necromax

Ok, Friday night on my way home, I suddenly had no brakes. Pedal travelled almost to the floor! By pumping brakes, managed to get a little pressure back, and slow the car down (had to almost stand on them!). It was almost 1 in the morning, and as I was a few hundred yards from home I got it back safely, and waited till morning to check it out. Checked discs etc, no apparent problem, pressure seemed to be there. Travelled 50 yards around the corner, pedal travelled to the floor again. Got the car back around the block, and found that BOTH front discs were smeared with a black contaminant. My immediate thought was caliper seals, or brake lines. Got it collected, taken to garage, and they inspected it this morning. They currently have no idea what it is, as there is no indication of a leak on the caliper, and they think its simply crap off the road that has built up and smeared around the discs. They have cleaned discs, and are fitting new pads, then will road test. It looks like I'll get a bill for new pads and labour, with no real explanation, has anyone else ever had this happen?

GW2000

I don't believe it...I had a similar issue on Saturday morning. I was driving out of the office car park after leaving it there overnight and applied the brakes, so as to stop for the main road. Discovered to my horror that my stopping distance had doubled, even with my handbreak saving me from hitting the on coming car...no smile for stained trousers. Reversed the car back off the road and checked again (away from road)... still very poor performance.

On visual inspection I had the same black substance on my front discs. It felt like brake dust and water to me.... Managed to cleaned most of it off, but I'm sure I have it on or around the pads.

Off to find a cleaner or a dealer.

Ian MY00

GW2000

Not had a chance to get to my dealer. Anyone got any ideas on how to clean this stuff off and around the pads without damaging them. I have 'Muck-Off' that I use to clean the dirt and muck off my mountain bike, will this do??

necromax

Well, I'm now £215 worse off and VERY unamused. I had to have new pads and the discs had to be cleaned using emery paper. By the time the back brakes were checked too, its 3 hours labour and cost of the pads. And whats to blame? Salt and muck from the roads is to the cause.... they 'think'.
Being somewhat disillusioned at driving what is supposed to be a world class rally car but falling fowl to such a simple fate, I called Subaru, and was told they were sorry to hear I had had a problem. They claim that a number of councils are using an ingredient in their road salt, which when wet and heated produces a slimey substance which will cause loss of braking and weld itself to the discs when the vehicle has stopped and the brakes cool. In 11 years of driving I have never had this happen, or heard of it happening to a regular car, never mind to a car the calibre of the Scoob... perhaps I should swap it for the P.O.S. that the hire car company gave me, at least its brakes appear not to be subjected to a flaw as simple as this one.... I only hope that no one has this happen to them when they are driving at speed... take care peeps, you have been warned!

rr_ww

We got a bulletin on this last year at work. (VW/Audi) It's exactly what you've been told, the latest grit/salt thats being laid has some suspect side-effects!!! Someone needs to bring this to the medias attention and also the manufacturers.

Any takers?

necromax

Well, as I was passing, I thought I'd drop in on the local bobby, and ask him his thoughts, and whether he was aware of any other complaints or there being a problem. He said he had heard nothing, and was not aware of this issue. He also suggested that I contact an independant (like the AA), who might be able to verify the validity of this claim, and do something about it should it be true. Fortunately I did ask for them to return the brake pads, which were hardly worn! This is why I'm so narked at having to pay out for something which was not really needed.

DavidRB

Presumably, high-performance cars are more likely to suffer because their brakes get worked harder and consequently get hotter?

Dyney

Don't know if the councils are using it, but they use some Plastic based thing on the runways and taxiways at airports. Apparently its to keep corrosion down but it costs less too!!!!

Needs further research!!!!

rr_ww

Bizarely I had a Passat at work today (Tues) With this fault, Black discs! Car had braked heavily ABS activated and customer hit a kerb. Then complained that he had no brakes. Checked for leaks, checked reservoir (correct level) Put car on rollers all 4 corners produce in tolerance results. Got the bulletin out. (A4 95-98) Passats and A4s use the same running gear, for those that don't know. Recommends new discs and pads under warranty.

The reason pads as welll is because with brakes we cant be too careful, the pads may be contaiminated as well as the discs, and the consequences of letting a car go back to thge customer with a POSSIBLE fault don't bear thinking about. Don't know where this leaves a Subaru Dealer. But who wants to contact the AA, RAC, ABD etc?

DaveW

It is also affecting Saabs. Brother got new pads under warranty after having a problem of no brakes after the car had sat for a while.

DaveW

banshi

First thanks to STi wanna Subaru for the link

Wife took the car out, reached the bottom of the road and the brake pedal hit the floor. The car ended up on the drive of the house opposite the T junction. She returned with caution and parked on the drive.

