a rally rep Evo.

You can turn off ALL traction in my car and I often do but Sport+ is generally a very good "almost off" option. But thanks for the little gem of patronisation.

So Chris/whatever; that is your only straw to clutch at; calling me naughty for driving a fast car quickly?

Bwahahaaaa!

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Mattie I have respect for you but your response to John is a little condescending. You don't have to resort to that sort of thing. You're articulate enough to come back with something better.

Jayjay100

So you are drifting on a road not a track is that right. If so then please let me no when and wear you are doing this so I can keep well away from you . & let the old bill no . Don't get me wrong i love to drift but in a safe place not on a public road that is just well say no more. What would happen if u lost contral of your car and hit someone els and you end up killing them . You would never forgive your self and 6 years inside may help you think about how you drive your car .

Jayjay100

Jayjay100

If u like the s3 look at this

Jayjay100

john banks

I am glad we're different. Your reference to respected brands is confounded by other factors already summarised, and comparing P1, 918 and LaFerrari to determine the best drivetrain layout is as nonsensical. Guru definitely not, but my only performance car was paid for by work in the motor tuning industry, not the state. I make no inflated claims of my driving ability, but I don't think 320 HP should be making a car lairy. If you like to compare acceleration times as you seem to, why would you not add a propshaft, two diffs and two driveshafts at c.5% total weight to add another 0.4g of acceleration if it can be done without corrupting steering feel as it can be by adjusting centre diff lock depending on speed, throttle, steering angle etc? It can feel organic in the right setup, and not just in one brand of car or cars I own/have owned. I may come across as an AWD fanboy, but I am on a suitable forum to do so and have some technical and experiential credentials to comment even if my opinion and driving abilities are worth belittling in your eyes. Good day.

joz8968

iTrader: (13)

....Which is an anagram of:

r a c*nt

Didn't think that through, really.


Only having a laugh; nothing personal.

Jayjay100

Glad you said you was only having a laugh or a joke . As he is one of the nice's members on hear . There are alot of good and nice members on this site and some have help me out alot with my car . But am sure you no there are also so ******s on hear to . But then thats life .

nik52wrx

Not only that he's been kind enough to assist the rozzers by posting a picture of his car including the registration in another thread

Matteeboy

And what law would be broken exactly? Are you really that thick?

A very lame attempt at trying to bring me down. Pathetic in fact.

There's a lot of pious old tarts on this forum, very few true enthusiasts left.

Time to pack my bags and move on: the forum has been ruined.

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

Wow, at least it's not me who thinks he's a snobby *****!
**** off to pistonheads!

nik52wrx

I'm not thick enough to boast about me and my chums tearing around public roads with my speed warning set to 90 ish miles an hour whilst also posting up my reg.
Now go f@ck yourself,

P.s.
Photo taken down to annoy me??
Also please explain how me pointing out your reg in a photo makes me boring.

bustaMOVEs

iTrader: (31)

Shut the door behind you and throw the keys in the river

Jayjay100

Lol . Lmfao .

Jayjay100

Got to love this site . It's all good banter . Mmmmm
Or is it . Am going out now to film my self doing 160mph in a 30 . Then post it on u tube . How long would it take before old bill come a calling .

Harryr34

iTrader: (9)

Nice figures

What tuning box did you go for mate?

I've got a golf r on order, looking into tuning boxes/remaps at the moment

stilover

Well, I'm waiting to see what the next RS3 is. I'm hoping for.....

Saloon only
Manual Gearbox
400-450BHP.

Might chop the R8 in for one with a brand new 5 year warranty.

DSG only like the RS4 & RS6? Audi can shove it up their *****

Jayjay100

No way if you have a r8 I would not sell it

john banks

stilover, was behind an R8 which was being generous with the gas and it sounded amazing. Has it done well for depreciation and reliability?

stilover

Never missed a beat. It does sound amazing (V8) and still gets looks and positive feedback wherever I go.

Depreciation? Well, I see the decent 2008 cars with 30,000+ miles still going for between £45-50k. At that price, I'd get my money back, and maybe a few quid on top.

The reason I think, is like the GT-R. The new list price keeps going up and up. Think the R8 now starts at £96k. So good second hand examples are holding value. Would be great to get 3-5 years ownership, and not cost me a penny apart from consumables.

Intrim service is about £130-150. Not bad.
Last big service was £1400. But that included air con refresh, brake fluid replaced, and a couple other small items.

Tyres are about £800 a set, which is really good considering the width of the rears.

Overall, been a great car, and love it to bits. But can't keep it forever. Saying that, if no other car floated my boat, I'd happily hang onto it for another few years.

stilover

How long do I keep it for? Had if almost 3 years now, and it's a 2008 car.

The RS3 is another 12-24 months away. Want to move it on before, A) it starts to depreciate, and B) before it starts costing big money to keep going. New discs and pads all round are £3000. New Mag dampers are £1000 each.

So a Brand new RS3 Saloon with a 5 year warranty sound good to me. Yes, it'll depreciate, yes it'll never be as special as an R8. But at least I can say I've owned one.

But if the RS3 doesn't tick all the boxes, I'll hang onto the R8. After all, the all new R8 is out next year, and it'll be even more expensive, which in turn my keep my cars value still high.

Brun

Not a great fan of the R8 but would I chuff replace one of those with a pumped up family saloon! Why not side shift to a 2nd hand GTR or similar?