mike_nunan

Just read the EVO 4x4 group test. I found it raised more questions than it answered, so I thought I’d try and open a discussion about it here. Sorry, but this is likely to be a long post

<fx: anorak *ON*>

Firstly, I suspect the RB5 might have the Prodrive suspension pack. It looks lowered to me, especially on the front cover shot (and yes, I’m trying my best to take into account the effect of the bigger rims, but the rolling radius is about the same and there’s less gap showing on the RB5). They made one mistake in the text (see next para) so maybe they got this wrong as well. Anyone from EVO here to comment, or perhaps someone who knows the RB5 owner?

I’m not sure about EVO’s subjective judgement of the gripping abilities of the various cars. They won’t be the first people to say “gripped better” when they meant “gave me enough confidence to go faster”. I’ll bet a night out that the RB5 won’t go round a 100ft radius marked circle more than 2mph quicker than the “less grippy” STi5.

Next up, the text says that the RB5 runs “wider Pirellis” but it ain’t so: they’re 205 width just the same as the 16s. The profile is lower, so maybe that’s why they broke away more predictably on the smooth test track surface. The balance might swing the other way on a rough patch of secondary road.

Interestingly, the MIRA test results seem contradict some of our accepted wisdom regarding wet-weather set-up. Wide tyres and stiff suspension are meant to be bad in the wet, but the 22B and both Mitsubishis (all running 225 width rubber and rock-hard springs) come out well. Is it again the artificial benefit of a super-smooth track? But what about water displacement with those wide tyres? My best guess is that the disadvantage is minimal while you’ve still got loads of tread depth left, but if you’re running half-worn tyres you might have more problems.

Also, most people here don’t seem to like Pirellis, but the Bridgestone-equipped Imprezas didn’t fare as well at MIRA. Are the “elastic feel” and “skittishness” of the standard set-up down to the 16inch Bridgestones more than any other factor? That must be true, if the RB5 really is running standard suspension, as the wheels are the only change to the running gear from the standard 99MY. Maybe it’s worth having 17s just for the 45-profile tyres, never mind the width (Mike Tuckwood, you have full permission to laugh your head off if I end up buying some after all I’ve said against them – but they do mention sudden breakaway as one of the 22B’s worse characteristics in the conclusion, so maybe I can still hold up my head in public!)

I came away with a couple of firm conclusions of my own, though. For one thing, I won’t bother “upgrading” to a car with AYC or any other computer-controlled brake intervention or torque distribution system. The test seems to prove that these systems make the limit more accessible but lead to less manageable behaviour when you cross it. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, and I must admit I’m surprised – I really did believe the hype that they make cars more predicable at the limit. Maybe things will be better in a couple of years…

Anyway, my main conclusion from all this is relevant to the many folks ’round here who make changes to their chassis set-up: if even a comparatively minor change like going from 50-profile tyres to 45-profile can have such a pronounced effect, imagine how far things like LEDA suspension, anti-lift kits etc. can move your car’s handling away from standard. Magazines don’t really conduct these kind of in-depth tests on modified cars, and although track days give us a chance to get nearer the limit, even there we don’t necessarily get the full picture.

Perhaps EVO or another magazine would be interested in doing a proper comparison test of Impreza handling mods? Our cars must be among the most often modified on the road at the moment, so the interest level has to be there. Failing that, how about an SIDC trip to MIRA or Millbrook, so we can drive around in circles on the parade ground and find out if our car really does “oversteer” like we think it does?

Right, that’s enough waffle by far. Awaiting comments with interest…

-= mike =-

PS. I’d really love it if anyone from EVO would like to comment on some of the points here – is that outside policy or can you wade in?

Mike Tuckwood

Mike.

Laugh? Wouldn't dream of it.

Jonathan

I spoke to Mike Woods at Prodrive. No the press car doesnt have the Prodrive suspension fitted. The 17" wheels do seem to fill the arches quite well with std suspension, better than some other Impreza with the same mods. Maybe its just the colour !!.

Jonathan

Mike Tuckwood

Did the Toyota rally team admit to fiddling with the air restrictors in their rally cars?

<I>Just before being banned from rallying for a year for fiddling with their air restrictors)?</I>

Mike.

HammerTime

Love the idea of a trip to MIRA!!!!

I rang them yesterday to find out how to hire the place.

The guy I spoke to was less than helpful, but I did get a bit of info.

1) Costs

£900 for 4 hours
£200 for each additional 2 hours
+VAT

2) Insurance

This sounds like it may be a bit of a stumbling block. The guy said "Well, you need to have proof that you are insured." I said "Fair enough, what do I need to get insurance for?". He said "Well, for anything that might happen." I said "OK... Um... Like what? If I am going to get insurance I need to tell the insurance company what to insure against and how much." He said "Well you just need enough to cover anything which might happen." This carried on for about 5 minutes until I gave up.

3) Who can hire the circuit

It is mainly used for large motoring orgs like car companies etc for testing of prototypes and the like. They have a rule that they allow no privateers on the circuit so any group would have to be able to display a ligitimate reason for being there.


Over to you... any ideas? Who would be interested? Anyone with more reliable info?

I think the wet handling circuit would be great for testing the scooby's handling without chewing up a set of tyres every ten minutes, etc.

c-ya

Hammer

jeremy

I think that the Evo 4x14 test was quite revealing, in fact probably more revealing than any other road test I have ever read, in terms of highlighting the difficulties testers have in describing the handling dynamics of a car. Whereas most magazines simply seek to economize their words by making the test read for one particular ideology, and 'forcing' the results to dovetail with that bias. For example, it is now clear that Autocar are in love with the Evo 6. Sutcliffe and co. (who by the way never ever seem to disagree with one another) are in love with the cars handling competence. They effuse constantly about its ability to conquer any road at such speed as no other car before has yet to. Additionally they constantly bias their tests with concepts like 'body control', again another handling ability which fits in well with overall competence.
-However now what Evo have done is actually brought a few good drivers together and taken a merely 'great' handling car in the form of the RB-5, and a 'perfect' handling car in the form of the Evo 6rs, and brought them together in a back to back comparison on demanding wet wales roads. And suddenly other factors came into play-such as, 'if the Evo 6 is so damn good a handler then how come I can't feel where I am with the car, how come I feel compelled not to drive this car as hard as the RB-5?' Yes indeed Evo have exposed the supposed perfection of cars like the Evo 6 (read..BMW M3mk2, M5 mk3)in documenting that such cars do not posses an adequite envelope of warning and dimishishment of grip before the car rips off the road into oblivion. Evo have exposed the reader to the idea, that no the road tester is not perfect, and no neither are the roads in which we drive our cars.

Nic Doczi

Well I read the EVO article a couple of days ago and thought:
1. What do I have to do to my STI V to make it handle like an RB5 - change the crap S01s, go to 17", LEDA. I was surprised they tested teh STI as standard while several other cars were optioned.
2. Did the drivers really know how to drive these cars to their best? Maybe they did, but I went on a Porsche 911 driving day at MIRAS in June. One part was being driven around the handling curcuit in a 911 Carerra 4, just like they tested. I was lucky enough to be taken around by the little Scots Le Mans driver (McNeish) and he was stunning - had the car sideways much of the time - and this was in the dry! So in the wet, it would maybe be more pronouncd, or perhaps less, what do I know. Anyway, did the EVO drivers really know how to get the best out of each car?

PS The track was very smooth

Nic