hi there, i have an 05 sti running 440bhp and at the moment i have performance friction z pads in my gold brembo calipers with dba4000 grooved discs and braided lines with high temp fluid, my question is what pads would be suitable for road and track as i can fade the pf z`s on snetterton after about 3 hard laps. I have ferrodo ds2500 in my clio 182 track car and these have been hammered with no fade but it weighs about 500kg less, is there anything with a goodish cold bite that wont fade like the pf z`s.

 

Carborn Lorraine rc6 but they squeak at low speeds unless you get some back plates and are very dusty so need to clean wheels regularly, I use these and got absolutely no fade at Caldwell for good 30-45 minute sessions, my tyres boiled before my brakes did,

 

although the "Z" is not an out and out track pad i woul be very suprised if indeed you are fading them..........more likely your fluid is over-heating??

what sort of track days, what spec of fluid and how aggressive are you?? also what rear brakes do you have as this will affect how much "work/heat" the fronts see...........

would potentially go down the 08 PFC type or possibly 07 if you want somethng more aggressive BUT you will want high spec fluid and rears also................

alyn

 

I run carbotech, they are great on track but quite squealy on the road, I run XP10's, basically the higher the number the more track focused they are.

Weird that you get fade after 3 laps, like Alyn has suggested maybe the fluid needs changing?

 

Hi thanks for the replies, it's defo not the fluid as I put in brand new gulf competition with a dry boiling point of 300 degrees c and the pedal was still rock hard feel just getting lots of judder like warped front discs and not stopping after 3 maybe 4 laps,only to go back to normal once they have cooled abit ie no judder and drive faultless, defo felt like pad fade, snetterton as you know is a very fast track and I am quite aggressive on them. I have Godspeed grooved discs and bluestuff rear pads which were advised by him.

 

Carbotech XP10's all round and you'll not go wrong with them. They take some abuse and just keep on biting.

 

"judder" is not fade?? sounds like potentially you have more than one basic issue......

IMO the rear pads are not up to the job either and you'd be better speccing a F&R "set"

alyn

 

hi, yes i realize judder isnt fade but when i have a rock hard peddle, and the pads are not actually stopping the car after the brakes are very hot like going from 120-150mph as hard as i can down to 40-60 mph a few times a lap for say 4 laps, i first thought id warped the discs, come into the paddock to cool down then the felt fine again, did more heavy braking 3 laps later...felt like warped discs and not stopping....hard pedal....cooled them down and perfectly fine again. The car/steering drives tight and definitely feels like pad fade. Must admit not sure if i really like the bluestuff so may have to invest in a decent front / rear pad combo thats up to the task

 

Blue stuff??? Thought you are using pf z rated?
Have you got grooved discs? As that's where the juddering will be coming from with the gases escaping through groves.
Edit- just realised that your using grooved discs, I personally have gone off grooved discs as they are not good for track and hard driving when upto temps IMO, for the hardest drivers I would only recommend plain Brembo type discs or good quality and not the cheap metal stuff with a very good pad for your needs, that way if you get fade depending on pad then at least it won't judder, but tbh it's just the groves that are making it judder and maybe the quality of discs and the metal mix type that's used when manufactured that can't handle that hot heat you are putting through them as to why you might be getting fade.

 

yea pf z`s front / bluestuff rear, i was going to put pf z`s rear too but ian from godspeed said to put bluestuff in the rear as they would work well with the pf z`s. Just not sure what to put in now as i hate this set up and its not cheap to trial pads when we have to pay for them.... oh yes grooved discs front and rear.

 

And maybe your calipers are sticky?

 

i agree with you re discs, i run brembo high carbon plain discs and ferodo ds2500 pads on my track clio and give them hell and i mean hell abs cutting in at 90+ mph never once had fade or judder but it is a lighter car...oh and calipers are defo not sticky as checked already

 

Carbotech XP16's - I run them in my racecar and have to say the pad/disc combo I have stops like nothing I have ever driven before.

