Scoobybits

need to order some discs and pads for impending upgrade to later type scooby 4 pots(classic) not sure which discs and pads to go for..mainly road/fast road use..are black diamond any good??
advice appreciated have posted in tech but little feedback..anybody recommend best buy/ and a supplier that i can trust please...ta....

Fatman

I'm using Pagid 8-groove discs (as seen here). They work well with Pagid pads (here), but I'm now using new-compound EBC 'Redstuff' pads.

Krade

I'm using Tarox disc's and EBC pads. Good postitive feel to braking after the conversion from two pots

mista weava

pagid grp n+ setup with braided hosing - very good.

Weava

greasemonkey

Jase, you'll get wildly differing opinions of this, and while mine may be unfashionable, it works for me... I've gone through most of the common "performance" discs over the past couple of years, and IMO none of them are worth the money, with the possible exeption of the separate disc/bell systems. None of them perform that much better than the OE parts, all are prone to warpage under heavy use, and the grooved/drilled/dimpled ones will also wear your pads quicker.

SAP Motor Parts sell Quinton Hazell discs for £35 each; for the money you can't go wrong. I've had a set on for about 6,000 miles now and they work fine. Sure, they're not as good as a big brake kit for repeated heavy braking, but they're more than up to "fast road" type driving. There's no warpage yet, despite being got (literally) red hot on a number of occasions.

Get a set of those and put the money you save towards a set of Pagid RS4-2.1, braided hoses and racing brake fluid. Much better way of spending the cash IMO.

[Edited by greasemonkey - 10/13/2003 3:45:33 PM]

mista weava

the pads Grease monkey mentions are the Don for the classic Jase.

i have had the 8 groove disc also, i am sure that the discs GM mentions are well up to scratch, as it is the quality of the metal and its ability to cope with heat that cause warping or not.

the standard items as i am sure you are aware are very prone to this!

use of the uprated fluid is wise also. i use silcolene.

i don't know what GM's thoughts on the theory of grooves helping to expell dust and also to prevent glazing are?

i have always understood that this is the case.

also, the pagid discs have never warped on me - they have been nothing short of superb, no matter how much beasting they get.

hope sunny Rotheram is treating you well - got any interiors for a wahon at the mo??

Weava

Scoobybits

i was wondering how much better "performance" discs would be to be fair!! thanks ...still not sure which way top go though!!

Scoobybits

cheers weava..thought you had sorted a interior????!!
just had to buy a full car to get trim for my mate and these brakes!! see post in for sale..everything else for sale!the only other wagon trim is an early(non bucket) type front seats......
back to brakes cheers for comment mate..still unsure either way!!?

peccy

jasemac,

standard my00 (297mm) disc are pretty ok, i only got them to fade slightly 2 or 3 times on my my00, so with your drivin you should be fine .

when they wore out i went for the TSL Brembo Group N disc and DS2500 pad combo, didnt stop me any better but never had brake fade at all.

greasemonkey

There's a certain amount of meat to that theory, although my experience lately suggests that it makes a negligible difference if you're running good pads.

The big problem with grooving/dimpling/whathaveyou is that the metal removal sets up stress concentrations in the discs, which, at only 24mm wide when new, are thinner than ideal to start with.

When you also consider that the OE and "Group N+" shape discs all use a compromised design (the square shoulder between the disc and "bell" section is awful), there's more potential for distortion with a grooved disc than there is with a flat one of otherwise identical design and metallurgical properties.

I've had two sets of these. The first ones were warped to buggery after less than two months on the car. I was given another set gratis on the basis that the first must have been from a bad batch, only for them to do exactly the same thing.

It was after this that I tried the cheap ones from SAP on the basis that they couldn't be any worse, and at least it wouldn't cost much to find out. Haven't looked back. I'd change the calipers if I could, but seeing as I'm stuck with them, this is a good compromise.

I haven't tried them (yet, fancy sending me a set to try Jamie? ), but the DBA discs look like the best one-piece parts I've seen. The design is much better than the OE/"Group N+" versions, especially the junction between the "disc" and "bell" sections.

salsa-king

I've had EBC groove and dot FRONT and REARs on for the last 18months
with
RED STUFF on front
GREEN STUFF on the rear.

been very good. Need warming up with the Red Stuff on the front... but that takes seconds!

Look awesome too.

rears


fronts


Phil

*Sonic*

I have DBA Gold Long Life on mine at the front, much better than the OE ones I had on

I stuck my OE discs back on for Silverstone (as the DBA's say NOT for track use, as they do specific Track Discs) and I had basically no brakes for 5 laps of Silverstone on the OE ones

Steve

Scoobybits

thanks people..lots of differing views???..

