pslewis

^^ Odd that, a Teacher saying they have too much to do^^

Teachers should do 1 year in a job in industry so that they appreciate what it's actually really like working 60 hours a week ............ these jobs don't count marking some papers while sat by the pool in Barbados as work (like Teachers may do) ...

DYK

I don't get paid if I take a day off sick either

paulr

Don't
Feed
The
Troll.

ScoobyDoo555

I never said I was in Barbados. Are you stalking me?

and FWIW, my "other" job is mixing - a 20 hour/day job. I go back into Education for a break

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

No car...no chance.

Travelling expenses? Only if she has to go on school business and over 20 miles. So meetings with the LA etc...not paid.

Pete: you are guessing...you don't know my wife. If any teacher wasn't doing their job properly, they'd better watch out!

She MOCKS other industry leaders and their mis-management.

neil-h

Oh nooooooooo

pslewis

Interesting ref the travelling expenses .... is that a national agreed limit of 20 miles?

Some Heads may have said to the Governors that they will not claim travelling if the school funds a lease car for them ..... I do wonder about this 20 mile limit - can you post a link?

I'm glad your wife does not take slackers and protect them ... I guess she abuses the TLR System though to retain those she thinks valuable to her school?

As for mocking industry leaders ... that's easy to do from the comfort of a LEA secure job, from a position where funds come in regardless of performance, from a job where there is no need to generate an income for those they are responsible for, there are many industry leaders in charge of multi-million ££ projects who earn the same £65k.

If they fail they lose their job .... and others do too. Your wife is lucky to be cushioned so well - it gives her the cahnce to take shots from the protection of the LEA castle.

That said, I'm absolutely sure she is excellent at her particular task. It's just not even close to the real world, as we all know - if we are genuine in our appraisal of the situation.

LSherratt

iTrader: (1)

Lol

wrx300scooby

Having spent twenty odd years in the engineering industry and then a further twenty six in teaching secondary I feel I am qualified to respond here.
Last summer I retired from teaching mainly because of the changes that have taken place in recent years. Never before, in any of my jobs, have I been so scrutinised and that included me designing major parts for Ford and other car makers in the seventies and eighties. I would not consider going into the teaching profession as things are today and cannot understand anyone wanting to. Teaching today is very different from what it was when I started, constant monitoring and appraisal on top of all the responsibilities of being a peacemaker, social worker, ect make it a job that is not an attractive one! Rant over.

pslewis

Yet you stayed until the bitter end ...... I do hope you enjoy your index linked final salary pension based on 1/60th x number of years service.

That's 26/60th's - nearly half salary, for the rest of your life, index linked - not bad at all.

Most would give their right arm to retire on a Pension of £25,000 linked to CPI ..

But, your point that it's tougher now than 26 years ago is a valid one.

However, it bears no relevance when you stop and think how the rest of the working country has been changed - sadly, most don't get 14 weeks off to re-charge their batteries as Teachers do.

They also don't get 2 or 3 payrises a year - as Teachers do.

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

Let's have a look at the legacy of 70's/80's UK car industry.

Strikes, mis-management, closed shop's, wage demand's, rampant militant's and a dire product.

Thank f**k you went into teaching, you should be spotting some very similar trends.

wrx300scooby

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

No, It's local, North Lincs.

In what way is that abusing the system? TLR stands for Teaching and Learning Retention, as I'm sure you are aware. It's used so that a school can hang on to it's GOOD staff without them being poached by larger, more well-off schools. Is that wrong??? Teachers at her school EARN their TLR's if they get one...and there aren't that many in a primary, as you must know.

Would that it were so. If the school starts to go down the performance tables, they lose pupils. If they lose pupils, they lose income and thus staff. Once you start to lose staff, your targets become harder to meet, so you drop lower, lose more pupils etc etc.
I know of one school in this town now closed because it got into that cycle and couldn't get out.......parents WILL NOT opt to send their children to a school perceived to be failing.