Balance comes into it a lot I think - if you have too much bias based on your caliper size / compound / effective stopping at the front or rear then you may feel like you're not stopping enough and over cook them trying to get too much out.

I found I had to really up-rate the rears to keep the car braking evenly and this is something I am now finding with my road car. The brakes are savage at the front but sloppy at the rear. Subsequently the back end goes light and I have ineffective braking.

I know the chaps at Carbotech will cut a pad for you - going to see what some XP12 fronts and XP10 rears feel like on the road / little track sessions with some beefy Nitrac discs I think.

 

What are you on about ?

Gases escaping out of grooves will NEVER make a disc judder ! why are you giving out incorrect information ? When pads get hot they give off gasses , the most effective way of dispersing the gases is with grooved discs , touring cars , rally cars ect , all use grooved discs , do you think they would be using them if they didn't work ?

Judder will most probably be caused by pad deposits , and this is caused by going over the temps the pads are designed for , it is certainly not gasses escaping !

 

Yes your pad setup would work very well for 95% of track day users , but if your a harder driver than the average hard track day driver then it is going to be a bit of trial and error to find the best set up for you , I'm constantly trying new pads in my rally car to find the best setup for me , out of all the pads I have tried there has always been a compromise somewhere.

Agree with the above the XP 16's are a very good track pad , took a bit of warming up but then they were very good , I just didn't find they were suitable for me rallying as I wanted a pad that gets up to temp quicker

 

You will not find a pad that satisfies your needs fully , as a road car and then as an all out track pad , if you could make a pad that would cover all uses with no downsides then you would sell millions of them !

Putting a pad on that would suit the hardest trackdays would be a pain everyday driving , you would get squeel most of the time , they would chew through discs , and the metal filings off the discs would stick to the wheels and side of the car and go rusty when it rains.

But then putting pads that would suit everyday and fast road use will fade with very hard track use , TBH you are asking the impossible , the only way you can really do it is by having a track pad and fit them for your track days , and swap back to your fast road pads all other times.

 

Chill winston, the gas escaping can feel like judder to the op, maybe it's not actually judder but to the op, that's his best description about it he can give as the noise he's getting from the grooves when at temps, to him feels like judder . And if he has pad deposits on his discs with pf z rated then the discs are **** IMO. Pf should not fade full stop. Grooves may work but are too noisy IMO and never had problem with Brembo discs and never faded, so the gas must be getting out, after all they are vented.
And after all we are the testers and you are the seller
Please don't try compare your grooved discs against brembos
I remember you trying to sort out my 335 discs, saying, fluid, rust in rotas, pads glazing disc etc and in the end I found it to be the cast iron calipers that can't handle the high heat of temps.

 

Performance friction PF08 pads up front for me, so far go good. Will be doing some sprints shortly see how they fair on there

 

Brake guru! Answer you're PM's please

 

Sigh !

Your set up will be not give off gases as most pads would as you are using a very hard aggressive pad , a pad that most would not put up with fitted to a road car , occasional track car because of the trade off the Carbon Lorraine pads give , they chew discs , they make a mess of your wheels , and leave metal up the side of the car which goes rusty , I have tried them and know exactly what they are like.

You say your gases escape because you have vented discs , how does this happen then , the vented section is a gap between the inside and outside of the disc , its not a vent to vent the gases , if your going to give advice out at least know what your talking about.

Gases given off a pad will never ever cause juddering so I don't even know why you're suggesting this ?? the only trade off from grooved discs is a whirring noise braking hard , nothing else , a grooved disc will not judder because of gasses escaping.

PF Z rated pads are a fast road pad , and can be faded , the OP sounds like he is fading them , hard pedal but no braking is a classic example of pad fade , they are not a race pad so please don't say they will never fade as they clearly are on this occasion.

