Stuart Knight

iTrader: (2)

MRT recommended the following, I'm not sure whether they have have ever been set right on my car though, so can't really comment.

Front camber .75 degreees neg
Front toe 0

Rear camber Even
Rear toe 1.5mm OUT

Personally I think the rear toe out would make the car a bit unsettled at the back, promoting oversteer, but I've been known to be wrong

Bajie

I have the ALK on a MY98 supplied and fitted by Scoobymania as recommended by MRT.
Suspension as per Prodrive tweakery.
I changed the front tyres the same day to Michelin Pilot 215/40s.
Rears tyres are Yokohama.
If I brake hard into a bend and turn in the back of the car can swing out. Easily corrected by me which means a good driver probably wouldn't make this happen.
As I only drive the car 4 days a month I have not really experimented as much as I can. I know I like the turn in now more than I did before.

TimK

Andy,
I have the ALK fitted to my STi5.
I have found that the best settings for UK type roads & weather to be the following :-

Front : 0.75 degree negative camber & 1mm (10 seconds) of toe in.

Rear : 1.0 degree negative camber & 3mm (30 seconds) of toe in.

I found that you really do need this much toe in at the rear, so as to avoid too much lift off / power oversteer (especially in the wet).
Also I run less negative camber at the front because the ALK creates much more of this when you turn in anyway.

I know these aren't the recommended settings from Whiteline and MRT - but I have found them to be best.
Try them out and let us all know what you think.

AndyMc

Hi all

I have recently fitted an Anti lift kit from ScoobyMania to my otherwise standard uk 98my.I know its down to personal choice but I would like to ask those with the ALK what geometry settings they are using.

The car was set to the Prodrive geometry a while back and this made a big difference.There was less mid bend/power understeer and a bit more lift off/power oversteer all of which made the car more neutral/adjustable and much more fun to drive.
What it didn't do was improve the turn in understeer which has always been excessive compared to my other cars.
This is why I went for the ALK which is supposed to help in this area.

Now the ALK is fitted and still has the Prodrive geometry the handling has changed completely. In the wet it has lost the adjustability it had before and now just understeers at the limit.In the dry there is a lot more front end grip but the car is not predictable and its easy to loose the back end.Turn in has improved though.

Ben at ScoobyMania has given me some advice
but some more would be appreciated.

I personally think less negative camber at the front is the way to go,but Whiteline who make the ALK recommend a higher setting than I have at present.

My current setting are

Front/rear camber 1 degree neg
Front toe 10 mins total in
Rear toe 5 mins total in

Help

Cheers Andy

GavinP

Andy,

I would suggest fitting the steel rear sway bar links - they are fairly inexpensive.

Apparently, increasing the rear roll stiffness is the way of reducing understeer (in "Training WRX"). These links increase the efficiency of the anti-roll bar by 50% (according to MRT).

Alternatively, if you have a bit more money to spend, fitting an adjustable rear anti-roll bar will allow you to tune the handling characteristics to suit. Additionally, fitting solid front links will improve turn-in.

I had the ALK and rear links fitted to my 94 car as it thought the handling was very poor. This has transformed the car and is now much more enjoyable to drive.

IHTH

Thanks

Gavin

Danny Fisher

I've got both the front and back sway bar links on order and the ALK, due in at the end of the week. Need to fit them before next Saturday (5th), as having the geometry setup by dealer.

Let you know the outcome then.

Dan

Pete Croney

A word of caution about fitting thicker anti roll bars.

When a car fitted with these does "let go", thinks happen very, very quickly!!

Interesting comments about the ALK's. I've got a set to try out, but haven't fitted them yet.

Nico van Steen

At this moment I am on - 1.2 degrees rear camber and - 0.4 front camber, zero toe all round.

Car is a MY99 fitted with ALK, Sways (F 22mm, rear 18-22 mm, set to 22mm), steel end links and camber pins for rear camber adjustment.

Car feels good, though I'd like to try out more front camber (up to -1 degrees) when spring arrives.

