Brakes - Best Options - Long Post Warning
23 September 2009, 12:52 PM
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Brakes - Best Options - Long Post Warning
Hi Guys,
Brakes again – I know it’s been done to death etc but I have got a few questions for you.
What would be the best brake set for me?
Currently I have got factory original discs with Pagid 4-2-1 pads all round. My disc’s are getting a bit warn now so I want look at the options for upgrading. I have never been happy with the Pagid pads since they were fitted. Don’t get me wrong they bite well but they squeal like a pig being raped by a horse constantly, especially at low speeds round town. They have done so for the past 2 years that they have been fitted so I want to replace them as well.
Now I don’t go mad with my brakes and have never experienced brake fad, either because I don’t drive hard enough or because in fact the uprated but noisy pads have been doing their job. I just want a decent set up with good bite that don’t squeal. I am however considering a track day next year so they may be worth thinking about, although I doubt it will become a regular thing. So with that in mind what would be the best option for me and my car which is a 2003 STi Type UK (4 Pot Brembo’s):
Option 1 – Back to OEM pads and disks, this was what was fitted to the car when I first got and didn’t really notice an issue the pads were replaced after a month of ownership.
But I have had massively different prices from a ridicules £800+ from one garage to £150 of the internet, what sort of price is a fair price for genuine/OEM front disc and pad? One price seems too high, the other too cheap.
Option 2 – OEM disks with uprated pads, but which pads, I have searched and read good reviews of the Ferodo DS2500 pads but am a little concerned that I will spend out on uprated pads and end up with pig brakes again.
With this option there is always the possibility of uprating the discs at a later date as well I guess. But is there any really benefit in having just uprated pads and standard discs?
Option 3 – “Lower end” after market products. Such as EBC disc and pads but I have read mixed reviews about EBC and I seem to have an image of poor quality towards EBC, don’t know why I have this perception as I never used one of their products, perhaps its because every kid in Max Power seems to love EBC? Are EBC in fact good? Or should they be avaioded?
Option 4 – Performance Friction Disc and Ferodo DS2500 pads. From what I can read these seem to be very highly rated, although also very expensive. Is the expense justified, what benefits does the PF set up actually give and will I notice it as an average driver on the road? Or is the benefit only noticeable on a track? Also do the grooves and dimples make the set up noisy at all?
Option 5 – Something else, please suggest – but why would this option be better than any of the above?
Sorry for all the questions (at the ridiculously long post) just trying to full understand all my options before parting with potentially a lot of hard earned.
Cheers
Chris
Brakes again – I know it’s been done to death etc but I have got a few questions for you.
What would be the best brake set for me?
Currently I have got factory original discs with Pagid 4-2-1 pads all round. My disc’s are getting a bit warn now so I want look at the options for upgrading. I have never been happy with the Pagid pads since they were fitted. Don’t get me wrong they bite well but they squeal like a pig being raped by a horse constantly, especially at low speeds round town. They have done so for the past 2 years that they have been fitted so I want to replace them as well.
Now I don’t go mad with my brakes and have never experienced brake fad, either because I don’t drive hard enough or because in fact the uprated but noisy pads have been doing their job. I just want a decent set up with good bite that don’t squeal. I am however considering a track day next year so they may be worth thinking about, although I doubt it will become a regular thing. So with that in mind what would be the best option for me and my car which is a 2003 STi Type UK (4 Pot Brembo’s):
Option 1 – Back to OEM pads and disks, this was what was fitted to the car when I first got and didn’t really notice an issue the pads were replaced after a month of ownership.
But I have had massively different prices from a ridicules £800+ from one garage to £150 of the internet, what sort of price is a fair price for genuine/OEM front disc and pad? One price seems too high, the other too cheap.
Option 2 – OEM disks with uprated pads, but which pads, I have searched and read good reviews of the Ferodo DS2500 pads but am a little concerned that I will spend out on uprated pads and end up with pig brakes again.
With this option there is always the possibility of uprating the discs at a later date as well I guess. But is there any really benefit in having just uprated pads and standard discs?
Option 3 – “Lower end” after market products. Such as EBC disc and pads but I have read mixed reviews about EBC and I seem to have an image of poor quality towards EBC, don’t know why I have this perception as I never used one of their products, perhaps its because every kid in Max Power seems to love EBC? Are EBC in fact good? Or should they be avaioded?