You did not find the problem that your original cast iron calipers can't handle high temps , they can , but you would need to run a higher spec pad than an alloy caliper to do it , with the right pads fitted to suit the application , the 335mm kit with the standard calipers can take any abuse you want to throw at them , we have a few customers rallying with this setup and with DS3000 pads cannot fade them , i'm sure if you fitted a pad in line with what you have fitted now they would have coped with your needs

 

Wrong. Grooves/ scallops do work - the gas is given off by the pads when hot so the grooves allow it to escape- and they are not noisy. Vented discs mean the discs are hollow, not solid - the vents allow the heat inside the discs to escape and have nothing to do with the gas from the pads.

Most likely cause of judder is pad deposition due to the DS 2500 getting too hot - they are well known for it on scooby weight cars.

My set up - PF rotors from AS Performance/ZEN and Pagid rs 4-2 (my brakes run at up to 600C on track days) - which works well.



PF pads ( and indeed any pads) will fade if the temps they are seeing are too high i.e. if they are the wrong spec for the performance they are trying to cope with. As an example, Ferodo DS3000 would work for the situation described by the OP, but they have a terrible squeal and low initial bite when cold and will eat the discs/ wheels etc.

 

Lol and here comes the business man talk as alway,
I'm not talking about my set up here, so carbotechs are not similar? Any race pad would chew discs, if the discs aren't getting worn then what's the point in the pad? There are plenty pads out there that chew discs, and I think you are saying it like they chew discs within 1 track session, which your wrong, steel cheap discs maybe, but that another can of worms which I don't want to go, as I'm better than that.

The whirring noise as you suggest is true, but I'm just trying to make sense for the op, after all that's what we are talking about and trying to understand his problem.
And are you suggesting a fast road pad for op then, as he has stated that he dives hard or the 'hardest' driver,( got to be Carefull with my words as that could confuse you buyers).
Most people, yes I agree would not want a race pad for road use but then still want it to preform when given death on track and then come back on here saying I got fade etc and need pad that's better, does that not suggest that they need a better pad in first place instead of a fast road pad that's NOT recommended for hard use on track as a lot of it is been advertised as? This is what does my head in as it's just emptying our pockets and lining others on a regular basis, when not needed.

And your comment about the 335 kit I had, I used pad on your recomendation.
And your wrong I tried 3 diffrent types with constant talks from yourself and for me to send them over to you after trying diffrent venues, good job, because it's the calipers at fault with the 'hardest' driver FACT! Not fiction. So let's not go there please.
you may know more than me which I accept, but you can't judge my experiences, think your only jumping the gun as it may infringe the beneficial factor, but as the op is saying, he probably drives the car very hard and needs a set up that going to work for his needs so lets stay on that shall we as I want to keep the lid on the can

 

Never said the vents didn't work.
I said they are too noisy IMO, and the groves from yours are diffrent to what I've used and when hot the ARE noisy IMO.
Thanks so another pad there that will squeal, eat discs and wheels
Nice one fella await Ian on that comment.

 

So in all let's wait for the op to say what he needs and what his intentions are and wether he wants to use a race pad for track and road or just change pad for diffrent events.

 

Hi guys, do you use your pads on road? And how do they preform on a daily drive? Are they overkill? Do the eat your discs? And are they dusty?

I can answer this myself but would like your input to the questions I've asked please.
Mine on a daily drive are perfect, I don't need to slam on, just touch not push and they are fine, the bite is good apart from squealing a low speeds which a lot of race pads do.
Regards

 

Ians right about you can't get a one pad fits all,if you could I would be running them.i know there is always a compromise with different compounds some working from cold but then tailing off when abused and others needing a bit of a warm up before they start biting hard but then they can maintain there efficiency.

 

Yes I use mine on the road and have no problems with them at all. Little bit noisy when stone cold but that's the trade off for competition pads. There is good bite from cold too. I use Bremtech grooved discs and have no excessive noise or vibration from them, even when hot. They've done quite a bit of very hard work (glowing ) and don't seem to be wearing much at all. Definitely not the most expensive disc but I don't feel the need to have 2 piece discs to brag about in the pub. I just want stuff that works properly at a reasonable price. Carbotech's are notoriously dusty but with regular cleaning and dark wheels it's not too bad.
This is when they were new.