Andy Stevens

It's only really LC that hurts the tranny, which you don't need to use on a trackday. The flatshift and ALS will help.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

In regards to switching to ground, I have a single pole illuminated rocker switch. The earth for the light will be the same as the switched earth and therefore when switched connected to the ecu pin. My concern is that I could be pulling current through the ecu momentarily, or am I over thinking this?

Andy Stevens

You have a separate power supply for the light on the switch? If so then there won't be any pull off the ECU.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Yes, separate +12v in but the earth for the light will be connected to one of the other 2 contacts. Is there a chance that the switch could connect the ecu pin connection before the earth? Or do I just use a diode to be safe?

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

And flat shift and ALS will **** your turbo in no time flat if used properly, if it is for pops and bangs and show off you wont get any benefit from it at all anyway

Its just a toy for selling more products to people who dont really understand what it is they want and just want to "look cool and sound like a rally car"

Andy Stevens

Another scooby myth. I've had ALS, LC, Flatshift and TC on mine for ages and the turbo is absolutely fine.

The ICV won't flow enough air to drive the EGTs high enough when ALS is on unless you use a throttle jacker.

The Flatshift similarly is never on for long enough to make any difference to EGTs.

The LC will push EGTs up quickly and will ultimately melt a plug or exhaust valve it held on for any length of time, but the main source of concern is the transmission. A TY752 box will not survive repeated launches.

Andy Stevens

I'm not sure I 100% follow, the light isn't switched as well is it?

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

So how many manifolds and gaskets have you gone through in that time?

So do you have proper antilag and FFS that actually gives noticeable positive manifold pressure?

I have seen logs for a car that has proper FFS enabled and the boost graph is quite spectcular and mine will be going the same route in the next few months when I get my turbo back from TT.

Do you have a plot with the FFS enabled?

Andy Stevens

ALS through ICV will give 0.5bar improvement.


With 20% throttle jack you can have permanent positive boost but it is no good for a road car.

Here is an early log of FFS, but it is much improved now. The difference with and without is still pretty clear:



I had a HG failure due to ARP studs but it has been fine since I replaced them with RCMS extreme 11mm studs. I would say that was down to peak pressures rather than motorsport features. No turbos, manifolds or other gaskets have been harmed.

If you are so convinced that Flatshift kills turbos, why are you having it fitted?

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

Because my car is my toy, and replacing my turbo isnt a big deal for me, where as on a daily driver or normal road car I wouldnt have it.

I will get my 10sec 1/4 mile so this would help us knock off the last few tenths needed!

You say half a bar improvement, but the video doesnt show any positive manifold pressure, only the fact that is runs at -.028vac rather than 0.7?

Andy Stevens

That is an increase of manifold pressure of half a bar, I don't know how else to explain it to you. 0.77-0.28= 0.49 bar increase. That gives a better throttle response when you get back on the power.

You can't get positive manifold pressure at idle without a throttle jacker, the ICV on it's own doesn't allow enough airflow, which is why I said in the first place ALS on a road car without a throttle jack isn't likely to hurt a turbo.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Sorry about this Andy but he may be right. It would be a good idea if you spoke to someone who knows what they are doing before running these motorsport features. A good starting point would be someone who develops these systems and supplies their Ecu's worldwide with race winning results.

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

Yes this is what I am trying to figure out. So this isnt "proper" anti lag because it doesnt give you the raised EGT's and positive manifold pressure so you might get a tiny benefit from the system with slightly increased throttle response but it wont give any "measurable" benefit is that correct?

Yes it increases the manifold pressure by half a bar, but it is still in vacuum so it isn't bringing in positive boost readings.

Proper anti lag with a positive manifold pressure will go through manifolds and turbos like there is no tomorrow.

Andy Stevens

Yes, this is proper anti lag. The clue is in the fact that it reduces lag, as demonstrated by the video.

The misunderstanding stems from the fact that you don't understand how Anti Lag works.

First, you have to increase airflow.
This will increase the engine speed.
Then you have to fire a percentage of late sparks and add some fuel to ignite the charge late so that some energy is released past the exhaust valve to the turbine. The turbine spins the impeller and compresses inlet charge. This brings the engine speed back down.