Option 4 – Performance Friction Disc and Ferodo DS2500 pads. From what I can read these seem to be very highly rated, although also very expensive. Is the expense justified, what benefits does the PF set up actually give and will I notice it as an average driver on the road? Or is the benefit only noticeable on a track? Also do the grooves and dimples make the set up noisy at all?
Option 5 – Something else, please suggest – but why would this option be better than any of the above?
Sorry for all the questions (at the ridiculously long post) just trying to full understand all my options before parting with potentially a lot of hard earned.
Cheers
Chris
23 September 2009, 12:55 PM
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i think you need to decide if you gonna get more into track days as a whole. if so then ap 6pots are by far your best option.
if not then option 4, brakes are the only thing, except a wall, that stops you.
like tyres being the only thing touching the road. cheap stuff will fail when you need it the most
if not then option 4, brakes are the only thing, except a wall, that stops you.
like tyres being the only thing touching the road. cheap stuff will fail when you need it the most
Last edited by Tidgy; 23 September 2009 at 12:58 PM.
23 September 2009, 01:13 PM
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i think you need to decide if you gonna get more into track days as a whole. if so then ap 6pots are by far your best option.
if not then option 4, brakes are the only thing, except a wall, that stops you.
like tyres being the only thing touching the road. cheap stuff will fail when you need it the most
if not then option 4, brakes are the only thing, except a wall, that stops you.
like tyres being the only thing touching the road. cheap stuff will fail when you need it the most
But what makes the PF and DS2500 setup so good? Is it just a resistance to brake fade or will they pull up quicker too? As I have said I have never experienced brake fad in the Impreza, would the extra outlay be worth it in this instance?
99% of my driving will be road driving with the odd blast. Only a very small amount of driving will be on a track day....and since I have never done a track day before I doubt I will be pushing that hard
23 September 2009, 06:23 PM
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Hi Bob,
Thanks for the offer, in fact i have been looking at your website to get some rough ideas of pricing.
What are your normal hours of trading? i can call on Friday afternoon if your open, really busy at work tomorrow from early till late.
Thanks for the offer, in fact i have been looking at your website to get some rough ideas of pricing.
What are your normal hours of trading? i can call on Friday afternoon if your open, really busy at work tomorrow from early till late.
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23 September 2009, 07:29 PM
#8
For my needs, I'd never buy anything other than PF discs and pads but for normal road use it might be a little overkill. I do alot of track days and PF have exceeded my expectations both in performance and longevity. My current discs have lasted numerous trackdays and almost 400 laps of the Nurburgring in the past 18 months. Z pads are great on the road and for occasional track, 01 pads are epically good on track but chew discs on the road.
If you're just using it for road use I'd probably keep the OEM discs and maybe run DS2500 or PF Z pads.
If you're just using it for road use I'd probably keep the OEM discs and maybe run DS2500 or PF Z pads.
23 September 2009, 07:32 PM
#9
Hi Cockney Wideboy. Recognise the name from your car being on the front page! 
Read my post here about OE vs DS2500
https://www.scoobynet.com/wheels-tyr...ds-ds2500.html
I was running ebay special grooved disks (130 quid for all 4). However i cracked the front two badly at bovington (no brake warm up or cool down). Apart from that they lasted a good 3/4 track days without issue. They replaced the disks for free for me.
Read my post here about OE vs DS2500
https://www.scoobynet.com/wheels-tyr...ds-ds2500.html
I was running ebay special grooved disks (130 quid for all 4). However i cracked the front two badly at bovington (no brake warm up or cool down). Apart from that they lasted a good 3/4 track days without issue. They replaced the disks for free for me.
23 September 2009, 10:12 PM
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For my needs, I'd never buy anything other than PF discs and pads but for normal road use it might be a little overkill. I do alot of track days and PF have exceeded my expectations both in performance and longevity. My current discs have lasted numerous trackdays and almost 400 laps of the Nurburgring in the past 18 months. Z pads are great on the road and for occasional track, 01 pads are epically good on track but chew discs on the road.
If you're just using it for road use I'd probably keep the OEM discs and maybe run DS2500 or PF Z pads.