Pete might be right about snap oversteer. Car feels very firm leaving the roudabout, don't know what happens when I overdo this.

Regards,

Nico van Steen
Netherlands

Area 52 Autosport

Anything you do to a car's suspension will change the way it drives.

Fitting a thicker rear anti-roll bar will drastically reduce understeer and improve grip. Then fitting a thicker front bar will bring back a little of the understeer but offer tremendous grip.

Anyone lost a std car on the road? Pretty drastic moment when it does happen! Fortunately your grip is higher and so the moment may never have happened!!

So, there are many many benefits of stiffer anti-roll bars and on the track where the surfaces are smooth, the corners are open and lots of run-offs, you see who's the quickest of them all !!

Mike Nunan is arranging a day at MIRA where there will be many different suspensions to try not least std and modified cars with and without the roll bars.

With one driver, Don Palmer in all the cars, an unbiased verdict is guaranteed!

kind regards

Ben

R19KET

Well, I've spent FAR too much time, and money trying to get the car set up the way "I" like it.

I'd got to this point, thanks to SS/Leda, and a LOT of trial, and error, and 2.5/2.75 deg' neg'front camber. The car was fantastic, be it "track" orientated, and maybe a little harsh on some roads.

The downside: well the front tyres (S02's) were barely lasting 7k, OUCH !!!!!.

So hearing about the ALK, had it fitted, believing that I would be able to reduce the front camber, and still retain grip. WRONG.

Understeer was horrendous. With Leda's help, various cambers/toes were tried, to no avail.

Next up, ARB's, these would surely solve the problem. Well fitting a stiffer front ARB would certainly create more understeer, so just the back was fitted, with the links.

YUK !!!!!. In the damp/wet, it was race between the front, and the back to see who could "let go first". Back to Leda.

After discussing with Dave at Leda the problems, and him going out to see for himself, the ALK has come back off. IMO, and Daves, it just doesn't work with the Leda suspension.

The car is almost back to where I started, all bar (no pun) the rear ARB, and rear links. I'm pretty certain the links are coming off very soon.

I'm sure on a standard car, the ALK, ARB's, etc', work very well, but with Leda they just seem to fight each other.

I'm now resigned to getting 7k out of the front tyres, and just having to put up with a car that handles brilliantly the way I first had it !!!!!!. I'm also buying shares in Bridgestone.

Mark.

AndyMc

Hello again and thanks for the replies

I'm pleased to say that I think I have sorted my problems. Yesterday I had my geometry adjusted at Demon Tweeks. They reduced the front camber from one degree neg to half a degree neg and reset the tracking to 1 MM total toe in.
It turns out that fitting the ALK added a fair bit of toe in to the front, which was probably adding to the problem.

The car now feels much better,the adjustability has come back and the understeer in the wet has gone although I have yet to test it fully. Unfortunately I don't know if it was the camber or the toe that was to blame or a combination of them both.

For info the ALK changed the geometry as follows

Caster
before
left 2*56'
right 3*10'

After ALK
left3*11'
right3*30'

Toe in
before
total 0*10'
left 0*05'
right 0*05'

After
total 0*41'
left 0*14'
right 0*27'

The kit was supposed to add 0.5 degrees of caster (30 mins) but it seems to have added less.

Tim,I like the car to have some lift off oversteer.I may try some rear toe in if I find there is too much.I wonder if you need more than me due to your stiffer suspension and less forgiving mechanical rear LSD compared to my viscous diff?

Stuart,I have tried toe out on the rear and it certainly did make it a bit unsettled at the back.The car was better at lower speeds but after a big moment at a three figure speed I decided it was not for me!

Gavin, I think the rear sway bar links will be my next mod.I thought it would be interesting to see what difference just the ALK made.

The kit also claims to increase traction out of tight corners by reducing lift at the front and this is certainly noticeable with the chassis staying flatter.The car now rockets out of the corner with no wheelspin and without losing the back end.It has to be said that Impreza's are very good in this area anyway.Maybe the more powerful cars will benefit more.