The point you are not getting is that he ICV will only flow so much air.

If you want a greater increase in manifold pressure you have to use a throttle jacker. This is a mechanism to open the throttle by a certain amount. It could be a secondary solenoid activated throttle stop, or a choke cable. Using a throttle angle of 20% I have seen positive boost at idle, but this is when EGTs do start to climb and this is when it becomes dangerous. Too high an EGT will melt spark plug tips and melt exhaust valve heads, This will destroy an engine.

It also means that the brake booster will not work as it will not have a vacuum to draw on.

For a road car, anything other than ICV activated ALS will be dangerous, both for the engine and the lack of brake assistance.

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

I am well aware of what ALS is and how it works

This is more for show off is the point I am making, 0.5 bar in vacuum is hardly going to make a noticeable difference on gear change is it?

This is all irrelevant to my car, I am just making the point that this isnt anti lag in the truest sense of the word and wont damage your turbo, manifolds, gaskets etc, it might give you a tiny benefit but I would be hard pushed to see a difference in driving with the ALS on. But it is perfect for the pops and bangs

I would also point out that any reduction in vacuum would have an effect on braking force, so be careful lads!
I cant wait to get my FFS enabled

Andy Stevens

Without wishing to be rude, most of what you have written here shows that you don't have a good understanding of it. You now seem to be confusing the role of flatshift and ALS, and you can't seem to grasp the fact that there is an ICV airflow limit.

What I am saying is an increase of 0.5 bar is extremely significant and makes a big difference in response. It is also all you will get out of ICV activated ALS regardless if the ECU system used. With respect, if you haven't tried it you won't know.

Andy Stevens

I'll admit to be a little taken aback by that comment.

Maybe I can reassure you with a bit of information about our company.

ESL consists of two engineers, both qualified at degree level and both originally working in the defence sector.

I've got a degree in mechanical engineering from Bristol and a degree in Computer Science from Cambridge, so a pretty good background for engine management development.

I'm not the brains behind the company. Our firmware programmer also consults on such projects as Eurofighter Typhoon. It's a pretty good pedigree.

Before any system upgrade is developed research papers are drafted and go out worldwide to our peers for comment.

As an example, here is the effort we went to on our mafless algorithm, the subject of a year long thesis at Cranfield university. A similar amount of effort was expended on the motorsports features.

http://www.enduringsolutions.com/ESLMLSalgo.pdf

We have sold alot of ECUs all over the world and they are in all sorts of competition cars.

As an example, here is our LC system in development in conjunction with RaceDynamix and FastJaps versus Ken Block at Madrid last year. Note the wagon isn't running flatshift at this point and has less than half the power of KBs car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACvUASsacE0#t=26

In short, no one else in the world has got as far as we have with the early JECS ECUs. It wouldn't be possible to get as far as we have with them if we didn't know what we were doing.

JGlanzaV

iTrader: (3)

Im not confusing them at all? I was making two separate points. I completely understand how ALS and FFS work, and I also understand the role of the IACV in it, it can only flow a certain amount of air, so you max out at 0.5bar increase, which is fine for some applications. But I do not consider still running in negative vac a huge benefit, I have it on my car and the difference you get in response you loose out on by having to brake earlier due to decreased braking power.

But again, none of this applies to my car anywho. The ALS never gets used because I find it pointless, the FFS and LC will get used on the drag strip for the purpose of which it is intended, If I can keep my 2 bar throughout the length of the strip it should definitely help my times.

If I do go down the route of proper ALS I will be fitting the electric vacuum pump I have sat in the workshop, but I havent seen any need to have it yet.

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Andy you fool, you are the person in the latter part of my comment! Nudge, nudge, wink, wink!

Welloilbeefhooked

iTrader: (3)

Andy, last question from me on the ms stuff. I fitted my standard downpipe with cat for the mot. I suppose I already know the answer but I am assuming the ms package is not nice on cats?

Ps sorted the switch issue. Changed my mind on the type.