If you're just using it for road use I'd probably keep the OEM discs and maybe run DS2500 or PF Z pads.
.Hi Cockney Wideboy. Recognise the name from your car being on the front page!
Read my post here about OE vs DS2500
https://www.scoobynet.com/wheels-tyr...ds-ds2500.html
I was running ebay special grooved disks (130 quid for all 4). However i cracked the front two badly at bovington (no brake warm up or cool down). Apart from that they lasted a good 3/4 track days without issue. They replaced the disks for free for me.
Read my post here about OE vs DS2500
https://www.scoobynet.com/wheels-tyr...ds-ds2500.html
I was running ebay special grooved disks (130 quid for all 4). However i cracked the front two badly at bovington (no brake warm up or cool down). Apart from that they lasted a good 3/4 track days without issue. They replaced the disks for free for me.
I'm still getting hate mail about that
Interesting read, thanks for the link. For what I use the car for OEM discs with top quality pads seems a good option.....although what is this combination like from a noisy point of view? I was lead to believe that the Pagid 4-2-1 pads were quiet
I have never had such noisy brakes in all my life....i'm now paranoid that all uprated pads squeal like little miss piggy constantly
24 September 2009, 12:03 AM
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if your driving in the peaks then def the option i mentioned. i'm pretty often in the area myself and you can heat them up very well indeed lol
as you say your not going to do lots of track days then option 4 is the best one. not worth scrimping on it.
as you say your not going to do lots of track days then option 4 is the best one. not worth scrimping on it.
24 September 2009, 08:05 AM
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I'm running DS2500's on OEM discs on my WRX and they've been good. Noticed the difference and it was a good wee upgrade before I was thinking about forking out for better discs as well.
Never had any squealing from the DS's either.
Never had any squealing from the DS's either.
24 September 2009, 08:49 AM
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with brakes (as with lots of things) its what suits yourself/driving style rather than anyone else that is important
as a general rule the likes of Pagid rs4.2.1, Ferodo ds2500, etc. are pretty reasonable noise wise however on the Brembo equipped cars in particular you can suffer from a build up of pad debris that WILL cause noise problems regardless of manufacturer.............
from what you have said i would personally recomend a good quality replacement disc with a similiar pad to what your using now as that has done exactly what you require it to
alyn
as a general rule the likes of Pagid rs4.2.1, Ferodo ds2500, etc. are pretty reasonable noise wise however on the Brembo equipped cars in particular you can suffer from a build up of pad debris that WILL cause noise problems regardless of manufacturer.............
from what you have said i would personally recomend a good quality replacement disc with a similiar pad to what your using now as that has done exactly what you require it to
alyn
25 September 2009, 04:48 PM
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Hi Guys,
Many thanks for your input on the to help me make an informed decision, especially Bob at Aztec performance who has had me bending his ear for nearly 25mins.
Top bloke and very knowledgeable and helpful
Would defiantly recommend giving him a call if your a little unsure of what’s best for you/your car...even after taking 25mins of his time there was absolutely no pressure to place and order there and then, or even order from them at all. IMO excellent customer service and the way forward to win customers
So the verdict: Option5 - something slightly different
After reading all the replies on here and speaking with Bob I have just ordered a set of uprated grooved disc as opposed to the OEM disc. For the time being i'm keeping the Pagid pads to see how they like the uprated discs, there is still quite a lot meat left on them so just need to ensure they are worn evenly.
Also been told to make sure the "shim" plates are in place, give them a good clean to make sure there is no debris causing them to be noisey and put some more cooper grease in place. I think its agreed that they shouldn't be as noisy as they are (they really do make the car sound like a 1950’s bus when pulling up in traffic).
If i'm still not happy with the Pagid pads then they will be swapped for a set of Performance Friction Z pads.
I believe this route is right for me as it offers a good middle ground between a full PF set up and a completely OEM setup which should be all I need but there is a clear upgrade route in the future should track days start becoming a regular thing...of which I’m doubtful TBH, one a year at the very very best.
New dics arrive on Tuesday so hopefully by next weekend they will be fitted
Although another stupid question, is there a bedding in period for disc's as with pads? anyone would think I have never had a car before
Thanks again guys
Many thanks for your input on the to help me make an informed decision, especially Bob at Aztec performance who has had me bending his ear for nearly 25mins.
