Terror threat level raised... new laws coming?
31 August 2014, 10:11 AM
#31
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Personally, I don't think diplomacy with the Israelis or Hamas would have reduced casualties in Gaza. Do you seriously think diplomacy or sanctions will work with IS fighters? I seriously doubt it. Diplomacy and economic sanctions did not prevent the Srebrenica massacre and nor did it end the war in Kosovo, UN military intervention did.
That said I do think diplomacy from the US and the UK could have worked at least partially with Israel, but for some reason we and especially the US seem scared of upsetting them. There is also of course the fact that the West cares little about Muslims being massacred and as the action in Gaza was no direct threat to the West it did not rank too highly on their give-a-****-o-meter
But four weeks ago we didn't know how far British jihadists would go to making their point. We now have a group of British jihadists beheading a western journalist and others boasting that they would be 'honoured' to do the same to other western hostages.
We have reports of hundreds of British jihadists now fighting in Syria and Iraq who, in the event of IS being disbanded, could return to carry out retaliatory acts of terrorism on British soil and we have no idea of the identities of these jihadists.
No evidence has been published as to why the alert has been raised, but this does not mean it does not exist. Would it not be reasonable to assume that in publishing the evidence would only give away what intelligence we have and their sources to the terrorists/jihadists? Besides what use is an alert system that only reacted after a terrorist act?
I don't have the answers and these sort of things aren't as "black and white" as we would like it to be.
We have reports of hundreds of British jihadists now fighting in Syria and Iraq who, in the event of IS being disbanded, could return to carry out retaliatory acts of terrorism on British soil and we have no idea of the identities of these jihadists.
No evidence has been published as to why the alert has been raised, but this does not mean it does not exist. Would it not be reasonable to assume that in publishing the evidence would only give away what intelligence we have and their sources to the terrorists/jihadists? Besides what use is an alert system that only reacted after a terrorist act?
I don't have the answers and these sort of things aren't as "black and white" as we would like it to be.
It smacks of political posturing and the timing is very suspect too.
Even if it is all true and we are under imminent threat I also can't help but think we'd have a few less homegrown jihadists were our track record of invading Muslim countries and massacring civilians in the name of collateral damage were a little better, but we are where we are and maybe we are now reaping what we have sowed!
Last edited by f1_fan; 31 August 2014 at 10:19 AM.
31 August 2014, 10:16 AM
#32
There was no beheading, says a number of independent experts.
It's fake a scam a false flag.
A military or paramilitary operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operation appears as though they are being carried out by entities, groups or nations other than those who actually planned and executed them.
It's fake a scam a false flag.
A military or paramilitary operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operation appears as though they are being carried out by entities, groups or nations other than those who actually planned and executed them.
31 August 2014, 11:57 AM
#34
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I'm sure if you asked Obama, Cameron or Hollande today if they wished they'd supported the pro democracy movement 2 years ago they'd say yes.
Last edited by Martin2005; 31 August 2014 at 12:12 PM.
31 August 2014, 12:01 PM
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Personally, I don't think diplomacy with the Israelis or Hamas would have reduced casualties in Gaza. Do you seriously think diplomacy or sanctions will work with IS fighters? I seriously doubt it. Diplomacy and economic sanctions did not prevent the Srebrenica massacre and nor did it end the war in Kosovo, UN military intervention did, Diplomacy and sanctions are proving ineffective in stopping Russia from sending troops into Ukraine, but that is all we have, short of starting another cold war. What effect will diplomacy and economic sanctions have on IS who are a collection of jihadist freedom fighters with no central governing body?
But four weeks ago we didn't know how far British jihadists would go to making their point. We now have a group of British jihadists beheading a western journalist and others boasting that they would be 'honoured' to do the same to other western hostages and it seems they will do whatever with little provicaiton.
We have reports of hundreds of British jihadists now fighting in Syria and Iraq who, in the event of IS being disbanded, could return to carry out retaliatory acts of terrorism on British soil and we have no idea of the identities of these jihadists.
No evidence has been published as to why the alert has been raised, but this does not mean it does not exist. Would it not be reasonable to assume that in publishing the evidence would only give away what intelligence we have and their sources to the terrorists/jihadists? Besides what use is an alert system that only reacted after a terrorist act?
I don't have the answers and these sort of things aren't as "black and white" as we would like it to be.