As for industry leaders on £65k...I very much doubt it. And THEY will have health care, company cars, shares in the company, profit sharing, bonuses etc etc. NO teacher gets ONE PENNY for overtime, no matter how much they do...and they do!


See my comment above about losing out due to missing targets. And yes, she CAN be removed if the school drops below a certain level. What do you think these new academies are all about? You surely don't believe the old head continues, do you?

Not excellent...outstanding, and nationally recognised as such

No...it's a DAMNED sight harder....I bet she works more hours than most folk on her salary.
And spends a LOT of time trying to make naughty children behave, and their stupid parents see why their kids SHOULD behave.

Out of interest, when was the last time one of your projects told YOU to f*ck off!?

The problem, Pete, is that you are a clever bloke, with a LITTLE knowledge of schools. But from the OUTside...you've never worked in one, never been in front of a class, never run one.
And a little knowledge is a dangerous thing

paulr

How will performance related pay work. If it £ per grade, surely all the best teachers will move to the best areas.
Because everyone knows, the major factor in how well a kid does at school, is their background.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Exactly.

But has that been thought out? Nope. Yet someone like yourself, from OUTside the profession, can see it.

Pete keeps banging on about three pay rises a year, yet everyone knows that's just not true.

SOME get an increment.....it's a way of getting younger teachers in, then getting them to STAY, but paying them not very much to start with.....or at least, it was.

NOW increments can be withheld...at the whim of the headteacher, (who, of course is ALSO under pressure to save money). Funny eh?

And the yearly payrise? As I've said elsewhere, withheld for the last three years, less than inflation for the last fifteen.

Where his THIRD yearly payrise comes in, no-one knows.........

Does anyone know of ANY other profession where it's professionals are graded every twelve weeks? Well ALL teachers are. Not every year or so, EVERY TERM.

paulr

All that will happen is the best teachers go to the best schools, ie best pay, most enthusiastic kids. Crap teachers go to crap schools.
End result, education inequality.

hodgy0_2

yes, this is what I was getting at

it is the same sort of thing with doctors, performance related pay, and medical "outcomes"

what is the incentive for all the brilliant surgeons to do pioneering cutting edge brain surgery, the outcomes with be % wise - low, an example of poor performance, or just a reflection of challenging conditions

best stick to ingrowing toenails

paulr

My next door neighbours wife had severe cancer. They struggled to find a surgeon to operate, because if the chance of survival is low, there is a high chance it could damage their success rate.

( luckily they found someone and she is okay)

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

http://www.theguardian.com/education...0k-performance

"Despite vocal objections from unions, most teachers welcome the principle behind it. A YouGov poll for the report published in September found that 89% of teachers want to be paid based on the quality of their teaching."

Something here doesn't add up; the teachers welcome it, the unions don't - so they aren't representing their members - yet they strike?

jods

Going on strike is sooooo blue collar and working class.

paulr

How do you judge a teachers performance?

hodgy0_2

precisely, glad she is doing OK

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

From an NHS perspective.... the Teachers, Fire, Plod and the like are never going to get much sympathy because historically they have much better pensions, holidays, working conditions and pay.

Sorry Alcazar.

Shaun

Dingdongler

I've never joined the teacher bashing threads and am not about to. However I'm very jealous of the pension, why do they get 1/60th and I only get 1/80th?

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

An agreement with HMG partly to cover lower pay at the time, and partly so that HMG could "take over" the teacher's pension pot, which was doing very well thankyou.....

Since then, of course, HMG continually gives low figures for what said pot would have contained, and are even now saying they can no longer afford to pay the pensions....tough...you had the money.

Give back what would be in it now, and teachers will pay their own pensions, thanks.

pslewis

Errrrm, no you're wrong ... please put your wife on the line then I can talk to someone who actually knows whats what as I do ....

TLR stands for Teaching and Learning RESPONSIBILITY ........ although your slip actually reveals what Heads use it for!!

It is NOT to be used as a retention lever!

I've heard so much **** and bull over the TLR payment awards that it would make the taxpayers toes curl !!!!

