James_Harvey

Brembo... AP... Willwood... Tarox...
The list goes on.
Im looking for a big brake upgrade that will fit under 16's. I was getting set for either AP or Brembo when someone mentioned Willwoods (a shade short of a grand fitted).

Can someone please enlighten me as to what the extra £500 for Brembos or APs gets you?
Are Willwoods a wise choice?

The car is used for three or four trackdays a year (possibly more next year )

Comments please.

James.

AlexM

James,

I recently fitted 4-pot APs with standard ZX pads and drilled disks to my MY98 with 16" wheels, and I can safely say that the difference is incredible.

The improvement is not just apparent in all-out braking (which is MILES better), but also in much greater precision and bite with gentle application. The ZX pads can squeak slightly on occasions when parking, but don't grind, squeal or vibrate while on the move.

I've always thought that brake upgrades are probably the most consistantly satisfying aftermarket upgrade you can do on any car. I didn't think that my Subaru 4-pots were too bad, but these are really in a different league altogether, and simply transform the feel of the car.

I'm quite pleased with them, as you can probably tell . IMHO they are not cheap, but are worth it for the quality of the disks and calipers. I don't know about how they would compare with Willwood or Brembo set-ups.

Cheers,

Alex

Stef

James.
I may be slightly biased but AP's seem the only way to go. The Scoobymania/AP kit is one of the only upgrades that I have heard no bad reports on, and mine are still performing faultlessly after 30,000 miles and eight track days, although I have obviously fitted new pads and recently new discs.
If you want any more convincing, have a look at

quattro

Just to clarify once and for all: what Stef calls Scoobymania/AP "product" is a perfectly standard AP package which can be acquired in either 16 or 17 inch size with 4-pot calipers in both sizes and 6-pot calipers for the 17-inch option. Discs have the official G8 denomination in contrast with drilled discs which have the suffix RD.

So, anyone who supplies AP is in a position to supply every single permutation of the package.

q.

JON HUGHES

Had the new wilwood billet six pots fitted about a month ago now,after the intial bedding in(which seemed to take for ever)and the fitment of a brake support bracket the performance is damn good!!!

First track day will be Goodwood on the 29th so hopefully I will still feel the same on the 30th.....

The kit is a very tight fit in 16inch wheels 325mm/30mm....how they will compare to AP/Brembo who knows??

Jon

James_Harvey

I only use 16's on Trackdays. My normal wheels are 17" Mims (Scoobysport).

Im leaning towards Willwood on a cost basis... unless anyone can persuade me the extra £500 is money well spent

I take it they all come with braided lines and decent fluid?

James.

Stef

Q.
As I aquired my kit from Scoobymania, I am perfectly entitled to call it the 'Scoobymania/AP' kit, especially as they were the ones that put the various 'standard' components together after various meetings with AP.
I am sure other vendors of AP products (ie, yourself) are able to supply exactly the same kit. Whether you would have done if the Scoobymania kit hadn't been put together in the first place is another matter.

Jon.
You have six-pot 325mm discs under 16" wheels? I take it the calipers are quite slim then?

As I have said, I am only offering my knowledge on the AP kit that I have. I have no experience of Wilwood, so can't comment.
I do not work for Scoobymania, nor get anything from them. If I buy a product and I like it, I will forever sing it's praises if given the opportunity to do so. It's called being a happy customer.

Stef.

quattro

Stef,

You are entitled to anything you want to be and call things any way you want.Facts remain as they are and that is all that matters.

I am not a 'vendor' of any kind (they usually sell ice cream), thank you very much.

Of course, everyone would be able to buy anything that AP have in their production. All that would be necessary would be to take a look and choose individual components already available as regular AP items and put them together into a package. It just requires a bit of insight and effort. Which is what Mike T did. No more and no less.


q.

PS. You are right, I would have never chosen the G8 discs as my primary option. For all those who do not live on a track they are of no advantage anyway. Apart, of course, from academic and theoretical deficiencies of drilled discs which some like to discuss at length.

[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 25 August 2000).]

[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 26 August 2000).]

JON HUGHES

Steff
I know you said it couldn't be done but it has

The calipers are bigger than your AP ones I think,but my wheels are not std 16inch so might have more room inside??

Jon

Stef

Q.
Thank you. So seeing as the Scoobymania kit was developed primarily for people who take their car on track (not necessarily live on it! ) the G8 discs were a good choice then?
And isn't a vendor someone that sells something? I was under the impression you also sold AP products?