Noise wise the stiffer bushes do transmit more NVH (noise,vibration,harshness) to the cabin but its not to bad.

I will post again when I have done more miles

Andy

PS Where did Marks post come from!
Maybe Mark is right and I'm wasting my time.
Time will tell

[This message has been edited by AndyMc (edited 27-01-2000).]

R19KET

Andy,

Please remember my comments, experiences, are based on having Leda.

Mark

AndyMc

Sorry about that it does not read the way I meant it to.I was just trying to say that I might end up near to where I started just as you have done

GavinP

Mark,

I am interested in your comment about the ALK and the Leda suspension "fighting" each other.

As I understand it, if you increase the roll resistance, you reduce the understeer but you also ultimately, lower the level of grip. This would seem to be the point that Pete makes with his post.

Am I understanding this correctly ? I would be the first to admit that I know very little about the subject apart from the experiences with my car (94WRX, standard dampers/springs, ALK and rear ARB links).

Would I also be right in saying that if you have a car with firmer suspension and fit uprated ARBs, links or ALK that you can eventually have the result of just reducing grip ?

Always willing to learn...

Thanks

Gavin

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Let me put words into Pete's mouth

As I understand it, increasing roll resistance will maximise the contact patch of the tyre up to the physical limits of the absolute grip, flex of the tyre wall, ultimate roll stifness....

....good up to a point. The absolute grip will be HIGHER...

...BUT when it lets go, the tranference from grip to slip will be much less benign than with the standard suspension.

So as Pete says, when it lets go you will have to react so much faster to catch it, and ultimately the car will be less adjustable on the throttle - a very enjoyable characteristic of the Scooby.

I would also caution against Benny's comment that with increased roll stiffness you may never find the limit of grip on a normal road...

...the problem it you will and to mis-quote CAR magazine, when you do find the limit of grip you are in the middle of an accident!


With less roll stifness, the tyre will start to 'tip over' introducing scrub, which is a relatively high grip slide - this is the basic character of the car, which is fun and safe(r).

David

steve McCulloch

I am now somewhat confused. Are we saying that the ALK is crap?

I hope not, my mate Andy McLean, is having some suspension tweaks done by Scoobymania to his STI5 (same as mine).

Andy seems to get the impression that Ben at Scoobymania knows what he is talking about.

The problem with the STI 5, not being technically minded, is that the cars handling is best described as sh*te. If you take a bend too fast the back end twithes very badly, and in trying to correct itself it can sometimes let loose and cause the car to swerve from left to right and back again several times until you manage to get the car back in a straight line. We were in the car a few weeks ago on a country road and on the bends the car was all over the place. It loves to go straight on in bends, and if you want it to go into a bend it twitches very badly at the rear end - I can only describe the standard set up as very dangerous. The handling on the limit is well known so that you dont drive fast into bends, but when an Escort Cosworth is on your back, its very embarrasing to have to slow down, especially when the Cossie then overtakes you on the f**king bend!

I await the results on my mates car then I will be able to see if it is worthwhile doing on mine, along with what is now an obligatory Possum Link ECU change(as with my mates).

Will fitting the ALK and anti roll bar, etc mean that my tires wont last very long? what will the cars handling be like in the wet - I dont want a car that is even more twitchy than before - e.g I dont want it to react violently if I go into a bend too fast - eg flip completely at the back end - will putting proper suspension sort out the Scooby's problems - e.g current Prodrive set up seems to have no complaints?

RichiB

Bumpsteer is something that manufacturers engineer into cars to cause them to understeer. They seem to think that this is safer than oversteer for people who cant drive. It is basicly a toe change at the wheel when the suspension moves up and down from its neutral position. Predominatly toeing out on compression

Rich

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Steve,

I also have an STi V that I have done 14,000 miles in...

...IMHO the handling is not quite as 'bad' or as 'dangerous' as you suggest - however I may not be driving it quite as extremely.