But four weeks ago we didn't know how far British jihadists would go to making their point. We now have a group of British jihadists beheading a western journalist and others boasting that they would be 'honoured' to do the same to other western hostages and it seems they will do whatever with little provicaiton.
We have reports of hundreds of British jihadists now fighting in Syria and Iraq who, in the event of IS being disbanded, could return to carry out retaliatory acts of terrorism on British soil and we have no idea of the identities of these jihadists.
No evidence has been published as to why the alert has been raised, but this does not mean it does not exist. Would it not be reasonable to assume that in publishing the evidence would only give away what intelligence we have and their sources to the terrorists/jihadists? Besides what use is an alert system that only reacted after a terrorist act?
I don't have the answers and these sort of things aren't as "black and white" as we would like it to be.
In principle I agree with getting UN backing, but in practice what that actually means is nothing gets done
31 August 2014, 12:03 PM
#36
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Put it this way I doubt IS would be occupying northern Iraq on his watch.... not saying that he wasn't a tyrannical dictator with a penchant for killing and imprisoning anyone who got in his way, but when you look at the bloodshed there in the last 15 years would it really have ben any worse had we left him alone?
31 August 2014, 12:14 PM
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Maybe, but equally I am sure if you asked certain members of the various administrations of the time whether we should have ousted Saddam Hussein they'd probably say No with the benefit of hindsight.
Put it this way I doubt IS would be occupying northern Iraq on his watch.... not saying that he wasn't a tyrannical dictator with a penchant for killing and imprisoning anyone who got in his way, but when you look at the bloodshed there in the last 15 years would it really have ben any worse had we left him alone?
Put it this way I doubt IS would be occupying northern Iraq on his watch.... not saying that he wasn't a tyrannical dictator with a penchant for killing and imprisoning anyone who got in his way, but when you look at the bloodshed there in the last 15 years would it really have ben any worse had we left him alone?
I guess we'll never know.
31 August 2014, 12:26 PM
#38
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The first thing that needs to be dealt with is purely the humanitarian issue.
On that front I have to say I become increasingly frustrated with the UN... they seem even less inclined to do something than a decade ago other than issue platitudes by the bucket load.
31 August 2014, 12:30 PM
#39
And the United Nations Protection Force in Srebrenica failed to hold back Bosnian Serb armed forces that resulted in the massacre in Srebrenica.
31 August 2014, 01:49 PM
#40
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i think it was the shocking treatment of the Muslims in kosovo that caused the initial spark of homegrown "jihadism"
the utterly disturbings scenes of 1000's of muslim men and boys being loaded into trucks - in plain view of the worlds media and taken to the woods nr Srebrenica, to be made to kneel before being machined gunned to death
and utter inadequacy of any concerted response by the rest of the world - shook many young british muslims
I remember in the mid 90's reading plenty of reports of British muslims going over to fight in Bosnia and Kosovo
the utterly disturbings scenes of 1000's of muslim men and boys being loaded into trucks - in plain view of the worlds media and taken to the woods nr Srebrenica, to be made to kneel before being machined gunned to death
and utter inadequacy of any concerted response by the rest of the world - shook many young british muslims
I remember in the mid 90's reading plenty of reports of British muslims going over to fight in Bosnia and Kosovo
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 31 August 2014 at 01:51 PM.
31 August 2014, 05:46 PM
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There was no beheading, says a number of independent experts.
It's fake a scam a false flag.
A military or paramilitary operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operation appears as though they are being carried out by entities, groups or nations other than those who actually planned and executed them.
It's fake a scam a false flag.
A military or paramilitary operations designed to deceive in such a way that the operation appears as though they are being carried out by entities, groups or nations other than those who actually planned and executed them.
01 September 2014, 09:08 AM
#44
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i think it was the shocking treatment of the Muslims in kosovo that caused the initial spark of homegrown "jihadism"
the utterly disturbings scenes of 1000's of muslim men and boys being loaded into trucks - in plain view of the worlds media and taken to the woods nr Srebrenica, to be made to kneel before being machined gunned to death
and utter inadequacy of any concerted response by the rest of the world - shook many young british muslims
I remember in the mid 90's reading plenty of reports of British muslims going over to fight in Bosnia and Kosovo
the utterly disturbings scenes of 1000's of muslim men and boys being loaded into trucks - in plain view of the worlds media and taken to the woods nr Srebrenica, to be made to kneel before being machined gunned to death
and utter inadequacy of any concerted response by the rest of the world - shook many young british muslims
I remember in the mid 90's reading plenty of reports of British muslims going over to fight in Bosnia and Kosovo
01 September 2014, 04:19 PM
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I heard on the radio today that Cameron is considering not letting people back in if they chose to fight for ISIS or against Asad.