I'd felt the brakes were "going off" the previous day so dropped it into the dealers for a check. Assessment was pads 50% worn but no obvious problems. It was dark when I set off so I wouldn't have noticed any black residue and as the dealer is 50 miles away it may have dissapeared en route.

I've now done a further 300 miles and although there has been no problem I still don't feel the brakes are as good as they should be/were. So VAG recommend replacement pads and discs under warranty I wonder what Subaru will say.

BTW Her original description was "there are no brakes on the car". Which I took to mean shot not non-existent, I didn't get the full story until later. But if we accept the road salt explanation why, unless there has been a reaction with the seals, should it affect the hydraulic system?

B

banshi

rr_ww


Even more bizarely, that's one on Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday.

Best thing is that at least there is some sort of explanation 'cos she said "even though I love that car to bits if they don't find out what's wrong it goes" and so we could sleep with a clear concience "including a full written explanation of why it was being sold"

New brakes better than a new car

necromax

I asked the engineer why the pedal was effected, and he said that the braking system would continue to apply pressure until the vehicle stopped, giving the effect of the pedal sinking to the floor. Sounded a bit sketchy to me. I am going to write a letter to Subaru asking for verification of the road salt explanation, then take it to the local council, and the AA, and maybe even send a copy to Watchdog just for good measure.
Incidentally, Subaru warranties, (extended ones at least) do not include pads or discs, hence why I ended up with the £215 bill, and I only had the pads replaced. Niether my pads or discs were hardly worn, the discs cleaned up satisfactorily, but I had the pads replaced anyway (despite being only about 30% worn). I think its BS that they do not include such things under warranty when they are subject to failure, not wear and tear. But we'll see if they will actually put in writing their explanation that fault lies with the local council's rock salt, cause I'm pretty sure the council will not be happy about it. Someone is to blame though, and I agree with your wife, if its a Subaru issue, the car goes...

banshi

Bloody hell! don't start agreeing with Shirley

I would be sceptical about the engineers explanation, surely the pedal, excluding leaks in the system, is responsive to component movement. e.g if you've replaced the pads and pushed the piston back initial travel is governed by moving the piston/pad back to the disk. When contact is made surely anything else is down to wear or air. (or boiled trackday fluid )

But in this case there was no brake effect, the incline of the pavement stopped the car rolling further. AFAIK the pedal hit the foor with no resistance, will check again tonight.

The response from Subaru will be interesting. There are people who have replaced disks/pads under the 3 year warranty and if it's an Approved car surely disks should be covered and pads, depending on mileage from time of sale.

necromax

I would agree with your explanation of why the pedal would hit the floor, and I suspected some kind of seal failure. However, the bods at the garage could find no system fault, simply the contaminant on the disc/pads. They are said they had no idea how it got there. I purchased the car from a Subaru dealership, and it has full Subaru warranty, which I extended to 3 years. At the time the car had only done 23k, and has only done 32k now. It does state that pads and discs are not covered, and I even took the trouble to speak to John Sherwood at Subaru UK, who was in fact who told me it was council rock salt that was responsible. The best he could offer was that he was sorry that I had ended up with a bill! Patronsing or what? I pointed out how disappointed I was, so much so I would be considering the cars future with me very carefully.
I asked for an address to direct my complaint to, to which he replied that he felt he had answered my complaint adequetely. Perhaps not what you'd expect from a 'customer service' manager is it? I have to say I never got shafted like this while driving a Renault, or felt that the vehicle could be unsafe... you'd think I'd asked him to pay for it out of his own pocket the way he was talking!

PS Don't tell Shirley I agreed with her, you'll never hear the end of it

GW2000

Well.... interesting thread. I wonder what my Subaru dealer will say when I go in and show my brakes to him. One question for you, after 20K miles should there be a lip between the outside edge of the disc and the brake surface (polished bit)? I have a lip about 1-2mm and I'm now wondering if my brakes are sticking on (due to this salt) once they are warm.

One other thing on the brake failure I don't recall the pedal 'dropping to the floor', it was more of brakes full on as normal with nothing happening. Only my handbrake saved the front end of the car

I'll let you know what happens at the dealer.