Top bloke and very knowledgeable and helpful
Would defiantly recommend giving him a call if your a little unsure of what’s best for you/your car...even after taking 25mins of his time there was absolutely no pressure to place and order there and then, or even order from them at all. IMO excellent customer service and the way forward to win customersSo the verdict: Option5 - something slightly different
After reading all the replies on here and speaking with Bob I have just ordered a set of uprated grooved disc as opposed to the OEM disc
. For the time being i'm keeping the Pagid pads to see how they like the uprated discs, there is still quite a lot meat left on them so just need to ensure they are worn evenly. Also been told to make sure the "shim" plates are in place, give them a good clean to make sure there is no debris causing them to be noisey and put some more cooper grease in place. I think its agreed that they shouldn't be as noisy as they are (they really do make the car sound like a 1950’s bus when pulling up in traffic).
If i'm still not happy with the Pagid pads then they will be swapped for a set of Performance Friction Z pads.
I believe this route is right for me as it offers a good middle ground between a full PF set up and a completely OEM setup which should be all I need but there is a clear upgrade route in the future should track days start becoming a regular thing...of which I’m doubtful TBH, one a year at the very very best.
New dics arrive on Tuesday so hopefully by next weekend they will be fitted
Although another stupid question
, is there a bedding in period for disc's as with pads? anyone would think I have never had a car beforeThanks again guys
26 September 2009, 08:12 AM
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I think you'll find the noise is because you're not using the pads hard enough and as Alyn mentioned its a buildup of deposits on the disk. A few big stops help clean them off.
Good decision (and advice) to stick with the pads and uprating the disks, now to bed them in properly. I'm sure people have different views on this, but I take it easy for 50-100 miles, then take it to a empty D/C and do 5 or so 70mph-20mph stops at 50% braking force, one after the other without stopping, then drive around fo a bit to let them cool - then another 5 stops 70-20 at 75% force, then cool them down (still not stopping) then finally a few 70-20 emergency stops (perhaps from higher speed if permissable) with a cool down period inbetween each one.
I do this when I change either disk or pads, works for me!
Good decision (and advice) to stick with the pads and uprating the disks, now to bed them in properly. I'm sure people have different views on this, but I take it easy for 50-100 miles, then take it to a empty D/C and do 5 or so 70mph-20mph stops at 50% braking force, one after the other without stopping, then drive around fo a bit to let them cool - then another 5 stops 70-20 at 75% force, then cool them down (still not stopping) then finally a few 70-20 emergency stops (perhaps from higher speed if permissable) with a cool down period inbetween each one.
I do this when I change either disk or pads, works for me!
Last edited by Jay m A; 26 September 2009 at 08:14 AM.
29 September 2009, 12:24 PM
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Disc's arrived today.....Look very smart
I will hopefully get time to fit them on the weekend, where is the best place to get new brake shims from? I can't remember if any were fitted the last time the brake pads were changed (I’m thinking not) so want to get some more.
Is the dealership the best bet? are they stock items?
Cheers for the reply, I’ve only ever fitted disc and pads together which obviously have a "bedding" in period, wasn't sure if the same applied to replacing disc's only...but makes sense that nay new part should be bedded in.
I will hopefully get time to fit them on the weekend, where is the best place to get new brake shims from? I can't remember if any were fitted the last time the brake pads were changed (I’m thinking not) so want to get some more.
Is the dealership the best bet? are they stock items?
I think you'll find the noise is because you're not using the pads hard enough and as Alyn mentioned its a buildup of deposits on the disk. A few big stops help clean them off.
Good decision (and advice) to stick with the pads and uprating the disks, now to bed them in properly. I'm sure people have different views on this, but I take it easy for 50-100 miles, then take it to a empty D/C and do 5 or so 70mph-20mph stops at 50% braking force, one after the other without stopping, then drive around fo a bit to let them cool - then another 5 stops 70-20 at 75% force, then cool them down (still not stopping) then finally a few 70-20 emergency stops (perhaps from higher speed if permissable) with a cool down period inbetween each one.
I do this when I change either disk or pads, works for me!