Whilst i agree in principal what if a British Muslamic goes to Iraq to fight ISIS... should they be treated the same? After all... most normal folk want ISIS defeated.
Whilst i agree in principal what if a British Muslamic goes to Iraq to fight ISIS... should they be treated the same? After all... most normal folk want ISIS defeated.
01 September 2014, 05:24 PM
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01 September 2014, 07:22 PM
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[QUOTE=Shaid;11504620]I heard on the radio today that Cameron is considering not letting people back in if they chose to fight for ISIS or against Asad.
Whilst i agree in principal what if a British Muslamic goes to Iraq to fight ISIS... should they be treated the same? After all... most normal folk want ISIS defeated.[/]
Good point, what a fcukin mess
Whilst i agree in principal what if a British Muslamic goes to Iraq to fight ISIS... should they be treated the same? After all... most normal folk want ISIS defeated.[/]
Good point, what a fcukin mess
01 September 2014, 08:02 PM
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The Iraqi government was deemed to be getting too best buddies with Iran,so it's a case of time to get involved by the US/UK......again,,first though we need a pretex, welcome to ISIS.
The ISIS uprising is a 100% US/Israel/UK engineered plot using jihadist fanatics and mercenaries.
Their purpose,to smash any independent Middle Eastern state that refuses to bow down to a Greater Israel.
Apart from its relationship with Iran and close proximity to Syria, the other reason for destroying Iraq has to do with planned chaos. The plan of a Greater more powerful Israel.
The ISIS uprising is a 100% US/Israel/UK engineered plot using jihadist fanatics and mercenaries.
Their purpose,to smash any independent Middle Eastern state that refuses to bow down to a Greater Israel.
Apart from its relationship with Iran and close proximity to Syria, the other reason for destroying Iraq has to do with planned chaos. The plan of a Greater more powerful Israel.
Last edited by stipete75; 01 September 2014 at 08:03 PM.
01 September 2014, 08:05 PM
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The Iraqi government was deemed to be getting too best buddies with Iran,so it's a case of time to get involved by the US/UK......again,,first though we need a pretex, welcome to ISIS.
The ISIS uprising is a 100% US/Israel/UK engineered plot using jihadist fanatics and mercenaries.
Their purpose,to smash any independent Middle Eastern state that refuses to bow down to a Greater Israel.
Apart from its relationship with Iran and close proximity to Syria, the other reason for destroying Iraq has to do with planned chaos. The plan of a Greater more powerful Israel.
The ISIS uprising is a 100% US/Israel/UK engineered plot using jihadist fanatics and mercenaries.
Their purpose,to smash any independent Middle Eastern state that refuses to bow down to a Greater Israel.
Apart from its relationship with Iran and close proximity to Syria, the other reason for destroying Iraq has to do with planned chaos. The plan of a Greater more powerful Israel.
It won't be long before you're on 8 out of 10 cats.
01 September 2014, 08:14 PM
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The Iraqi government was deemed to be getting too best buddies with Iran,so it's a case of time to get involved by the US/UK......again,,first though we need a pretex, welcome to ISIS.
The ISIS uprising is a 100% US/Israel/UK engineered plot using jihadist fanatics and mercenaries.
Their purpose,to smash any independent Middle Eastern state that refuses to bow down to a Greater Israel.
Apart from its relationship with Iran and close proximity to Syria, the other reason for destroying Iraq has to do with planned chaos. The plan of a Greater more powerful Israel.
The ISIS uprising is a 100% US/Israel/UK engineered plot using jihadist fanatics and mercenaries.
Their purpose,to smash any independent Middle Eastern state that refuses to bow down to a Greater Israel.
Apart from its relationship with Iran and close proximity to Syria, the other reason for destroying Iraq has to do with planned chaos. The plan of a Greater more powerful Israel.
01 September 2014, 08:22 PM
#54
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Not letting them back in?? Good idea as that won't further fuel their hatred of Britain.... 
