Rikki 95WRX

I recently had EBC Reds on the Front ,Greens on the back, Dot 5.1 fluid, Goodridge hoses put on with Tar Ox discs.

After taking the car for quite a hard drive today and braking hard a few times - my brakes seemed to lose their bite and the pedal begun to feel spongy. This has upset me a bit because I was hoping that this set up would be fine for track and certainly on the road.

Any ideas what could be wrong and whether this is fade?

Someone else also advised against mixing green and red on the same car but suggested that it is not so bad on a Non-ABS car witha good Brake Balance (ie Impreza).

All comments welcome
Rikki

Muncher

Hi Rikki,

I've got a 95 WRX too and had exactly the same problem. The solution is to upgrade those useless 2pot calipers to either 4 or 6 pot. The 2pot caliper/disc setup just aren't up to the job of repeatedly stopping you from over 80+ mph. There is no way I would go on a track with them. I've also seen people complaining about the standard Subaru 4 pot setup when using them on the track, they are better but still fade pretty quickly IMHO.

This is what I did to solve the problem:

http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...threadid=64693

Hey presto, no fade.

Cheers

Giles

Rikki 95WRX

So it isn't necessarily because I have a problem as such but perhaps because the 2-Pot just can't handle successions of heavy breaking?

Rikki 95WRX

BTW the APs look fabulous, do you have any full pics of the car that you could send me?

Lars

Speaking about fade, you have two types of fading.
One is where your brake pedal feeling is hard, but no stopping power. This is caused by gas leaking from your pad creating a gas film between pad and disc. This is normal for Pads when they are heated beyond their temp. limit. I have never myself seen this on EBC pad's. ( green or red) Not even on trackdays.
Second fading is where your pedal get spongy, this is normally caused by boiling brake fluid.

In both cases fix is more cooling to your brakes.
Regards Lars

Rikki 95WRX

I was under the impression Dot 5.1 wouldn't boil so easily - certainly not under road conditions (even if a little extreme)?

Rikki 95WRX

OK Update time...

Took advantage of an early morning wake and went for a nice drive this morning. (Brake set up is mentioned above)

- Brakes begin with no bite.

- After several stops from high speed (eg 70+), with firm pressure the brakes begin to bite beautifully. I am thinking that this is the Red Stuffs moving in to a more efficient operating temperature for them.

- After continued driving, the same as above, the pedal begins to become spongy. When this happened I gave the brakes even more stick to see what would happen and they became progressively worse and more spongy until they would barely stop the car.

- It also smelled rank.

Any ideas?

- There was also smoke rising out of the engine area on the offside from down low - I think this may be a gasket of some sort but was wondering if it could be anything to do with the brakes or fluid.

- Anyone care to comment on Giles' thoughts that 2 pots (remember set up above!) simply aren't up to the job? (not disbelieving you Giles just be interested to hear what others say).

- According to Lars' definition of fade, this would be my Brake Fluid boiling but I didn't think Dot 5.1 would boil under road conditions?

DaveW

Sounds like in the end you just overheated the pads causing them to smoke, I've done this with std pads on my MY99 (4pots). I'm now running Ferodo 2500 fronts 2000 rears, GpN front disks, braided hoses and AP600 fluid which is very hard to boil but you have to bleed it more frequently. I find this setup is fine for the road, but if I was doing a lot of track work then I'd go the AP/Brembo route.

DaveW

Hoppy

Rikki, it sounds like fluid boiling. The DOT rating is not a heat rating, it's a measure of how much moisture the fluid absorbs. The best stuff is AP Lockheed Ultra 5.1, which APR supply with their brake kits. It has a high boiling point combined with DOT 5.1 qualities for good service life.

Do NOT use AP Racing 600 fluid - it's exclusively for carbon racing brakes - F1 teams use it and have to change it every session. Also, it must NOT be mixed with other fluids.

Confirm that the general view on Scoobynet is that the 2-pot brakes are pathetic, especially under 15in wheels. You're never going to get much braking with small discs. Bigger discs means bigger wheels. So no cheap fixes, I fear.

Best value/cheapest route would be to get some used 16in wheels from someone upgrading to 17/18 then some used 4-pot calipers (see Private section) then a Godspeed disc/bell set up. A few hundred quid, but you'll then have some great stoppers

If you can stretch to 17in wheels, even better. But on a serious note, I would be careful with kit like this on a non-ABS car. They will easily lock the wheels, even from high speed in the dry But when you're used to them, they will transform your driving

Cheers,

Richard.

Rikki 95WRX

It seems that the general consencus is that a small disc/2 Pot set up just isn't up to the job of lots of high speed braking??

So there are different qualities of Dot 5.1 fluid, is this right? I remember seeing the can next to the car after the service and it was a well known brand but I can't remember what now.