How about a TLR Payment of £8000 to look after the External Learning Environment? Yes, that would be the PLAYGROUND!

And a TLR Payment of £5750 to look after the Information Access Portal? Yes, the NOTICE BOARD!!

These are in ADDITION to the Teachers pay of, generally, £38,000 - so, look after the Playground and you get £38,000 + £8,000 = £46,000 ...... contracted hours = 26 per week!

It's a gravy train and it's about time the Taxpayers demanded a stop to it!

pslewis

1. Annual Increase .... it has been pegged at 1% - but it is STILL an increase!

2. Incremental rise annually ... never, ever, been denied - and when the top is reached, then you go up another scale called UPS!!!

3. TLR Payment awarded annually. This is safeguarded for THREE years (even if the Teacher no longer is carrying out the duties for which it was allocated!). TLR Payments do a cycle around the Teaching Staff, each 3 years. If the TLR payment is £12,000 then that's equivalent to a £4,000 payrise each and every year!

So, there you have it ..... 3 payrises per year - easy to do and manipulated to achieve big annual increases!

pslewis

You forget that they can retire at 50 too!!

Retire at 50 after 30 years service = 1/2 final pay, index linked!!

From 50 onwards they go into supply Teaching for £500 a day .... of course, they work the basic hours then (you don't see supply Teachers working on!) - they do the absolute 26 hours for £2500 a week.

So, from 50 to around 60 - 10 years - they receive an index linked Pension of around £25,000 a year and around £100,000 a year from Supply!

If Carlsberg did jobs ............................

^Qwerty^

Sadly, that is not the case at the Goole High Academy, which recently went in to special measures, but the two 'exec' heads blame OFSTED for raising standards, rather than anything else. One of their statements to the local rag reads something like, "we've made massive improvements to the school, but because OFSTED have raised the bar, we've been placed in to SM" That to me reads that they should have been in SM's under the old rules anyway.

Even more shocking is that one of this pair from the chuckle brothers seems to spend more time glammed up and mixing it with local business leaders and getting their pictures in the papers than actually trying to run and improve the school.

And guess who's fault it was when they sent a letter (email) out to over 1000 parents but only seven turned up to the meeting to discuss and explain why the school had been placed in SM's?

I feel for the parents which don't have a choice to send their children to another school now; Howden, where I live is just as bad (from what I hear), Snaith is full, so you've got little choice but to send your kids to a failing school. My eldest goes to school in Hull. It costs me a bloody fortune, but I'd quite like to give him the best start in life rather than have him assigned to the scrap heap before he's even started.

And talking about Howden School, when that went in to special measures the head was remove/resigned and two heads were brought in from another school. They stood up in an open meeting, in front of ~200 parents and said the school had bad/poor/crap teachers, but it was difficult to get rid of them and the process could take up to 9 months. A year later, we were invited to another meeting, and somebody asked the question, "How many of the bad/poor/crap teachers have you got rid of which you mentioned a year ago". The answer was NONE.

So never mind performance rated pay, we need the ability to measure and remove poor teachers from the profession, rather than shuffling them from one school to the next.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Yes, OK, I hold my hands up for the word mixup.

But YES, that's what it's for...retention. It's what it was designed for and implemented for and what decent heads use it for. To keep their decent staff.

As for the rest of your rant......it wouldn't happen in a modern primary, Never...there just aren't TLRs like that, or enough to go round.

And, of course, the £38,000 you quote is just made up......look at the GOVERNMENT website for details:

Main pay ranges, including NQTs:

• London fringe: £22,853 to £32,914
• Outer London: £25,369 to £35,468
• Inner London: £27,270 to £36,751
• Rest of England and Wales: £21,804 to £31,868

So even in CENTRAL London, the maximum is £36,751.


And in the rest of the UK, a young NQT starts on £21,804...remember that's with a MINIMUM of a 2:1 now, and with FOUR years' training after "A" levels.


That's a long way from your fairytale figures Pete.