Shouldn't we be doing the opposite and not letting them go there in the first place and putting in to action a programme of de-radicalisation. At the end of the day they are British whether we like it or not.
Shouldn't we be doing the opposite and not letting them go there in the first place and putting in to action a programme of de-radicalisation. At the end of the day they are British whether we like it or not.
01 September 2014, 11:14 PM
#55
Not letting them back in?? Good idea as that won't further fuel their hatred of Britain....
Shouldn't we be doing the opposite and not letting them go there in the first place and putting in to action a programme of de-radicalisation. At the end of the day they are British whether we like it or not.
Shouldn't we be doing the opposite and not letting them go there in the first place and putting in to action a programme of de-radicalisation. At the end of the day they are British whether we like it or not.
01 September 2014, 11:19 PM
#56
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I'd rather not let them back in to prevent them from carrying out further terrorist atrocities. You let them in, they'd arrested and incarcerated, either way fuelling theirs and other radicles' hatred. Not sure how one go about 'de-radicalising' someone with ingrained extremist views.
I think we'd be better off having them here and under a watchful eye rather than them learning how to make bombs in terrorist training camps.
As for de-radicalising them I agree not all can be, but they didn't start out life as extremists so surely there is some way to sort some of them out.
01 September 2014, 11:24 PM
#57
The Iraqi government was deemed to be getting too best buddies with Iran,so it's a case of time to get involved by the US/UK......again,,first though we need a pretex, welcome to ISIS.
The ISIS uprising is a 100% US/Israel/UK engineered plot using jihadist fanatics and mercenaries.
Their purpose,to smash any independent Middle Eastern state that refuses to bow down to a Greater Israel.
Apart from its relationship with Iran and close proximity to Syria, the other reason for destroying Iraq has to do with planned chaos. The plan of a Greater more powerful Israel.
The ISIS uprising is a 100% US/Israel/UK engineered plot using jihadist fanatics and mercenaries.
Their purpose,to smash any independent Middle Eastern state that refuses to bow down to a Greater Israel.
Apart from its relationship with Iran and close proximity to Syria, the other reason for destroying Iraq has to do with planned chaos. The plan of a Greater more powerful Israel.
02 September 2014, 08:26 AM
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I'd rather not let them back in to prevent them from carrying out further terrorist atrocities. You let them in, they'd arrested and incarcerated, either way fuelling theirs and other radicles' hatred. Not sure how one go about 'de-radicalising' someone with ingrained extremist views.
02 September 2014, 12:42 PM
#59
You won't prevent them doing anything though. We already know hundreds of people enter and leave the UK every day on false passports so if they want to come back and commit atrocities here they can, but even if they don't what if they decide to pick on Brits abroad etc. etc.
I think we'd be better off having them here and under a watchful eye rather than them learning how to make bombs in terrorist training camps.
As for de-radicalising them I agree not all can be, but they didn't start out life as extremists so surely there is some way to sort some of them out.
I think we'd be better off having them here and under a watchful eye rather than them learning how to make bombs in terrorist training camps.
As for de-radicalising them I agree not all can be, but they didn't start out life as extremists so surely there is some way to sort some of them out.
02 September 2014, 12:57 PM
#60
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But we can't keep them out. If they choose to come back here and commit a terrorist act the fact they can't re-enter on their real passport is of no issue to them.
Sadly it's a moot point as it won't stand up to international law. You cannot make someone stateless and by refusing them entry you are doing that no matter what Cameron says about refusing the entry being different to removing their passport. Imagine if any country we tried to deport someone to just said they were not allowing them entry so we had to keep them... the Daily Mail would have a field day with that.
You are not getting rid of them though. You are simply leaving them somewhere where their radicalisation will increase as will their hatred of the West and their ability to commit acts of terrorism. It's short-sighted at best!
Also how do you propose we decide who can and who can't come back in. You talk about the manpower to keep tabs on them when they are here, well surely we need just that amount of manpower if not more to decide whether they went to Syria to fight for IS or for another reason which maybe completely innocent like they have family or friends or business there or are we just going to say "if you're a darkie and you went to Syria you're a problem"?
Also how do you propose we decide who can and who can't come back in. You talk about the manpower to keep tabs on them when they are here, well surely we need just that amount of manpower if not more to decide whether they went to Syria to fight for IS or for another reason which maybe completely innocent like they have family or friends or business there or are we just going to say "if you're a darkie and you went to Syria you're a problem"?