Interesting to note that one of you thinks it is the pads (Red Stuff front/Green rear) and one the fluid that is cooking. I wonder which it is

Thanks for the advice. I have still been told by a few differing sources that my setup would do me for track but judging by how it feels under heavy road conditions and what you guys have said - I wouldn't be so sure now.

[Edited by Rikki 95WRX - 3/16/2002 2:22:48 PM]

CHRIS_D

hi rikki
i have the same problems as you, however im on subaru 4 pots.
i have ebc reds, with turbo grooves, braided hoses and dot 5.1.

pads and disks are bedded in now but after hard braking i get loads of brake fade.
i dont want to change the callipers again(was on 2 pots) so does anyone have any solutions???

ive heard scoobysport do a fluid which is dot 4 but has a higher boiling point than dot 5.1, would this make any difference.

also ive seen theres some sort of a reinforcing bracket that fits near the brake solenoid/resevoir thing under the bonnet, which stops this moving under breaking, what is it and where can i get one?

Hoppy

Chris, if your brakes are getting that hot, you need to look at cooling them down rather than using hotter fluid. Get some quality discs and pads under 16in or 17in wheels and you won't have a problem (as per my post above). Good brakes are not cheap.

The thing you're after is a Brake Support Bracket, from the likes of Scoobymania for about £50. I've got one, and can't henestly say that it makes any difference to pedal feel. However, it can't do any harm, either Obviously, it will do nothing for your heat/pads problem.

Cheers,

Richard.

CHRIS_D

hoppy
thanks for the reply
I thought EBC were supposed to be good, thats why i paid the price to have them fitted, if the pads and discs are the problem then i am not best pleased with TN as this was the recommended set up, and i certainly wont be buying EBC again.

BTW Ive got 16's on at the moment with the subaru 4 pots underneath, so do you recommend just changing the discs or/and the pads then?? and if so how much is this likely to put a dent in my wallet?

cheers
chris

Hoppy

Hi Chris. First get some good discs. From what I know and what I've read here, Godspeed discs with separate alloy bells are the best value in serious stoppers. Pagid discs are also said to be very good and good value, and I'm sure the offical Prodrive Alcon 16in disc upgrade is also pukka. There are no doubt others, but they have not had much of an airing on ScoobyNet.

Stick to brake manufacturer's products, rather than badge-engineered kit. And AFAIK, everything except the Godspeeds use an integral iron bell (cheaper) which is a fundamental flaw when things get really hot. And Godspeed prices are very competitive.

Then fit the pads of your choice, according to application.

Alloy calipers are very light, squeeze like a python on steroids, and shed the heat better (so no boiled pedal-to-the-floor fluid). But for fast road use at least, alloy calipers offer least benefit for the most money. Standard Subaru 4-pot calipers are not the problem and if accompanied by other quality components as per above, they will stop you very efficiently.

But if you're into track days, don't mess about. Get the best of the best, and save yourself both grief and money in the long run. The best, BTW, will have AP Racing written on it

Best regards,

Richard.

Rikki 95WRX

Thanks for all the advice.

A question: from what I have read above it appears to be the fluid that is boiling (spongy brake feel). So if I changed this, would things improve or would something else overheat? (Discs? pads?)

I read the leaflet from EBC in TN's waiting room and from all what it said on there I can't believe the pads would give up so easily.

skiddusmarkus

I'm on my 3rd brake setup on my gtir(which has appalling 256mm single piston caliper as standard).First I tried the grooved/drilled with greenstuff pads on the front with braided hose and dot5.1.This only prolonged fade and a trackday convinced me to upgrade.Secondly I tried 285mm grooved discs with 4 pot calipers and redstuff pads on the front-big improvement but in trying to match a P1 with 330mm AP setup on braking I managed to wear out the redstuff pads in 30 mins and the backplate of the pad had 2 perfect holes in it where the pistons went through,cracking the caliper and leaking fluid at 95mph coming into a bend.Lastly I now have 300mm discs with alloy bell and racing 4 pot calipers on the front and am awaiting a 285mm conversion for the rear.I know it's not a subaru but the weight and performance are very similar.The point is that the best way to stop fade is to fit the biggest disc you can which increases the amount of metal available to cool,even if you retain the standard caliper.It's heat that causes fade and the more surface area you have to cool the better.Obviously fitting cooling ducts futher improves things and multipot calipers allow the use of bigger pads which again increase the surface area to cool and have better friction.Basically fit the best kit you can first time round and save yourself money and grief.Brakes(followed by suspension)are the best mods IMO you can do to improve performance on the road and track.

Muncher

Go for the AP-6 pot setup !!

You know you want to

You are looking at about £2500 for the kit though (includes 17" wheels and tyres) and you'll be needing to tell the insurance company about it.