Jon.
I don't recall saying it could never be done? I've just never seen any six-pot caliper with 325mm discs under 16" wheels. I thought mine was a tight squeeze! What wheels do you have then? I'd like to see them when we meet up again.

Stef.

quattro

Stef,

most interesting dialogue indeed. The term "develop" has a certain weight for those who take it seriously and, personally (not expecting you to agree) what you mentioned I do not consider to be a development of any kind, just choice different from another one available. I cannot help if you cannot make a distinction between the two.

There was never a question whether the choice of G8 discs was good or bad. I never said it was bad. Consequently, I fail to understand (limited IQ,cannot help it)what was your point there.

You see, for me, the term "vendor" degrades and demotes those who do anything seriously and with some evident knowledge and competence. Any professional, business or commercial activity I may be a part of, will always operate and do it's best as per those policies and principles. Not that there are many like that to talk about, but that is really not something I am concerned about.

As I have stated many times, unlike most others (and I am sure you know them almost as well as you know yourself) as a member of this and "the other" bbs I am an individual who never ever allows himself to associate his eventual professional, commercial or business activities with exchange of thoughts on a bulletin board. Therefore, no, I am NOT selling AP. If I wrote my thoughts as a supplier,I can assure you I would not have discussed AP products the way I did. Instead, I would have praised to outer space and back everything and anything I could possible make some money out of. Again, I leave that to others who have no problems doing that regularly.

As a person who could almost be called an AP development and test driver/engineer, I am confident that no one knows more about track (circuit) application of their products and associated brake pads than yourself. Unfortunately, very few people know and understand how little bearing and relevance that has in somewhat more boring and ordinary use of those same brakes in frequent road use (even fast).

Perhaps James Harvey as a member who started this thread asking for useful, practical and serious advice should be aware of.

My sincere apologies if my thoughts yet again managed to make you feel as if they were directed to yourself in any negative sense. You are still MUCH faster than I will ever be at Donnington.

regards
q.

Mike Tuckwood

Sheesh! You take a week off and look what happens.

To clarify
==========

The '<B>Scooby Mania</B>' AP Racing kit did not exist as a kit until we (Scooby Mania) and AP Racing <B>Developed</B> it.

This 'Development process' commenced about a year ago and is ongoing.

Stef is a (relatively) normal paying customer and willingly assists ourselves and AP Racing by constant monitoring/measurement of performance, wear rates Etc. in conjunction with ourselves and AP Racing tecnnical department. <I>We are greatful for Stefs involvement and input in this process.</I>

<B>Scooby Mania</B> also solely led to the development of a completely new caliper (Slimline 6 Pot) for use on the Impreza.

We will continue to progress this procedure in this area to the benefit and advantage of all of our customers, as we will in all other areas that we are involved.


Mike.

[This message has been edited by Mike Tuckwood (edited 29 August 2000).]

quattro

Scooby Mania (or perhaps Mike?)

Why all the explaining? Who wanted to know which of your customers pay one or the other price? All this sounds as if someone was suspecting something and I cannot see any of that happening anywhere.

I read your bold words about Scooby Mania and development. Not that I am too interested and bothered. As usual, your posts are predominantly well composed pieces of self-promotion and marketing, but I presume everyone got used to it or no one really cares.

This, of course, does not mean in any way whatsoever that the level of care and assistance you provide to your customers is anything but very good. I can even vouch for that from personal experience.

Do not leave us for another week, please. You see what we are capable of doing!

q.

Mike Tuckwood

Branko.

You implied that the kits we sell had been nothing more than thrown together with no planing or development thereafter, I merely clarified that was not the case.

Does anyone care?

I will endeavour to resist providing any more clarification on this matter.

Mike. (Scooby Mania)

quattro

Mike,

As you well know, I do not imply, I deal with facts, and the fact is that all parts of "your package" (which I am more than happy to accept as an interesting proposition for track users or any other excuse required) have existed with the manufacturer in the same form and shape as they are now well before your business put them together into a package it is now. Those facts are not my fabrication, but public knowledge anyone can have access to if the respectable manufacturer in question is asked.

As I have already explained, terms like "development" and "proprietary product" bear quite a lot of weight in my dictionary and/or vocabulary. If, in your opinion implementing a disc with 8 grooves instead of a radial drilled one is development, fine - so be it. For me, it is not. Choosing brake pads is something I would not even address as it is a perfectly standard and known practice in circuit as well as enthusiastic fast road applications (pad wear under stress, thermal behaviour, etc.)

Planning and development? Here we go again. I am not against you or your firm's selection of products. AP products are first class, no matter which discs or pads are used. Your efforts in offering them in a concentrated effort is also commendable. But, that does not mean that people should be led to believe into things that would make them think better or worse of any product because of such ingredients.