Leslie

I always thought that the grooves and holes were there to dissipate the gases released from the pads under high temperatures which otherwise would push the pads away from the disks. Obviously this would be under extreme conditions such as on a track etc.

I would have thought that GM has given you good advice based on experience. When my disks wear out I will do the same as he did.

Les

Graz

Just as a slight aside how does a Pagid GrpN setup (disc, pads, hoses & fluid) compare cost wise with the original Subaru setup?

My front discs and pads are nearing the end of their life so I was thinking off upgrading on the basis that the Pagid gear would cost about the same, perhaps less, than OEM bits?

I might be missing the point here but did someone mention that the Padgid discs are thinner than OEM? If so will they wear out quicker or can you expect about the same longevity from an OEM setup (about 40k on mine)?

Cheers,

Graz

greasemonkey

Careful here. The grooved Pagid discs are known as "Group N+", not Group N. Subtle, but important difference!

That's a bit of a piece of string question. If you were looking at Subaru main dealer prices for OE discs/pads you'd end up paying considerably more than if you got OE spec discs and pads from a third party. Even assuming the OE parts were on the expensive side though, the Pagids would still cost a fair bit more, especially if you went for one of the RS pads and a high temperature brake fluid.

Erm, no. For starters this isn't the right way to be thinking about it. Thinking about your brakes from the primary issue of cost is not the way. The first priority is to get the best you can, as skimping in this area is likely to get you in the sh*t sooner or later. That doesn't necessarily mean that more expensive is always better though - there are cases where this does apply, and equally cases (especially the discs) where it doesn't.

All that said, there's no way a complete Pagid setup would cost less than OE, even from a main dealer. For starters you'll find discs costing around £140 a pair at a dealer, or as stated above you can find excellent OE discs for around £70 a pair from a third party factor.

A set of Pagid grooved discs plus RS pads would set you back over £300. A pair of the QH discs plus some "OE spec" pads would be less than £100, although not in a million years would I suggest you use pads this cheap; it's worth spending good money on pads.

No, that's not what I said. The castings are exactly the same shape and basic dimensions as the OE parts. The trouble is that the OE discs are thinner than ideal to start with, and thus any disc designed to fit the same calipers has to share a similarly compromised design, unless a spacer is inserted in the caliper to widen it. This is not practical within the realms of a standard replacement disc setup as it would require wheels with greater spoke clearance than the standard ones - if you need to change your wheels to make the brakes fit, you may as well go the whole hog and get a big brake kit...

Any disc with grooves or holes cut in it will likely wear fractionally quicker due to the fact that there is simply less metal in contact with the pad. Plus, if the grooves do the job that is claimed for them, there will be better contact between pad and disc thus greater wear.

The problem I had with the Pagids wasn't that they wore quickly, I didn't have them on the car long enough to find out. It was simply that after only a few thousand miles they were warped to the point of unusability.

[Edited by greasemonkey - 10/14/2003 3:07:01 PM]

cosmicchris00

Black Diamond are good disks and are available at reasonable prices thro mail order. Use the Mintex std. pads and save a packet. They give a reasonable amount of dust but so what, they work well and they're cheap.
Brake disc warping is rarely actually warping. Its more likely deposition of the pad material and other "stuff". Basically keep your discs clean. If you ever get brake fluid on them make sure you wash them with a good brake cleaning fluid. Alternatively use this address and read the article

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped_rotors_myth.htm

Happy braking

Graz

Thanks Greasemonkey for the extensive reply!

Yeah okay, I meant N+

I think my logic was slightly misconstrued, brakes, tyres, suspension etc., i.e. all the bits that keep you on the road/track and not in a ditch somewhere, is something that I will not skimp on. My thinking was that if the cost difference between N+ and OEM was small then fitting N+ would be an obvious move due to the increase in braking performance it may give. I thought the Pagid gear and OEM (dealer) prices would be comparable due to the huge mark ups on the parts and labour prices charged by dealers.

Unfortunatly I'm not mechanically competent enough, nor have the facilites to fit my own discs and pads.

So in answer to my question the OEM bits even when fitted by an official dealer would be cheaper than Pagid fitted by an independent outfit.

That's not to say I still won't go for uprated discs and pads

Dense question about the thickness of the discs, of course they would have to be the same size to fit the calipers.

Cheers,

Graz