Lessons will not be learnt/learned *
18 August 2014, 06:46 PM
#31
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20 August 2014, 09:39 PM
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20 August 2014, 10:21 PM
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21 August 2014, 12:22 AM
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As far as lessons being learnt are concerned…
Lesson 1 – have a coherent strategy; currently our government’s strategy is completely incoherent. They are talking tough but doing nothing.
Lesson 2 – intervention works if you do it properly and plan for the aftermath. Iraq is the a mess, not because we got rid of Saddam, but because we completely failed the people of that country post war.
Lesson 3 - doing nothing doesn’t work, as proved by the utter mess in Syria
Lesson 4 – don’t leave it to the UN, ultimately we should never allow our foreign policy and national security to held hostage by Russia.Sure let’s do all we can to build an international consensus, but if that fails we still have to do what’s right, not just for us, but simply what is right.
Lesson 5 – don’t ignore genocide. Which is what the do nothing brigade are currently advocating. If there’s any lesson from history itis surely this.
We are up against utter evil here, evil that will one day visit us on our streets.
Last edited by Martin2005; 21 August 2014 at 12:26 AM.
21 August 2014, 12:45 AM
#38
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Martin, we will never know your views as you never actually state them, instead you just criticise everyone else's, but in this case I am implying it is the UK government's view..... your view on this, frankly, is unimportant as is mine!
What would be nice would be if our government could see their way to having a coherent policy on genocide in general and to apply said policy fairl no matter which country, organisation or religious sect is doling it out.
What would be nice would be if our government could see their way to having a coherent policy on genocide in general and to apply said policy fairl no matter which country, organisation or religious sect is doling it out.
21 August 2014, 12:58 AM
#40
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Martin, we will never know your views as you never actually state them, instead you just criticise everyone else's, but in this case I am implying it is the UK government's view..... your view on this, frankly, is unimportant as is mine!
What would be nice would be if our government could see their way to having a coherent policy on genocide in general and to apply said policy fairl no matter which country, organisation or religious sect is doling it out.
What would be nice would be if our government could see their way to having a coherent policy on genocide in general and to apply said policy fairl no matter which country, organisation or religious sect is doling it out.
Conclusions
A. You cannot read?
B. You cannot comprehend?
C. You're an obnoxious ****?
21 August 2014, 02:21 AM
#41
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Strange that you post this underneath where I very clearly given my view, and then added a barb about another topic where I have on umpteen occasion given my view (like on the Gaza thread).
Conclusions
A. You cannot read?
B. You cannot comprehend?
C. You're an obnoxious ****?
Conclusions
A. You cannot read?
B. You cannot comprehend?
C. You're an obnoxious ****?
Your mention of Syria is interesting as when Cameron was trying to get a mandate for going in on the back of Assad's chemical weapons attack it was Russia who led the calls for restraint as they said the chemical weapons attack covered so wonderfully biasedly by our media was not the work of Assad.... something dismissed by Cameron and Obama that later turned out to be right on the money!
While 'doing something' is seen by you as a good thing we can't just 'do something' without absolute concrete proof that we are right to get involved.... a quick reminder of the dossier on WMD wouldn't go amiss here.
All that said the humanitarian side of all this does need action, but knowing our government mission creep will soon take over as was witnessed in Libya when 'protecting civilians' became a manhunt and summary execution without trial of Gaddafi!
Basically we need a multi nation plan and mandate as frankly our government are not to be trusted with our involvement and we end up just making ourselves an even big a target for terrorism from outside and within!
21 August 2014, 07:40 AM
#42
Your mention of Syria is interesting as when Cameron was trying to get a mandate for going in on the back of Assad's chemical weapons attack it was Russia who led the calls for restraint as they said the chemical weapons attack covered so wonderfully biasedly by our media was not the work of Assad.... something dismissed by Cameron and Obama that later turned out to be right on the money!
21 August 2014, 09:51 AM
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Oh I thought you were just posting some generic psycho babble, but in that case I can see you are on the 'let's get stuck in' side of the fence and you say intervention can work..... so give me one example of where the US and UK World Police force have made somewhere a better place as by ignoring the UN which you are also advocating that is what it is going to be down to again!
Your mention of Syria is interesting as when Cameron was trying to get a mandate for going in on the back of Assad's chemical weapons attack it was Russia who led the calls for restraint as they said the chemical weapons attack covered so wonderfully biasedly by our media was not the work of Assad.... something dismissed by Cameron and Obama that later turned out to be right on the money!
While 'doing something' is seen by you as a good thing we can't just 'do something' without absolute concrete proof that we are right to get involved.... a quick reminder of the dossier on WMD wouldn't go amiss here.
All that said the humanitarian side of all this does need action, but knowing our government mission creep will soon take over as was witnessed in Libya when 'protecting civilians' became a manhunt and summary execution without trial of Gaddafi!