Hat off for registering yourself as an individual member. It is genuinely appreciated and you know why. All you now need to do is try not to confuse yourself with your business when you post. I am sure with a bit of practice it will be fine.

Agree with you we should endeavour to resist further clarification. If all this has not been 'nuff said, nothing will.

all the best
q.

Mike Tuckwood

Branko.

My standpoint is clear and known to all, my profile clearly shows my commercial interest as do my posts.

Why does your profile not show your commercial interest????


You seem to be hung up for some reason on the word developed. The parts you mention did exist as you say, we did not just pick them and crack on, there was (and still is) development work going on in conjunction with AP Racing and ourselves.

Simple fact really and hopefully the conclusion of your well voiced doubts.

Regards


Mike.

quattro

Mike,

The very fact that you asked the question about me not showing my commercial interests on either of the bulletin boards is the best answer there is. However, since you would like me to think you do not have the answer, here it is: as a member of either this or the other bbs, I find it totally out of order and out of line to even contemplate promoting, marketing or selling any goods I may be offering to the public in my professional or business life. From what I was led to believe, it would in a number of contraventions with the purpose and intent of these "objective and informative platforms". In plain English it is called wrong and unethical. That, of course, as practice is demonstrating, does not mean to say everyone has to have that same view.

Rest assured that I am fully up to date with all the "development" (your preferred word) your business is conducting with AP and if you insist on liking to call it that way, so be it. For as long as there is enough people out there who have chosen to believe into this, good for you.

Hopefully, this could be the conclusion of my voiced opinions (not doubts).

regards
q.

I have no problems with any terms you use for as long as they reflect some kind of reality. Also, I voice my opinions (not doubts as you said)

KF

I would just like to suggest that no one uses any more words of French etymology on this thread, as they appear to be causing confusion.
KF.

Saj

I think James was looking for some comments on the various braking systems on the market boys.

Saj

JON HUGHES

Good point Saj!

James..
Just to let you know the new wilwoods performed without fault on sunday.

85 track miles,1min36sec average lap time,140+ up the back straight!!2/3 of the pads remaning...tyres shreaded!!!

Steff
The wheels are BBS the same style as the 22B but 16inch.

Jon

pat

James,

getting back to the question at hand... :-)

But seriously, you need to decide what is most appropriate to *YOUR* needs, both in terms of application and financial outlay. There is, for example, no point in installing racing pads if 99.8% of the time you're on the road (you'll need to left foot brake to warm them up every time you want to use them!). All depends on what you plan to do....

The price differences are due to the different build qualities. A simple passing glance at a Brembo caliper will reveal that they are VERY solid. The AP caliper is a different design, derived from racing calipers, and again incredibly strong. Both represent pretty much the best calipers sensible money can buy for a road car.

Some of the less expensive calipers have been known to splay, under very heavy use; not a problem if you never go on a track, but something worth bearing in mind if you wanna do lots of trackdays!

With reagard to Willwood calipers, they are a fairly light design, great for keeping unsprung mass down, but they do not posess the mechanical strength of the AP or Brembo units. Again, probably fine for enthusuastic driving and occasional track use :-)

Personally, I have a "weird" compromise... I'm using Brembo calipers which have been adapted to clear my brake discs; these are 335x32 discs and (apart from increasing unsprung mass compared to 305x28) never seem to get too hot... when I go out on track I generally stay there until a passenger needs a pee or I run out of fuel :-) Brakes simply aren't an issue.... tyres can get a bit hot though :-) I run Pagid Blue pads; they are quite aggressive on the discs, but the cold bite is very good, and they just bite harder as they get hotter. I have never managed to get brake fade on these!

Of course my setup won't fit under your wheels (they have a hard time under 17s never mind 16s!) but it's a fairly practical setup; it works well on the road, and it works well on the track... best of both worlds? Nope, I'm sure that I could optimise the setup for road use or track use by changing the pads, disc type, disc material etc, but I kinda like the fact I can burn a whole tank of petrol in one go on the track, fill up the car and drive home with minimal fuss (tyre pressure, damper rate need adjusting).

Hope this helps,

Pat.

Saj

James

I am using a Brembo set up on my Scoob, the floating design when I went to the floating setup over the standard the only difference I know of is that now my pads dont glaze anymore,probably because they are now grooved.
When I bought my car the Brembo setup was already fitted but the car would not stop ( Glazed Pads) hence why I changed the discs.

Since then various people have said the Brembos are **** they stop, work well so to my mind are good.