Good decision (and advice) to stick with the pads and uprating the disks, now to bed them in properly. I'm sure people have different views on this, but I take it easy for 50-100 miles, then take it to a empty D/C and do 5 or so 70mph-20mph stops at 50% braking force, one after the other without stopping, then drive around fo a bit to let them cool - then another 5 stops 70-20 at 75% force, then cool them down (still not stopping) then finally a few 70-20 emergency stops (perhaps from higher speed if permissable) with a cool down period inbetween each one.
I do this when I change either disk or pads, works for me!
29 September 2009, 01:34 PM
#18
Disc's arrived today.....Look very smart
I will hopefully get time to fit them on the weekend, where is the best place to get new brake shims from? I can't remember if any were fitted the last time the brake pads were changed (I’m thinking not) so want to get some more.
Is the dealership the best bet? are they stock items?
Cheers for the reply, I’ve only ever fitted disc and pads together which obviously have a "bedding" in period, wasn't sure if the same applied to replacing disc's only...but makes sense that nay new part should be bedded in.
I will hopefully get time to fit them on the weekend, where is the best place to get new brake shims from? I can't remember if any were fitted the last time the brake pads were changed (I’m thinking not) so want to get some more.
Is the dealership the best bet? are they stock items?
Cheers for the reply, I’ve only ever fitted disc and pads together which obviously have a "bedding" in period, wasn't sure if the same applied to replacing disc's only...but makes sense that nay new part should be bedded in.
29 September 2009, 03:15 PM
#19
They are smart aren't they! Shims available from your local dealer. When bedding the discs, take it easy for the first couple of hundred miles then start to put some heat into them. Make sure you don't come to a complete stop or stand on the brakes when you are doing it.
Check your old pads are evenly worn and not glazed.
Enjoy! Nice chatting to you.
01 October 2009, 10:08 AM
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As Bob says, I ordered a set of their uprated grooved discs, no branding on them so I don't know who makes them but they look smart.
Although Bob, had no invoice/receipt through yet? Guessing it will be sent to the billing address rather than the delivery address? Could you just check that it was sent out for me please...just want to keep for my records.
Also popped into my local dealership and got some shims today....was a bit shocked at the price at £50 for the 4 (two inners and two outers)
no wonder they were giving me prices of £600+ for a set of OEM disc at those prices
Although Bob, had no invoice/receipt through yet? Guessing it will be sent to the billing address rather than the delivery address? Could you just check that it was sent out for me please...just want to keep for my records.
Also popped into my local dealership and got some shims today....was a bit shocked at the price at £50 for the 4 (two inners and two outers)
no wonder they were giving me prices of £600+ for a set of OEM disc at those prices
02 October 2009, 08:08 AM
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02 October 2009, 09:26 PM
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Having said that - have you seen the quality of the OEM rubbish once removed from the car.
The ones I took off the front my 06 STI were just two pieces of cast sh1te.
That was after about 45K.
04 October 2009, 10:18 AM
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Hi Guys,
I was looking for something that was equal or slightly better than OEM which these are, who makes the OEM parts anyhow? Subaru certainly wont...Maybe Bob will be able to confirm who actually makes these discs? Either way I’m happy with the Disc.
I can however see you point regarding branding as I don't stick cheap **** tyres on the car and nor will I put cheap pads in but the disc, if a cast disc is a cast disc, a lot of the brands such as PF etc use much better grade alloys etc and different casting techniques etc to make help there designs dissipate heat more effectively etc, it is this RandD that your paying for....This was never an issue with the OEM disc for me so in this instance I didn't see the need to go mad and spend £500+ on a set of disc when I wouldn't be using them to their full potential.
Although a progress update if anyone is interested.
The old disc,
Removed. I also spent a while cleaning the back plate and the cailper inside and out and forgot to get a picture of it gleaming.
New Disc on
Wheel back on
Although can't drive it yet...See Here
One final note:
The pads looked in perfect condition, plenty of meat left, even wear and no sign’s of glazing. Also the brake Shim's were in fact in place, however there wasn't any signs of copper grease so I have greased them up to see if that fixes the noise issue. Just need to see if I can return the new Shim's I brought yesterday.
Once the above is fixed and they have bedded in I will report back on what I think of them and if the pad’s are any quieter.