Basically we need a multi nation plan and mandate as frankly our government are not to be trusted with our involvement and we end up just making ourselves an even big a target for terrorism from outside and within!
Your mention of Syria is interesting as when Cameron was trying to get a mandate for going in on the back of Assad's chemical weapons attack it was Russia who led the calls for restraint as they said the chemical weapons attack covered so wonderfully biasedly by our media was not the work of Assad.... something dismissed by Cameron and Obama that later turned out to be right on the money!
While 'doing something' is seen by you as a good thing we can't just 'do something' without absolute concrete proof that we are right to get involved.... a quick reminder of the dossier on WMD wouldn't go amiss here.
All that said the humanitarian side of all this does need action, but knowing our government mission creep will soon take over as was witnessed in Libya when 'protecting civilians' became a manhunt and summary execution without trial of Gaddafi!
Basically we need a multi nation plan and mandate as frankly our government are not to be trusted with our involvement and we end up just making ourselves an even big a target for terrorism from outside and within!
I'm certainly not advocating ignoring the UN. I want us to do all we can to get a consensus, but you cannot just stop having a foreign policy and national security imperatives just because Putin wants to play silly buggers.
What sort of proof do you need as far as IS are concerned?
21 August 2014, 10:53 AM
#44
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The most telling thing, as was pointed out by the more sensible media organisations, is that the whole event was suddenly dropped by the likes of Cameron and Obama whereas initially they were repeatedly calling for it to be fully investigated. That probably tells you all you need to know!
21 August 2014, 11:12 AM
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Hello Neville Chamberlain.
21 August 2014, 11:14 AM
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21 August 2014, 11:18 AM
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To answer the other part of your question.
Illegally invading two Muslim countries with no mandate to do so other than we felt like it.
A mainstream press that consistently demonises Muslims
A government that lets them do it with impunity and uses Muslim extremism to further its control of the population through snooping laws and restricted movement etc.
21 August 2014, 11:24 AM
#49
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A quarter???? Proof please.
To answer the other part of your question.
Illegally invading two Muslim countries with no mandate to do so other than we felt like it.
A mainstream press that consistently demonises Muslims
A government that lets them do it with impunity and uses Muslim extremism to further its control of the population through snooping laws and restricted movement etc.
To answer the other part of your question.
Illegally invading two Muslim countries with no mandate to do so other than we felt like it.
A mainstream press that consistently demonises Muslims
A government that lets them do it with impunity and uses Muslim extremism to further its control of the population through snooping laws and restricted movement etc.
What is remarkable IMHO is the extent to which there isn't demonisation, given historical precedents and the sort of demonisation which goes on abroad. Many societies in the past might have booted all Muslims out by now or seriously infringed their rights. There has not been one anti-Muslim pogrom in the UK in contrast and they enjoy the same rights as everyone else.
21 August 2014, 11:24 AM
#50
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A quarter???? Proof please.
To answer the other part of your question.
Illegally invading two Muslim countries with no mandate to do so other than we felt like it.
A mainstream press that consistently demonises Muslims
A government that lets them do it with impunity and uses Muslim extremism to further its control of the population through snooping laws and restricted movement etc.
To answer the other part of your question.
Illegally invading two Muslim countries with no mandate to do so other than we felt like it.
A mainstream press that consistently demonises Muslims
A government that lets them do it with impunity and uses Muslim extremism to further its control of the population through snooping laws and restricted movement etc.
Keep talking.
99.999% of Muslims in the UK are peaceful people just wanting to go about their daily lives. Why should they not have the same rights as you and me?
21 August 2014, 11:30 AM
#52
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That is where your problem comes from. Simple as that!
21 August 2014, 11:34 AM
#53
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And as for 99.99% of Muslims being peaceful that doesn't tell the whole story. Most non-Muslims would be surprised about 'moderate' Muslims true attitudes to non-believers, secularism, political Islam, women, gays, etc. The 'moderate' community is from one POV the soil from which the exterminist have sprung (unless you believe that people live in social vacuums).
21 August 2014, 11:35 AM
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Because the rhetoric used by the media in the West (especially the UK) and backed up by the government's inaction over their behaviour and their own actions in these invasions is that the war on terror is actually a war on Muslims.
That is where your problem comes from. Simple as that!
That is where your problem comes from. Simple as that!
21 August 2014, 12:35 PM
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21 August 2014, 01:54 PM
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The war in Kosovo was carried out by NATO, WITHOUT the backing of the UN.
I suggest you buy some history books fella
Also - what would you suggest we do if we can't get the backing of the UN?
I suggest you buy some history books fella
Also - what would you suggest we do if we can't get the backing of the UN?
Last edited by Martin2005; 21 August 2014 at 02:01 PM.
21 August 2014, 02:03 PM
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