On my other car Audio Quattro Turbo UR I use 365mm x 35 yep they are big and Wilwood super light callipers the car stops like no other but that is probably due to bigger discs. I have had no problems with either setup.

Wilwoods are not well known in the UK in comparison to AP/ Brembo but in the States they are.

My advice try some cars with various set ups before you make up your mind.

Friend of mine is having a AP set up fitted next week, will give it a go and let you know.

I know nothing of the Tarox set up.

Cheers

Saj
STI V

[This message has been edited by Saj (edited 30 August 2000).]

James_Harvey

Thanks guys.... some decent advice at last...

Stef

This is pathetic.
Branco, I see your postings as nothing other than you trying to undermine the coments Scoobymania make about the AP kit they have put together/developed, whatever.
You are involved in a company that also sells AP brake kits, although for whatever reason you haven't mentioned this.
Your comments here are of a similar vein to the ones you have made to potetial customers that have spoken to you regarding AP brakes, where you have told people that 'Stef has not been testing anything for AP' and 'Scoobymania didn't develop the kit'.
I have no commercial interest in Scoobymania, but lots of gratititude.
Any company that has supplied me with a mod that I like, I will praise. This is my right.
The kit THEY supplied me with is superb, and I can't praise it enough.
I will continue to praise it as long as people keep asking for my opinion, unless it goes wrong!
Kindly keep me out of your politics in future.

Stef.

Stef

Oh, and James.....buy whatever brakes you realy want.

Stef.

johnfelstead

cor blimey, i have been missing some politics.

Lets get to brake system facts.

The wilwood calipers are designed and manufactured in the USA and service the thriving NASCAR series amongst others.

A very important fact about these calipers is that they do NOT have any dust seals on the pistons, they are race callipers and not road calipers. They require more maintanenece than a caliper with dust seals and even come from the factory with stickers attached saying they are not for road use. This is to meet USA legal requirements, not UK requirements.

I use wilwoods on my westfield as it is used mainly on track and the calipers offer superb value for money, having stainless steel pistons and very light weight.

Now then lets look at AP racing calipers.
AP racing make 2 main classes of caliper, race calipers that have no dust seals, these we use on our groupA rally car and esprit race car with great success.

They also do a range of calipers designed for road use that do have dust seals on the pistons, they look identical to the layman to the race calipers but they are diferent, usually coming with alloy rather than stainless steel pistons.

These are the ones you should go for from the AP range of calipers as they dont need the maintanence required that a race caliper requires.

As to the other makes, i cannot comment as i have no personal experience.

As to disks to use, drilled are fine on the road unless you drive the car very, very hard.

Drilled disks are NOT ok for track use, they do split from the drillings, end of discusion.

quattro

Stef,

Your are overestimating your importance and role in my humble life. I do not discuss you with anyone and I will never do so.

Politics? That is a valuable and serious term that nothing around cars we discuss deserves. So, there is nothing to keep you in or out of.

If you still do not understand my policies regarding businesses I am involved in, kindly read my post and reply to Mike T in that respect.

You keep repeating youself about who you have right to praise, what you buy and what you get, etc.Leaving aside that no one else apart fro yourself and another person are interested in that, I thought we have dealt with that before. Again, I never ever implied or said you could not praise who and what you thought you should.

I like your sudden visit to the "gossip and hearsay" department quoting what I "say" to my potential clients. This is not even resembling a bad joke any more. Good to know how low things can get in desperate attempts to "prove" something?

Apologies, Stef, but I am unable to adjust to your mode of discussion. Therefore, I have nothing else to say as I failed to understand (once again that is) most of what you said. You bear no importance or relevance in my personal or professional life and I would like to hope you can reciprocate in the same way. We do not even know each other and that is also fine by me.

So,although there is nothing for me to keep you out of as you kindly asked, may I request the same from you and life will be as wonderful as ever.

regards
q.

PS. Perhaps Saj & Co. are right. James Harvey still did not get enough advice and answers to his question. Hopefully, poor guy isn't too optimistic in that request anyway.

PS2. I promise I will no longer extend this thread with my contributions no matter what the "good guys" have to say. Amen.

[This message has been edited by quattro (edited 31 August 2000).]

GavinP

James,

I would suggest having a chat with Jeff at Hi Spec on 01322-286850.

They sell larger disks for standard calipers along with Wilwood and AP kit.

As he sells the three options, he may be able to give a different insight into the pros and cons of the various kit.

Who you choose to buy the brakes from at the end of the day is down to personal preference.

Thanks

Gavin