Thanks again for everyone’s input
I was looking for something that was equal or slightly better than OEM which these are, who makes the OEM parts anyhow? Subaru certainly wont...Maybe Bob will be able to confirm who actually makes these discs? Either way I’m happy with the Disc.
I can however see you point regarding branding as I don't stick cheap **** tyres on the car and nor will I put cheap pads in but the disc, if a cast disc is a cast disc, a lot of the brands such as PF etc use much better grade alloys etc and different casting techniques etc to make help there designs dissipate heat more effectively etc, it is this RandD that your paying for....This was never an issue with the OEM disc for me so in this instance I didn't see the need to go mad and spend £500+ on a set of disc when I wouldn't be using them to their full potential.
Although a progress update if anyone is interested.
The old disc,
Removed. I also spent a while cleaning the back plate and the cailper inside and out and forgot to get a picture of it gleaming.
New Disc on
Wheel back on
Although can't drive it yet...See Here
One final note:
The pads looked in perfect condition, plenty of meat left, even wear and no sign’s of glazing. Also the brake Shim's were in fact in place, however there wasn't any signs of copper grease so I have greased them up to see if that fixes the noise issue. Just need to see if I can return the new Shim's I brought yesterday.
Once the above is fixed and they have bedded in I will report back on what I think of them and if the pad’s are any quieter.
Thanks again for everyone’s input
Last edited by Cockney Wideboy; 04 October 2009 at 10:20 AM.
05 October 2009, 04:50 PM
#26
Hi Guys,
I was looking for something that was equal or slightly better than OEM which these are, who makes the OEM parts anyhow? Subaru certainly wont...Maybe Bob will be able to confirm who actually makes these discs? Either way I’m happy with the Disc.
I can however see you point regarding branding as I don't stick cheap **** tyres on the car and nor will I put cheap pads in but the disc, if a cast disc is a cast disc, a lot of the brands such as PF etc use much better grade alloys etc and different casting techniques etc to make help there designs dissipate heat more effectively etc, it is this RandD that your paying for....This was never an issue with the OEM disc for me so in this instance I didn't see the need to go mad and spend £500+ on a set of disc when I wouldn't be using them to their full potential.
Although a progress update if anyone is interested.
The old disc,
Removed. I also spent a while cleaning the back plate and the cailper inside and out and forgot to get a picture of it gleaming.
New Disc on
Wheel back on
Although can't drive it yet...See Here
One final note:
The pads looked in perfect condition, plenty of meat left, even wear and no sign’s of glazing. Also the brake Shim's were in fact in place, however there wasn't any signs of copper grease so I have greased them up to see if that fixes the noise issue. Just need to see if I can return the new Shim's I brought yesterday.
Once the above is fixed and they have bedded in I will report back on what I think of them and if the pad’s are any quieter.
Thanks again for everyone’s input
I was looking for something that was equal or slightly better than OEM which these are, who makes the OEM parts anyhow? Subaru certainly wont...Maybe Bob will be able to confirm who actually makes these discs? Either way I’m happy with the Disc.
I can however see you point regarding branding as I don't stick cheap **** tyres on the car and nor will I put cheap pads in but the disc, if a cast disc is a cast disc, a lot of the brands such as PF etc use much better grade alloys etc and different casting techniques etc to make help there designs dissipate heat more effectively etc, it is this RandD that your paying for....This was never an issue with the OEM disc for me so in this instance I didn't see the need to go mad and spend £500+ on a set of disc when I wouldn't be using them to their full potential.
Although a progress update if anyone is interested.
The old disc,
Removed. I also spent a while cleaning the back plate and the cailper inside and out and forgot to get a picture of it gleaming.
New Disc on
Wheel back on
Although can't drive it yet...See Here
One final note:
The pads looked in perfect condition, plenty of meat left, even wear and no sign’s of glazing. Also the brake Shim's were in fact in place, however there wasn't any signs of copper grease so I have greased them up to see if that fixes the noise issue. Just need to see if I can return the new Shim's I brought yesterday.
Once the above is fixed and they have bedded in I will report back on what I think of them and if the pad’s are any quieter.
Thanks again for everyone’s input
06 October 2009, 05:24 PM
#28