Nevertheless, I would agree that the handling was 'twitchy'. I have since fitted the ALK and solid rear links - the handling is transformed.

I find the car is much more responsive, supple even - although roll is stiffer and the understeer is much more under control.

A well recommended combination of bits.

Am considering the adjustable rear ARB - notwithstanding comments above about roll stiffness.

So, Steve, try it out, the combination seems to work particularly well on the Sti V and other Scooby drivers seem to think that my car handles pretty well.

David

RichiB

I recently set up a scoob (STI3) that was understeering quite badly. The customer had tried everything to eliminate it. I ran through a few basic checks we carry out on race cars and found the bumpsteer to be massive. We managed to dial it out which totaly neutralised the handeling. Nice!!!!

Rich

steve McCulloch

Rannoch

Thanks for that. I'll wait the results/test drive my mates car then I'll see if its worth it - certainly a lot cheaper than going for a suspension overhaul (- e.g Leda - which on Cossies is crap anyway, and ends up being constantly adjusted back at the factory to get the right set up - IMHO)

RichiB

What is bumpsteer?

AndyMc

RichiB

How is bumpsteer adjusted on the scooby?.

I thought it could only be achieved by changing the locating/pivot points of the suspension,especially the steering rack and track rod ends.
Do you mean that you checked to make sure the rack was central so that each track-rod was the same length and bumpsteer was equal on each side?

Andy

RichiB

Andy

We got it all ironed out by shimming the rack to a new position.

It takes about 2hrs to do but this does include re-setting the cambers and toe's all round as well.

Rich

MorayMackenzie

... And it makes a amazing difference to the cars handling. The car really is extremely well balanced now on standard STI 3 suspension.

I went to RichiB with the intention of getting the geometry sorted. He asked how I wanted the car to drive, poked around a bit here and there, set the geometry up to his own recommendations, removed the bumpsteer and I drove a completely different car home.

The car now exhibits very neutral handling, not to much understeer and enough power oversteer, if you want it.

I took the car to Don Palmer's MIRA wet handling day where Simon-De-Bank and Don Palmer both drove it. Simon reckoned it was the best setup impreza he had ever driven. Don was also impressed.

Moray

AndyMc

Bugger,something else to fiddle with besides camber,caster and toe.

AndyMc

I have now done 400 miles in the wet/dry over my favourite roads and can better describe how the car has changed after fitting the ALK

If you want to know if I think it is a worthwhile mod the answer is YES I do,my opinions are below

Difference in handling

--The overall steady state cornering grip is much improved
--There is a lot more front end grip exiting corners especially under power(it seems to hang on forever)
--There is a bit more front end grip entering corners but not as much as I hoped for and its still easy to provoke medium throttle understeer
--There is a reduction in lift off oversteer
and the back end doesn't feel as if its helping as much through the corners.I didn't want this to change and prefered it the way it was.(I'm sure the car is safer though!)
--In the wet the balance has moved slightly towards understeer but this is more than compensated for by the higher grip available
--And there is less power oversteer in the wet.

Difference in steering feel
--The self centering action is a lot stronger giving the steering a spring-loaded feel.I didn't like this at first especially at higher speeds where the steering felt weird.
Its surprising how much info you actually get from the weight of the steering and its taken quite a few miles to re-learn what its telling me!

To sum up I think it is worth the money but remember to get your geometry checked after fitting and don't expect miracles.

Hope my posts have helped

Andy

Pete Croney

I'm a bit behind on following this thread...

Rannoch - thanks, that's pretty much how I would have put it.

I would add that decent suspension will always be better than stiff ARB's etc, as it will keep the car "throttle adjustable" beyond the limit of adhesion, not just up to it. In case you are wondering why, one of the main reasons is that the stiffer the ARB's, the less independant your suspension is. So when you hit a bump with your outside rear, mid corner, not only does it unweight the outside wheel, but a stiff ARB will also unweight the inside wheel... need I elaborate further?