Plantie

Sounds like I have it as well

GW2000 let me know how you get on and who you go and see as I will follow you in... May be give us a better chance of a good outcome. Cheers

ScoobyJawa

Ian - the lip on the disc is normal - just a part where the pad doesn't have much contact........ Although the bigger it gets the nearer you are to replacing the discs

Postman Pat

Hi Lads.
One question pops into my mind. What was the overnight temperature ? i.e. could it have been cold enough to allow the seals to leak and then on warming up again reseal ?
Scares the absolute **** out of me!
By the way I think they use urea at airports.
Pat

necromax

You might want to voice your opinions/concerns, and highlight the fact that Audi/VW are covering this under warranty to John Sherwood at Subaru UK on 0121 522 2000. If enough people get onto him about this, they can either extend the warranty to cover it, or at least push the councils.... someone has to be responsible, if only from the safety point of view. Of course, the cost being covered would be nice.

banshi

Nice try Pat, and a better rationale the dealers "she must have pressed the clutch by mistake", but is doesn't apply in my example. Though I'd even considered the possibility of condensation icing on the disks and temporarily displacing a seal.

Last weekend was fairly mild, whereas on the previous one temp dropped to -6, without any detrimental effect.

Theoretically there is no way this could happen beyond the master cylinder as a dual system would provide brakes at front or rear if a pipe or seal failed. As a precaution my dealers have requested authorisation to fit a replacement under warranty.

Any guesses as to the probability of a discussion with Mr Sherwood?

pwebb

had some similar probs myself last week - compounded when I managed to find an open jetwash (all others frozen up) and washed the black goo out from the wheels/calipers - some of it must have mixed with the water from the wash and left the discs very slimy - not good - had to stop and clean the discs again.

start rant

After a week of unbelieveable amounts of salt on the road I now have rusty wheelnuts and hubs so was thinking of dropping a note to the council anyway to seek recompense - I wish they would just use plain grit (or nothing at all + tell people not to try driving on it)as in europe + invest in some proper snow clearing equipment - I also found out for the first time that gritter drivers are volunteers !!! - what a country.

as an aside - have you noticed how many courtesy cars and accident damaged cars are on the road at the moment - seems like a quarter of cheshire had some form of accident - I can't believe that all those people were on 'essential journeys' when they fell foul of the icy conditions ;-)

On the few journeys I did make down untreated roads I was amazed at the clueless drivers I came accross who were oblivious to the lack of grip etc.

end rant :-)

Paul W

Jonathan Witts

Hi Guys

Just caught up with my reading so sorry for the delay. I had a trip down the up the A3 when we had the cold snap. Gritters had been out. When I came off the clipway I nearly over shot as my brake were not there. It was as if I had server brake fade, although this was not the case as I had been crusing and not used them for 20 mins.

When I looked at the disks they was black stuff on them. Did not have any time to go to the garage, and they have quite quickly return to normality.

Sounds like there is somthing different going on this winter - Any ideas.

Not that its that relevant, but I drive a B4 RSK, same brakes as a Scooby.

See ya

Jon

GavM

I have had the same problem for the last few days in the P1. Feels like a servo problem-ie brake pedal is rock hard and does not move much (not to the floor). Have to jump on it to get car to slowly stop. Not much fun -is at its worst first thing in the morning.
Did drive a few thousand miles in the last few weeks in Ireland and Scotland on heavily salted roads so may well be the cause.
Booked in for a service on Friday but it is now so bad i may have to take it in early-will be interesting to see their comments.

Gav

BruceR

I spent the last month trying to work out what was causing the severe brake fade I have been experiencing after jet washing my car. I had narrowed it down to occurring the first time I applied the brakes after the wash, but couldn’t understand why the problem didn’t occur before last December. I guess as my journey to work goes over a 1400 foot heavily gritted road, I’m just redistributing some kind of lubricant over my discs every time I wash the car. After a very hard foot on the brakes to no effect this AM, I was going to put it into the garage for them to sort out, but came across this thread. Will be interesting to see how many others have had similar experiences.

Bruce

GW2000

Finally got mine in the garage on Friday and asked them to check out the brakes due to the problems on Saturday. It turned out the disc and pads were 'glazed' and cost me ~£60 to get it sorted. Now after a couple of days of gently braking, they are still OK.

Best to get it sorted out rather than ploughing in the back or side of something, like I nearly did....won't like doing this every winter though

banshi

Well having geared up for a row with IM. I collected the car today.

Brake Master Cylinder replaced, even though no obvious fault was identofied, and fluid upgraded under warranty.
Don't know wheather to commend the dealer (Robinsons) or IM.

Now I just have to continue worrying about this black gunge!

AJbaseBloke

Sorry to take a possibly unpopular tack on this, but what about talking to your councils or whoever is responsible for using the stuff? Surely they bear the fault? And as it is causing accidents, or the potential for them, then someone should be getting a swift kick or 3.

Mentioning it to the RAC, AA and or some magazines should be another tack being taken - sounds like a major stink needs to be raised, hopefully before someone gets killed or maimed.

I seem to remember this, or something like it happening in the US some time ago - an anti-freezing compound causing havoc when improperly used.

Drive safely.